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which quality USB cable to consider?


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Interesting thread to follow for many reasons.  Some folks feel that they are empirically correct by saying there isn't a difference.  Measurements have gotten better and better over the years and we have had to learn to do different measuring over time due to new developments.  

 

If they feel it has no bearing, then good for them, their point has been made and the rest is for us to enjoy.  I listen to a lot of different systems in a lot of different rooms.  I feel that digital is the one place for me where any change can be larger than switching out an interconnect, cord or cable.  For my ear, I find that the Audioquest Diamond cable the TotalDac cable as well as some hand draw solid silver cables have made the most positive differences.  Again, just MY EARS and in many systems.  I hear the Diamond a lot and it's always as neutral as it gets.  I like it a lot more than their own Carbon, which is a great cable in most systems as some aren't quite as revealing as others.  The TotalDac cable is also highly musical.  It's a warm and highly revealing cable similar to the Diamond cable.  The noise floor of the Total Dac Cable may be a bit quieter, but I've heard it both ways in different systems.  

 

I'd be very happy with either.  I have had the Diamond in my system with my Ayre QX5/20 as well as with Dave and some other DAC's I've had in and out of the system.  I have always liked it better than the other cables I've run through the mill.  I"m going to purchase one this week most probably.  Great thread and no right or wrong answers.

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http://mvicha.sweb.cz/test USB kabelu.pdf
http://mvicha.sweb.cz/test USB kabelu 2014.pdf

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23024-Why-Do-Different-USB-Cables-Sound-Different&p=448050&viewfull=1#post448050

Quote

The issue isn't the ones & zeroes - they are delivered as expected. What seems to be different between cables is the signal waveform of the digital signal arriving at the receiver.

There are a number of ways this signal waveform can be different but the USB standard specifies a range of acceptable distortion in this waveform - basically the USB standard defines a 'safe' level of distortion in the signal waveform that will avoid bit errors i.e. the ones & zeroes will be correctly received by the receiver.

 

Now a USB cable doesn't just carry the USB signal on two wires within the cable - it also has 2 additional wires in the cable, ground & 5V power & finally has a shield. These two wires & shield further complicate matters when it comes to signal integrity. All can carry noise between the PC & the USB receiving device - noise is just another signal waveform distortion as is jitter - neither of these issues affect the delivery of the digital bits (once within the acceptable range of the USB standard).

 

In my experience when there are changes in these factors it can often have an audible effect. Cables can change the noise spectra on the cable, on the cable shield, on the signal wires, on the ground & power wires - all/some of which can have audible effects.

 

I haven't listened to expensive USB cables but have used a cable which is made to suppress EMI noise - http://kgs-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/products/pdf/LNC-Noise-Suppression-USB20-Cable.pdf

 

This cable is not an audiophile offering - it is made for use in airlines, I believe & consists of a flexible ferrite compound fully covering surrounding the 4 USB wires. For those addicted to measurements, look at the noise measurements on the linked page - it shows the reduction in noise in the frequency range 50MHz to 1,000MHz. Now how could reduction in noise in these frequencies have audible effects in the audible range? Objectivists need to be inquisitive enough to investigate but they don't have the necessary motivated or skills, it would appear

 

This was noticeably quieter than my other USB cables but had the side effect of somewhat audibly softening high frequencies. This is not that surprising, as those who have tried ferrous rigs on USB will no doubt attest to.

 

A conversation with Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin, and Steve Silberman
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/16172-a-conversation-with-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman/

 

 

Gordon Rankin Says I'm Wrong About USB Cable Sound!
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/20226-gordon-rankin-says-im-wrong-about-usb-cable-sound/

 

There's no such thing as digital: A conversation with Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin, and Steve Silberman
https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft

 

 

There's no such thing as digital: A conversation with Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin, and Steve Silberman. Part 2
https://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p

 

Q&A with John Swenson. Part 1: What is Digital?
https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

 

Q&A with John Swenson. Part 2: Are Bits Just Bits?
https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

 

Q&A with John Swenson. Part 3: How bit-perfect software can affect sound
https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound

 

Cables, Bits, and Noise: How Cables Can Make A Sound Difference
https://www.audiostream.com/content/cables-bits-and-noise-how-cables-can-make-sound-difference


The "Bits Are Bits" Fallacy and Noise In Mixed Signal Systems
https://www.audiostream.com/content/bits-are-bits-fallacy-and-noise-mixed-signal-systems

 

Gordon Rankin on why USB audio quality varies
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies/

 

Digital Errors Don’t Affect Fidelity
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5971

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USB is a digital format and relies on a balanced and correctly terminated transmission line so that the pulses arrive at the other end in the same shape that started out as.

