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Audirvana Plus 3 (official thread)


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45 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

it's a lot more detailed and revealing with straight PCM playback.

Apparently this is the reason why Direct Mode 2 (Integer Mode 2 respectively) sounds so great with V3. I've compared the modes 3 years ago or so and decided to use Mode 1. Later switched to Mac's native integer Mode (so "Direct Mode" disabled in A+). Just recently tried Mode 2 again with V3 and really love the sound. Less surgical seperation than Mode 1... also more cohesive definition here. Still very detailled.

 

No issues with AU plugins in realtime on my Mavericks OS X (haven't tried since V3.0.2, though, because meanwhile I am on El Capitan).

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Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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5 hours ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

If you have a dedicated Mac just for your audio system, why update the OSX? There's no shame in using an older OSX. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially if the newer OSX does break it.

I'm running 10.9.5 on my two audio Macs, and 10.6.8 on my other two computers, as some of my peripherals and software are no longer supported by the damn OSX updates.

Totally agree! I don't get why people always rush to install the latest OS (even Beta) when it's used for audio playback and the software developers did not have a chance to check compatibility issues.

I'm on El Capitan ... but only because I have stripped down my Mavericks OS to around 50 processes/services running... and there was no way to re-enable internet connection... which is required for A+ since version 3.

My El Capitan is now stripped down to below 120 processes/services running and I can enable internet connection when need is. Don't want to go through all the fuzz yet again just to run Sierra or High Sierra that contributes exactly nothing to the sound.

 

BTW: I've installed Sierra on a little Macbook Air to check it out. I've also tried to replace the audio kext with the one from El Capitan to get Direct Mode running. On my computer it was much easier than outlined above in this thread. I've simply booted the laptop from a bootable El Capitan backup and dragged the kext from the (active) El Capitan drive to the respective system folder of the (inactive) Sierra drive. Rebooted into Sierra (Audio greyed out), repaired permissions with Onyx, rebooted. Direct Mode worked just fine.

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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10 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

Jeez, I'd love to get that info on your stripped down processes in El Capitan - possible for you to provide details on this?

Phew - don't think this is possible.

However, my modifications are based on this optimization script: http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/computer-setup/

This very script doesn't work here on El Capitan for me but you can disable/delete the launch agents and launch daemons listed in the script by hand. Unfortunately you can't delete all the processes contained in the script with El Capitan. Too, I've disabled some services not contained in the script. I've also deinstalled a good part of the pre-installed apple softwares (including for instance Timemachine) and deleted some executables from certain frameworks. Albeit I didn't note all the things I've modified.

Whatever you do - in any case you should start with a bootable backup of your initial (healthy) system on a second partition of your computer's drive so that you can alwalys restore this healthy system without hassle.

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12 hours ago, mulberry bush said:

I guess I need to have a go at changing the filter settings.   It's just that I find the combinatorial possibilities a tad daunting and potentially somewhat time consuming.    Any recommendations on what I should do to get version 3 sounding sweeter?

As far as upsampling goes I would suggest to start with the defaults of iZotope.

For downsampling from higher rates to CD (44.1kHz) iZotopes preset is:

steepness: 32, cutoff shift: 0.96 (pre-ringing: 1).

 

The interessting value here is the cutoff shift. With steepness at 32 the filter starts to roll off around 21Hz (referring to 44.1kH source files). Setting the cutoff frequency to 0.96 shifts the filter roll off to start at around 20Hz to avoid aliasing.

 

You can translate this to upsamling. When upsamling we have to take care of "mirrored aliasing" ("images"). Images (when upsampling) may be less audible than aliasing (when downsampling). This is certainly also system-depended. However, I generally feel much better to effectively filter out images above the nyquist limit... at the expense of losing some high frequencies. Then again my settings to date are steepness: 24, cutoff: 0.95 (pre-ringing: 0,36). With these settings the roll off is like this: at 19kHz I am at 0db, at 20kHz at -0.5db (at 22.05kHz at -36db) and in conjunction with Audirvana's additional Anti-Aliasing filter set to 100 (not to 200) I have yet to see a track where images above the nyquist limit exceed -100db (so certainly inaudible). -0.5db at 20Hz is also hardly audible while artifacts above the nyquist limit may be audible (in an unpleasant way). This is why I think this is a pretty good compromise regarding low ringing vs. filter-quality. (To complete my settings: filter length is set to 500.000. Forced upsamling either by power of 2 or to DSD128.)

