Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[marflao]

24 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

For this reason, @marflao, I would suggest preserving the emails you receive for the spreadsheet in a separate folder, to facilitate contact between all of us and the AG’s office if/when needed.

 

Yep...they remain in the extra gmail account (defraudedbylhl) I created.

[marflao]

53 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I personally think a complaint to the division of the California Attorney General’s office that handles consumer affairs would be the most appropriate procedure and stand the best chance of success.  So now imagine making the initial contact with the AG’s office, and instead of an individual with a phone complaint, you have documentation of hundreds of people not getting millions of dollars worth of stuff they paid for 4-5 years ago.

 

That’s a reason to have a spreadsheet.

 

That's what I also thought would be the reason having this spreadsheet. 

But I'm afraid it won't be much of use if there aren't enough participants.

 

I would guess the AG needs a kind of critical mass for this sheet; not sure if this would be amount of money or number of backers or both.

But currently we're far away from this critical mass which will give a big smile on Larry's face.

 

Hence let the info coming 😉

 

 

[stuck limo]

4 hours ago, marflao said:

But currently we're far away from this critical mass which will give a big smile on Larry's face.

 

That's not how that worked or works. Larry is fully aware of what the backers are attempting to do, he's fully aware of the activity in this thread, and the spreadsheet and the intent of the spreadsheet. He was fine with the existence of the sheet.

[Racerxnet]

If LH can crowd fund for money on undeliverable goods why can't you crowdfund for legal services. Hmmm. 

[marflao]

19 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

That's not how that worked or works. Larry is fully aware of what the backers are attempting to do, he's fully aware of the activity in this thread, and the spreadsheet and the intent of the spreadsheet. He was fine with the existence of the sheet.

 

Maybe I made my post not clear enough: the critical mass is for the AG. 

If we don't get more participants to join the spreadsheet the critical mass won't be accomplished which would give a grin to Larry's face. 

[stuck limo]

7 minutes ago, marflao said:

 

Maybe I made my post not clear enough: the critical mass is for the AG. 

If we don't get more participants to join the spreadsheet the critical mass won't be accomplished which would give a grin to Larry's face. 

 

Again, there was no grinning involved at any point, nor do I expect there will be, regardless of the outcome. That's why we literally offered to help you/the backers involved on the list. You can do whatever you want with the list; we don't care. We just offered to help with it from our end.

[bernardperu]

13 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Again, there was no grinning involved at any point, nor do I expect there will be, regardless of the outcome. That's why we literally offered to help you/the backers involved on the list. You can do whatever you want with the list; we don't care. We just offered to help with it from our end.

 

This is the grinning Ho when Jarek asks him for a raise.

 

[PeterSt]

Guys, you don't get it.

 

5 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

We just offered to help with it from our end.

 

Larry offers to give you the list of paid invoices which remained unfulfilled. Next you can return it with the address details for shipping.

[PeterSt]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

you have documentation of hundreds of people not getting millions of dollars worth of stuff they paid for 4-5 years ago.

 

The math isn't exactly fitting. You need 1000s of people for that figure. Or cut a zero from that figure. 

[tmtomh]

5 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Again, there was no grinning involved at any point, nor do I expect there will be, regardless of the outcome. That's why we literally offered to help you/the backers involved on the list. You can do whatever you want with the list; we don't care. We just offered to help with it from our end.

 

Does or does not LH have a list of the people who have paid for products, and whether or not they have received them?

[The Computer Audiophile]

16 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

Does or does not LH have a list of the people who have paid for products, and whether or not they have received them?

Not sure I’d take such a list at face value 😳

[tmtomh]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure I’d take such a list at face value 😳

 

Be that as it may, I'm just trying fo find out from @LHCommSquad if LH even has such a list. I would assume they do. But if they don't, then they are really in big trouble.

[stuck limo]

19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure I’d take such a list at face value 😳

 

Hi Chris, of course they have a list and an order system. However, due to multiple system shuffles before my time, many records were lost and the records are not exact. This is why we've asked people who have not received merchandise or who don't see their records or invoices in our system to check with us. (and before it gets mentioned, yes, the storefront is down for an undetermined amount of time, the backend still exists with order information, and any questions can be submitted via ticket or email or PM or whatever)

[Ray@_@]

Please tell us why did Larry has time to develop another product but can not deliver the products to all backers？

 

Larry has money and time to develop a new product but can not send vi dac, wave and source to backers. He is a liar and stole all of our money.

Please full refund to all backers asap.

[tmtomh]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Hi Chris, of course they have a list and an order system. However, due to multiple system shuffles before my time, many records were lost and the records are not exact. This is why we've asked people who have not received merchandise or who don't see their records or invoices in our system to check with us. (and before it gets mentioned, yes, the storefront is down for an undetermined amount of time, the backend still exists with order information, and any questions can be submitted via ticket or email or PM or whatever)

 

Wow.

 

@Jud, @marflao, and anyone else who's interested: An Attorney General is likely to be quite interested to learn that not only did the company apparently take orders for new campaigns without having fulfilled the old ones, and seemingly not account for the money transparently - but based on the bolded statement above, it also doesn't even have complete or reliable records showing who is still owed merchandise.