 

This is not an area where money has any effect, you just need the correctly made cable, so go to a computer shop and buy one from a brand you recognise. Ones with a ferrite on are often well designed.

 

Spending more than about $10 on any digital cable of shortish length is a total waste of money. That's not me saying that, it's the well established laws of physics and transmission line theory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line

 

Note that optical cable works on a different principle, but again cost is a non issue, you just need something that delivers enough light to the other end, $10 does this quite easily.

 

Spend the money you saved on some decent speakers or Mastered For iTunes tracks instead.

Battling the Loudness War with the SeeDeClip4 multi-user, decompressing, declipping streaming Music Server.

 

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BTW John Swenson's notes, while interesting are not so relevant to digital music in my experience.

 

His statement "At its heart digital is a way of looking at electrical voltages on a wire." might be his idea, but the heart of digital is not binary, its the use of numbers. All digital music is stored as a series of numbers, in the case of the uncompressed type that travels down USB cables to DACs it's a very simple serial stream of numbers.

 

The DAC then gets loaded up with the number and outputs the corresponding analog voltage, usually around 44,100 times every second. 

 

A bit error is an error, and some USB cables are so poor they introduce bit errors, but they are rare. 

USB data will be decoded as a series of digital numbers, like 12, or 678, or 2782 etc.

 

No amount of money is going to change that digital number unless you get a bit error and instead of 2782 you get 19166 instead (which is bit 14 flipped) for instance. 

 

If you want to avoid earth loops and RF coupling etc coming down _with_ your digital data then use an optical link instead. Analog also falls into the trap of buying expensive cables, when the same money spent on better capacitors or amps has far more effect, effects that your wife may notice, rather than just your bank account.

Battling the Loudness War with the SeeDeClip4 multi-user, decompressing, declipping streaming Music Server.

 

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5 hours ago, CuteStudio said:

Ones with a ferrite on are often well designed.

 

Didn't you read the last post before you started typing ?

 

5 hours ago, CuteStudio said:

John Swenson's notes, while interesting are not so relevant to digital music in my experience

 

You could do a hell of a lot worse then studying everything you can find by this accomplished engineer and designer ! His thinking has been rendered into audio products that have changed minds and hearts to the better, and improved our day to day experience with our digital music systems. And that is not controversial !

 

I suggest that you need some more experience with this stuff. A good way to start is to read, listen, and learn, before opening ones mouth and exposing ones ignorance. Not to worry, it is a very common thing that happens a lot here on CA. Newbies pop into the forum all the time thinking they know it all... Not !  I was silent, or just asked questions, here for years, before I felt confident enough in my knowledge to try and help others. And even then I made mistakes and had to suffer correction. But I persevered, and think I now have a fair grasp on the issues that interest me most.

 

Patience and humility are a much better environment for learning, IMHO.

 

BTW, Every single, different digital cable I have ever used has sounded differently, whether they were SPDIF, TOSLINK, or USB. And those differences were much greater then those of analog cables, like interconnects, or speaker wires. Of course, as a life long engineer/technician this didn't seem to make any sense, but my ears, and the vast majority of audiophiles, told me it was real. Along came John S., Alex C. and some other smart folk to start to explain what the physical mechanisms are the underlie the different performances of these cables.

 

In closing, I will also cast a vote for the Australian Curious USB cables as best-in-class !

 

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Thank-you for your thoughts Daudio, in fact I did read the last post and implicitly referenced it by mentioning the authors name of one of the links, and quoted it, as shown above.

 

Cable discussions are rather like a holy war and I can see I have already inadvertently inflamed you, for that I apologise, that was not my intention.

 

I can say however that beyond a certain (rather low) price I have never heard the slightest difference with any digital cable unless it was so bad it wouldn't work with a regular device like a disk caddy, camera either. I'm sorry for that, but I cannot pretend to hear stuff I don't.