Start at steepness: 32 (or 31), cut-off 0.98, pre-rining: 0.72, AA: 100, Filter length: 1.000.000.

Basically: the lower the filter steepness the softer the roll off the more you have to lower the cutoff shift to avoid mirrored aliasing.

 

But! The SRC settings are only one factor. The "brightness" (somtimes also referred to as "harshness" of A+, especially in Direct Mode 1) is not related to the highest frequencies (around 20kHz)... IMHO. The range around 4kHz-6kHz makes the sound "bright" ("harsh").

 

11 hours ago, watercourse said:

Also, if it sounds brittle rather than bright, this may be due to some artifacts from having the filter max length or forced oversampling rate too high.

A high filter length doesn't create artifacts... it may (or may not) affect the sound, but it doesn't create artifacts. If at all the other way around: if the filter length is too low (too short) you may get drop outs. Also the max. oversampling rate doesn't create artifacts. Artifacts introduced by SRC always arise near nyquist limit. This is why avoiding aliasing (images) is essential. However, upsamling to arbitrary rates demands more CPU power ...

 

11 hours ago, watercourse said:

You can try reducing those, and setting to 2x oversampling only

Doesn't make sense to me since the profit of upsamling in the player software is to bypass (or reduce) the DACs internal upsampling. With regard to artifacts (aliasing/images) there's no difference whether you upsamle to 88.2kHz or to 176.4kHz ...

 

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7 hours ago, jimdukey said:

I didn't like the suggestion that I rushed into the latest and greatest.

If it doesn't work on a current OS, then sooner or later one will be left in the dust.

I have no problems on Sierra with any software I use. Quite the opposite.

If AV+ 3 works best on Mavericks, not EC, and obviously not Sierra, I don't want to not have Direct Mode, I will probably skip it, too many variables from all I've read here.

HQ does everything I need, no error messages, no it'll play this but it won't play that, or anything else.

On the other hand Damien said EC on an SSD will definitely work, and Direct Mode will work.

That seems like my best solution.

Do others think Mavericks is the way to go?

I need to be confident I'm getting the most out of AV+3.

Maybe your computer freezes w/ Sierra because Direct Mode is checked.

As I said, a lot of variables here.

1.) A+ runs just fine on El Capitan with Direct Mode enabled!

2.) A+ runs just fine on Sierra , but due to limitations of the OS Audirvana's own proprietary "Dircet Mode" won't work.

3.) Apples native "Integer mode" through CoreAudio does work on Sierra (the very same as HQPlayer, BTW!).

 

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8 hours ago, watercourse said:

Here's what I'm working with now.

Screen Shot 2017-07-29 at 3.46.03 PM.png

These are in any case "safe" settings regarding aliasing.

Basically I also like these settings (steepness: 31, cutoff: 0.98, pre-ringing: 0.72).

However, personally I try to get the ringing as low as possible. This is why I reduced the filter-steepness (at the expense of attentuating the highest frequencies a little bit to avoid aliasing). Lower ringing IMHO goes hand in hand with better precision (better definition), especially in the higher frequencies. As always, we have to deal with trade-offs... and it's clearly a matter of taste.

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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On 29.7.2017 at 10:37 AM, copy_of_a said:

As far as upsampling goes (...)

... my settings to date are steepness: 24, cutoff: 0.95 (pre-ringing: 0,36)

for the sake of completeness a short update ... cutoff 0.97 works fine ("safe") as well.

So the settings are:

steepness: 24

filter max. length: 500.000

cutoff frequ: 0.97

Anti-Aliasing: 100

pre-ringing: 0.36

 

 

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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On 2.8.2017 at 11:31 AM, mulberry bush said:

I wonder if it's possible to put a higher level user interface on top of all those very techy parameter settings?   The combinatorial possibilities are huge, but the 'feasible region' for optimum SQ is much smaller - although the shape of that region will be a bit different for each user/system of course.   Adjustments could then be made using sound/musical terms rather than the technical, dare I say nerdy, magic numbers.    

There is a slider ("Quality") above the dedicated settings that applies certain SRC presets.

However, "Quality" referrs to (lowpass-) filter-quality only (and to the computer power adressed).