 

I fully believe @LHCommSquad that this is the result of incompetence rather than any malicious intent - but from where I sit (and I am not a legal professional, just a layperson), it seems like a level of negligence that would potentially open up LH to serious civil liability, and when combined with the other circumstances of the situation,  perhaps even criminal prosecution.

 

Appalling. Just appalling.

[kelvinwsy]

Hey everyone I wont even waste my time sending images of my paypal receipt for my Wave Xfi to LH Labs.... Do we hear a publuc announcement.. Hey the stuff we claimto be designing and building us due for shipping.. Contact us for your orders ! 

Everyone let us Move On!!!

[Jud]

11 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

The math isn't exactly fitting. You need 1000s of people for that figure. Or cut a zero from that figure. 

 

Yes, I know.  (I thought about the math as well!   ). But here is how I viewed it: (1) It would be relatively easy to show that millions were collected from publicly available information. (2) I am hopeful we would eventually be able to get information for up to a couple of hundred people for the spreadsheet.

[Jud]

9 hours ago, tmtomh said:

 

Wow.

 

@Jud, @marflao, and anyone else who's interested: An Attorney General is likely to be quite interested to learn that not only did the company apparently take orders for new campaigns without having fulfilled the old ones, and seemingly not account for the money transparently - but based on the bolded statement above, it also doesn't even have complete or reliable records showing who is still owed merchandise.

 

I fully believe @LHCommSquad that this is the result of incompetence rather than any malicious intent - but from where I sit (and I am not a legal professional, just a layperson), it seems like a level of negligence that would potentially open up LH to serious civil liability, and when combined with the other circumstances of the situation,  perhaps even criminal prosecution.

 

Appalling. Just appalling.

 

In fact LHL has said the same thing virtually from the end of the campaigns or soon after. There have been at least two prior requests to correct order information in LHL’s system for the Wave (the only campaign I’ve received updates for), IIRC.

[Jud]

11 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure I’d take such a list at face value 😳

 

The list of those who have received is quite a lot shorter than the list of those who’ve paid. 😉

[Blake]

Larry is in breach of contract. There is a binding contract between the Campaign Owner and each Contributor, as per Indiegogo terms of service: 

 

When you, as a Campaign Owner creates a Campaign on the Site and asks for Contributions, you understand that you are entering into separate legal agreements with both Indiegogo and with Contributors, and the following rules apply (in addition to the all other Terms and Additional Policies)

Creating and Running a Campaign

 

As a Campaign Owner, you are entering into a legal agreement with a Contributor when they make a Contribution to your Campaign, which includes the following obligations (in addition to the all other Terms and Additional Policies):

1. 1. Make good faith efforts to fulfill the Perks associated with a Campaign in the timeframe that is communicated to Contributors.
   2. Immediately notify Contributors if there are obstacles or delays.
   3. Respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to them by Contributors.
   4. Provide substantive and quality updates at least once a month to Contributors.
   5. If you have received the Contributions from your Campaign, issue refunds to Contributors if you cannot deliver Perks.
   6. Comply with all applicable laws and regulations in the use of Contributions and delivery of Perks.
   7. Comply with EEA Data Controller Obligations. As a Campaign Owner, you (and Indiegogo) will independently fulfill all duties required of data controllers under applicable EEA data protection law (such law shall include, but not be limited to, the EU General Data Protection Regulation (Regulation (EU) 2016/679) (“GDPR”); (iii) the EU e-Privacy Directive (Directive 2002/58/EC), including subsequent variations, such as the Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council concerning the respect for private life and the protection of personal data in electronic communications and repealing Directive 2002/58/EC (“ePrivacy Regulation”), if enacted).

 

Looking at the Indigogo Terms of Service posted above:

 

1. No court will interpret Section 1.e. to mean that Larry has an unlimited time to deliver.  Pursuant to Section 1.e., Larry is legally obligated to issue refunds.

2. Under Section 1.a. Larry has to make good faith efforts to deliver within the time frame promised.  See the last progress chart pasted above. Note the straight out lie with respect to the claimed number of Vi Dac Infinity units shipped!

3. LHL collected shipping charges for the Vi DAC years ago.

4. Larry also breached Sections 1.b, c and d.  All consistent communications ended long ago.  

 

Larry used to be a nice guy, focused on quality products and customer service.  Those days are long over.  He stole our money and has no intention of giving it back.  He wakes up each day and lies to himself, thinking he can miraculously turn things around.  That is not going to happen.  Just look at the Light Harmonic website, check out the list of vendors.  Go to each vendor site and you will see none of them are selling Light Harmonic.  The gig is up.   If he issued refunds years ago, he would still have a viable audio business.  

 

Larry almost certainly used, or is using the funds he received for undelivered products to keep his doors open and pay his rent and mortgage.  Now it is time to make Larry's life absolutely miserable.  

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Has anyone contacted the crowdfunding platform(s)?