 

I also see expensive stuff like the iPurifier bandied about with expensive cables, which at the end of the day will have around the same effect as a cheap ferrite one can clip around one's cable, or get a cable with one built in already. I have worked with RFI, EMI and switched mode PSU engineers so while I may appear ignorant to you, I am confident in both my knowledge and sources og knowledge for when I have written above.

 

Additionally you'll find that my comments about termination and impedance of the transmission line (that all USB and data cables form) correctly is backed up by Gordon Rankin - so now I am wondering if you actually read my posts - did you see where I mentioned that? Good impedance matching and ferrites are available in decent low cost USB cables, which is why logically I can see no reason to pay more.

 

Could you please explain to this young, ignorant, impatient chancer exactly HOW a USB cable of the correct impedance with an EMI suppression ferrite could be improved upon with extra money?

I'm am confused how transmission line theory (that I provided a link to) knows how much money the cable sold for, or what brand it was.

 

Thank-you in advance!

 

Battling the Loudness War with the SeeDeClip4 multi-user, decompressing, declipping streaming Music Server.

 

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1 hour ago, CuteStudio said:

Cable discussions are rather like a holy war and I can see I have already inadvertently inflamed you, for that I apologise, that was not my intention.

 

Not inflamed at all, just seen this before so many times...

 

You can talk theory all day long, there are tons of theories and interpretations, and calculations, and prioritization of them, that it can be hard to know what is important, and what isn't so much.  I'm not ignorant of a lot of it, but it's not my sole, or most important guide. I listen to my own ears, and those of many other trained (audiophile) ears. Neither approach is definitive, but together...  :)

 

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3 hours ago, CuteStudio said:

Thank-you for your thoughts Daudio, in fact I did read the last post and implicitly referenced it by mentioning the authors name of one of the links, and quoted it, as shown above.

 

Cable discussions are rather like a holy war and I can see I have already inadvertently inflamed you, for that I apologise, that was not my intention.

 

Thanks for joining the forum and expressing your views. You sound confident in your opinions, a good thing.

 

Don't be intimidated by the condescending, self-anoited experts here who call you ignorant and inexperienced, then preach patience and humility.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

What a shame this thread died because of a difference in experiences.

 

If you do not hear a difference between USB cables then you are lucky as you get to save your money.  That is valid advice for the thread originator.

If you do hear a difference then the cable that gave you that experience is what you would recommend to the thread originator.  That is also valid advice.

It is up to the thread originator as to which advice he/she wishes to take.

Flaming other posters is no help to the original question posed in this thread and sponsors disharmony which is in no ones interest.

 

PS*  Unfortunately (for my wallet) I do hear differences and recommend Curious Cables as the one that gives me the best experience. 9_9

 

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Does the type of cloth affect your ears? LOL

 

HiFi is always an emotive subject and often crosses the bounds of physics with things like $100 gold plated fuses and other such nonsense. 

 

The reason it does so it that it's not just physics, it is a large part perception. Perhaps you've noticed that one day the same gear can sound good, another day flat and boring. Often that isn't due to the mains quality or temperature, but due to the listener's mood. 

 

Just because the sound coming out of the speakers is _exactly_ the same with cheap USB cable A or super expensive USB cable B _does not_ mean people will not hear a difference. With a properly made cable the electronics will not know if it cost $10 or $1m, but YOU will, and YOU and the biggest factor in how something sounds: not the HiFi.

 

To keep one grounded in HiFi it's worth remembering a truism a musician once told me and it holds pretty much true in all cases: 'The Music Transcends The Medium'.

 

So when I explain that there IS no difference between correctly made cables at any price, of course the guy who's just shelled out $5,000 for a set of rather pointless interconnects is going to have a fit, that's just nature, but he is mis-interpreting what I and many others are saying: We are saying 'there is no difference to the sound', he on the other hand is saying that 'he notices a difference in the sound'.

 

Both points are perfectly correct, the emotion flares up when people think the two very different points are the same point: which they are not.

 

Battling the Loudness War with the SeeDeClip4 multi-user, decompressing, declipping streaming Music Server.

 

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1 hour ago, kilroy said:

Anyway the topic is not whether you're a believer. It's what cables to consider for those capable of discerning the differences.