 

Personally I think you can't really alter the sound-character with SRC-settings alone. It's more about fine-tuning (better space vs. better transients). Switching from Direct Mode 1 to Direct Mode 2 or turning Direct Mode off for example has a higher impact on the sound image as slightly different SRC settings. Although I've fiddeld around a lot with SRC settings I would not bet that I could reliably tell my settings from the default settings in a blind test. I use relatively low pre-ringing, so this makes a difference (less space, better transients), but still...

It's also about "peace of mind" :-)

 

Maybe the iZotope presets (from iZotope RX and Fidelia) are helpful.

RX and Fidelia don't provide an additional anti-aliasing filter nor a setting for the max. filter length. So it's just steepness, cutoff and pre-ringing...:

 

_____

 

iZotope (& Fidelia-) SRC Presets:

 

default:
Steepness: 31
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 1

 

default, no aliasing:
Steepness: 31
Cutoff: 0.96
Pre-ringing: 1

 

gentle, linear phase:
Steepness: 3
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 1

 

intermediate phase:
Steepness: 31
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 0.5

 

minimum phase:
Steepness: 31
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 0

 

steep, linear phase:
Steepness: 79
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 1

 

steep, no aliasing:
Steepness: 79
Cutoff: 0.96
Pre-ringing: 1

 

ultra steep, linear phase:
Steepness: 200
Cutoff: 1
Pre-ringing: 1

_____

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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  • 2 weeks later...
18 minutes ago, HiFiGuy528 said:

Does 3 sound better than 2.6.8 on local files? I don't care for MQA or any streaming features. 

see page 60 in this thread

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 @damien78  and/or  @mansr
… or anyone who knows fur sure…

 

A short question about the internal processing chain when upsampling to DSD and using AU Plugins.

 

According to the A+ manual when upsampling to a higher PCM rate the processing chain is:
1.) file loading / decoding
2.) sample rate conversion
3.) AU Plugins (in top to down order)
(4.) loading processed PCM into RAM for playback)


For forced upsampling to DSD the processing chain must be different (since there are no AU Plugins that work at DSD sample rates starting at 2.8MHz).

 

Am I correct assuming that AU plugins are applied at the source sample rate when we upsample to DSD?
So for DSD is the processing chain looking like this? ->
1.) file loading / decoding
2.) AU Plugins (in top to down order)
3.) sample rate conversion (iZotope) & DSD modulation (SoX)


Many thanks in advance!

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 30.10.2017 at 12:30 AM, fanofquality said:

I'm I the only one that thinks Audirvana 2 sound better than version 3?

(...)

version 3 has less bass and the bass is less detailed. Also the general sound is not as open and clear as version 2.

I am under the impression that most users here prefer V3 SQ-wise. Me too. If at all, I am finding the bass more detailed with V3.

But I think it may also depend on the mode you are using ... Integer Mode 1, Integer Mode 2 or MAC's native integer Mode (so A+'s Direct Mode disabled). I am listening through Integer Mode 2 and this is why I am referring to this Mode...

 

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19 minutes ago, jimdukey said:

What or where is the Mac Integer Mode?

as noted in brackets: when you disable "Direct Mode" in the prefs A+'s own proprietary audio driver is bypassed and you are utilizing MACs native integer mode (provided your DAC supports integer mode ... and provided you are not on Sierra or High Sierra since A+'s Direct Mode doesn't work by default on these new operating systems. So on Sierra / High Sierra you get MACs native integer mode by default ...).

 

____________________________________________________

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15 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

I'm quite content with the sound quality how I have it (v2.6.8 under Sierra, Direct Mode, Integer Mode 1).

Unless you‘ve „hacked“ your OS you are listening through Core Audio (in integer mode), not through A+‘s „Direct Mode“. Due to limitations (security ...) of the OS „Direct Mode“ does not work by default on Sierra (and High Sierra).

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32 minutes ago, gaia said:

hi

may i ask a really stupid question?

i just bought a+ and it's amazing  , the output is amazing

my question why is a+ output quality so high? what does it make so great? izotope ?

i mean i have compared to itunes and to windows musicbee & aimp4 (they use an amazing sound engine) or better then foobar or the really amazing jappanese bug head  program?

 

thanks

as a starting point: http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC OSX audio players & Integer Mode.pdf

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2 hours ago, damien78 said:

Have you enabled the "Realtime setting" option that is at the bottom of the Audio units page in the Audirvana Plus preferences?