[Blake]

In addition to breach of contract.....

 

Here is a primer on the crime of embezzlement under California law:

 

https://aizmanlaw.com/white-collar-crime/embezzlement/

 

Larry, you might want to contact the Aizman Law firm, or perhaps another criminal defense attorney closer to your home.  Just make sure you don't use funds from undelivered products to pay your legal bills.

 

 

 

 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

Larry is in breach of contract. There is a binding contract between the Campaign Owner and each Contributor, as per Indiegogo terms of service: 

 

When you, as a Campaign Owner creates a Campaign on the Site and asks for Contributions, you understand that you are entering into separate legal agreements with both Indiegogo and with Contributors, and the following rules apply (in addition to the all other Terms and Additional Policies)

Creating and Running a Campaign

 

As a Campaign Owner, you are entering into a legal agreement with a Contributor when they make a Contribution to your Campaign, which includes the following obligations (in addition to the all other Terms and Additional Policies):

1. 1. Make good faith efforts to fulfill the Perks associated with a Campaign in the timeframe that is communicated to Contributors.
   2. Immediately notify Contributors if there are obstacles or delays.
   3. Respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to them by Contributors.
   4. Provide substantive and quality updates at least once a month to Contributors.
   5. If you have received the Contributions from your Campaign, issue refunds to Contributors if you cannot deliver Perks.
   6. Comply with all applicable laws and regulations in the use of Contributions and delivery of Perks.
   7. Comply with EEA Data Controller Obligations. As a Campaign Owner, you (and Indiegogo) will independently fulfill all duties required of data controllers under applicable EEA data protection law (such law shall include, but not be limited to, the EU General Data Protection Regulation (Regulation (EU) 2016/679) (“GDPR”); (iii) the EU e-Privacy Directive (Directive 2002/58/EC), including subsequent variations, such as the Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council concerning the respect for private life and the protection of personal data in electronic communications and repealing Directive 2002/58/EC (“ePrivacy Regulation”), if enacted).

 

Looking at the Indigogo Terms of Service posted above:

 

1. No court will interpret Section 1.e. to mean that Larry has an unlimited time to deliver.  Pursuant to Section 1.e., Larry is legally obligated to issue refunds.

2. Under Section 1.a. Larry has to make good faith efforts to deliver within the time frame promised.  See the last progress chart pasted above. Note the straight out lie with respect to the claimed number of Vi Dac Infinity units shipped!

3. LHL collected shipping charges for the Vi DAC years ago.

4. Larry also breached Sections 1.b, c and d.  All consistent communications ended long ago.  

 

Larry used to be a nice guy, focused on quality products and customer service.  Those days are long over.  He stole our money and has no intention of giving it back.  He wakes up each day and lies to himself, thinking he can miraculously turn things around.  That is not going to happen.  Just look at the Light Harmonic website, check out the list of vendors.  Go to each vendor site and you will see none of them are selling Light Harmonic.  The gig is up.   If he issued refunds years ago, he would still have a viable audio business.  

 

Larry almost certainly used, or is using the funds he received for undelivered products to keep his doors open and pay his rent and mortgage.  Now it is time to make Larry's life absolutely miserable.  

 

 

I agree with just about all of this.  One question and one suggestion:

 

- I assume your Vi DAC Infinity (solid state) was never shipped.  Are you aware of others?

 

- Suggestion: Contract suits cost money.  The AG's office doesn't.

[Jud]

Speaking of delivery dates, anyone else get a message like this from LHL (this one dated May 10, 2016)?

 

Quote

 

Hello Jud,

 

First and foremost I wanted to thank you for all your support and patience. I know its been a long wait, but wanted to assure you that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I apologize, but per Indiegogo's Terms of Use  and ours, I am unable to issue a refund for your purchase. We collect funds for the development of a product to take to market. That is why you are getting this unit at our cost and not the anticipated retailed price. If we offered refunds development and production will indefinitely be pushed back with less and less dollars to use for the product.

 

Larry has been releasing updates regarding the Wave and IEM-X on the Geek Wave campaign page on IGG: 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-wave-a-no-compromise-portable-music-player/x/12653888#/updates

 

Currently since the Wave is in the final stages of R&D, a shipping estimate will be released by Larry once the Wave reaches production. Production has estimated this will happen in Q4 2016. 

 

Again we appreciate your support and if you have any additional questions or concerns, or if I missed anything, please let me know.

 

Take care,

XXXXXXX

Customer Happiness Agent

 

10600 Industrial Ave, Suite 120

Roseville, CA  95748

Go to http://www.lhlabs.com and Join our Geek Force!

 

[Jud]

And then speaking of updates and further of delivery dates, I have them for the Geek Wave campaign going back to Kickstarter.  Here's a snippet from a November 2014 update:

 

Quote

 

When Are We Going to Start Shipping Geek Wave?

We're on track for March of 2015. In the coming days, we'll post a detailed status of our progress, which Jeff (the Geek Wave lead engineer, under Larry, of course) is confirming now.  We'll also have a prototype circuit board to show you soon, too!