No, the topic was to recommend a reasonably priced, quality USB cable. And it's appropriate to recommend a cheap, well-made USB cable if one recommending it hears no discernible differences with the higher-priced models. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make you right.

 

Here's the one that I've been very happy with, carrying DSD512:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003BXPQF2/

 

I've gone through a few cables and extenders, and even made my own custom cables by separating power and data. I can't hear the difference between these, except for a few very poorly made cables that produce obvious clicks and stuttering due to data loss.

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13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

No, the topic was to recommend a reasonably priced, quality USB cable. And it's appropriate to recommend a cheap, well-made USB cable if one recommending it hears no discernible differences with the higher-priced models. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make you right.

 

Here's the one that I've been very happy with, carrying DSD512:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003BXPQF2/

 

I've gone through a few cables and extenders, and even made my own custom cables by separating power and data. I can't hear the difference between these, except for a few very poorly made cables that produce obvious clicks and stuttering due to data loss.

 

The best "cable" I've yet found is the USPCB adapter UpTone throws in for free with the ISO Regen.  I believe at some point they plan on offering it separately in the twenty/thirtysomething dollar range.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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3 minutes ago, Jud said:

The best "cable" I've yet found is the USPCB adapter UpTone throws in for free with the ISO Regen.  I believe at some point they plan on offering it separately in the twenty/thirtysomething dollar range.

 

Jud, that's just a small adapter, right? You'll still need a cable to go with it. As I understand it, the point of this adapter to provide impedance matching or is there something else?

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5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Jud, that's just a small adapter, right? You'll still need a cable to go with it. As I understand it, the point of this adapter to provide impedance matching or is there something else?

 

You don't need a cable if you can position DAC and computer next to each other, but otherwise yes.

 

I don't recall if there's anything else it's supposed to do correctly besides impedance matching.

 

Speaking purely of my non-blinded subjective experience (whatever if any credence anyone wants to give that; I claim no golden ears or particular objectivity), I preferred it to a $135 cable I had for years, which in turn had replaced a $275 AQ Coffee.

 

I absolutely don't care to have this be the subject of arguments between folks on the forum.  I make no claims at all beyond listening non-blinded and feeling it sounded better than what I had.  Consider or ignore it as you like.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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2 hours ago, kilroy said:

 

That the signal is only 0s and 1s is an argument from 10 years ago. Most of us have gone beyond that and recognize cable materials, electrical properties etc. make a dramatic difference.

 

Anyway the topic is not whether you're a believer. It's what cables to consider for those capable of discerning the differences.

 

It is sometimes also the case that differences are not always immediately discernible, protracted listening and comparison (days or even weeks) is sometimes required.

So the idea of blind tests being the final arbiter is also (once again) disproven.

 

You have disproven nothing in your baseless and shallow post except that you lack any understanding of electronics whatsoever, not to mention listening tests and statistics.

 

Now enjoy your trolling on other posts.  It's all you have.

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2 hours ago, kilroy said:

for those capable of discerning the differences.

 

 

I'll refer you to my previous post, I understand you feel there are two classes of listener, the incapable, lower class with cloth ears who can't hear anything and those superior listeners who can tell - which would be you.

 

This of course is nonsense. Just because you believe you hear a difference doesn't mean there IS a difference.

Perception is a large part of HiFi, so to borrow your phrasing perhaps I should say:

 

"For those of us capable of understanding USB cables don't affect the sound"

 

But that's a tad aggressive and tribal. Everything affects the perceived quality of sound, the mind is a complex, emotional thing and the music itself contains emotion and messages. The chances of the same recording sounding the same on two different playings are remote: there will ALWAYS be differences.

 

Additionally before you get too hung up on jitter, digital cables, CPUs or disk drives I suggest you perhaps look at some of the waveforms you are playing in Audacity to see how natural you think they are. Select a good one, play it, and then visit a music shop and try hitting a snare drum, a piano key, and cymbal etc - and then come back and tell me how important a USB cable is.

 

Many people for example have made real improvements by buying new speakers, switching to a "Mastered For iTunes" copy of the music or moving the sofa. I..e there's no actual need to spend huge sums of money of improving something that is working perfectly and can be bought for $10. There's enough real stuff to buy for that money.

Battling the Loudness War with the SeeDeClip4 multi-user, decompressing, declipping streaming Music Server.

 

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