Please note that this works only for local audio devices for now (not UPnP/DLNA ones).

and only for PCM without upsampling or with upsampling to higher PCM rates. it doesn't work in realtime when upsamling to DSD...

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  • 4 months later...
6 hours ago, jimdukey said:

DSD 64 to 128-

You need HQ for that.

you don't.

In A+ you can also select to convert native DSD to PCM (prefs-> audio system) and then select forced upsampling to DSD128 (prefs-> audio filters).

If I am not mistaken HQPlayer also first converts DSD64  to PCM and afterwards upconverts to DSD128...

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9 minutes ago, ted_b said:

You are mistaken.  HQPlayer stays within DSD.

Not quite sure. I think HQP also converts to/from PCM on the fly (under the hood).

I remember @mansr once explained there is no other way to upconvert DSD...but again, I‘m not quite sure.

____________________________________________________

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11 hours ago, Miska said:

Bullshit, all DSD rate conversions are direct from DSD64 to DSD128, or whatever else. There's no intermediate format.

Thanks for clarifying, Miska, and sorry for the confusion!

As noted I was referring to a comment of mansr... which was obviously incorrect....

____________________________________________________

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  • 1 month later...
3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I always liked Direct Mode when directly connected.  The patch is available, working with OSs at least up through High Sierra, for those who would like.

 

Right now I'm utilizing streaming with a microRendu and enjoying the sound.

I mostly liked direct mode... but at times preferred direct mode off... so utilizing native integer mode.

I’ve also tried to install the „hack“ on a test drive with Sierra installed... but since my main music computer runs El Capitain it’s not (yet) an issue for me and I just tried it to make sure things will work okay when I have to „upgrade“ to shitty (High) Sierra at some point.

To date I‘ve switched to Roon... RoonServer streaming to HQPlayer respectively (controlled through i-device remotes). SQ wise I‘ve always preferred HQPlayer usampling to DSD128 in my system... but HQPlayer as a standalone appliction is a pain to use... even with a relatively small library. Roon as an app to stream to HQPlayer is pure joy to use...

But I sure will keep an eye on Audirvana... great and reliable audio player (at least for PCM or native DSD playback... not really for upsampling to DSD).

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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  • 1 month later...
2 minutes ago, RunHomeSlow said:

Mine is always the same size taking all the place i gave it without being in  full screen mode

same here (on 3 different MACs with 2 different OS X versions)

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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, anvil vapre said:

Sox or Izotope?

iZotope!

 

1 hour ago, anvil vapre said:

Is it worth setting upsampling?

depends on your DAC. With most DACs upsampling in software is beneficial.

 

1 hour ago, anvil vapre said:

 What are the best settins...

 

iZotope's own preset is a very good starting point:

steepness: 31
filterlength: 512.000
cutoff: 0.96
anti aliasing: 200
pre-ringing: 1

Forced Upsampling: Power of 2 oversamling only (2x, 4x...)

 

the above setting is "linear phase" and provides better space.

setting pre-ringing to 0 instead of 1 will be "minimum phase" ... which will provide better transients.

linear vs. minimum phase is basically a matter of taste ...

 

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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38 minutes ago, anvil vapre said:

I'm on a Dragonfly Red, you think upsampling in beneficial also with this DAC? (And HE-400i cans)

Thing is: almost all DACs do upsample internally. So even if you don't upsample in your audioplayer the actual music will be upsampled later in the playback chain (namely in the DAC).

Budget and mid range DACs are (generally speaking) not particularly optimized for high quality upsampling.

I don't know the Dragonfly Red but would think iZotope SRC in A+ should perform much better than the "built-in" oversampling of the DAC. However, since I don't know this DAC I don't know for sure.

 

Quote

There's a way to restore default settings?

Easiest way, IMHO, is to simply restore manually these values: default

... or simply select "forced Upsampling: None" to deactivate software upsampling.

 

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
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  • 4 months later...

@damien78

 

A technical question about replay gain.

My volume settings are set to "DAC only", however, with replay gain enabled the gain is applied on the software side (so before audio is sent to the DAC).

I've figured replay gain compensation is applied before AU Plugins.

So what is the order of the processing steps here?

Is it like this? ->

1. replay gain compensation

2. SRC

3. AU Plugins

?

 

Furthermore... is Dither applied after replay gain compensation?

 

Many thanks in advance!

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Planar II
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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