Iso regen

[louisxiawei]

Alex,

 

I'm going to be politically incorrect, and ask you this outright.

 

I currently use an Intona + RUR (powered by LPS-1) combo. If I were to replace with an ISO-Regen (powered by LPS-1), would I be a happy camper?

 

Note: I do NOT use an mR. I currently have the Aries Mini, but assume I'll be driving with an sMS-200 (powered by another LPS-1).

 

sMS-200 is somehow similar to mR. So back to Alex previous comment. (not ISO'regen's main target market).

 

Alex did reply to me before regarding Intona and Uptone regen compared to ISO-regen, as he commented previously in this thread. ISO-regen will rule them all. All we can do now is to wait.

 

P.S. Off the topic, I see you using Vbus2 in front of W4S RUR, but W4S RUR needs 5V Vbus power, doesn't' it? My chain is very similar to yours except I use Uptone regen while you use W4S RUR.

[Superdad]

Alex,

 

I'm going to be politically incorrect, and ask you this outright.

 

I currently use an Intona + RUR (powered by LPS-1) combo. If I were to replace with an ISO-Regen (powered by LPS-1), would I be a happy camper?

 

Note: I do NOT use an mR. I currently have the Aries Mini, but assume I'll be driving with an sMS-200 (powered by another LPS-1).

 

Sorry, I would prefer to get the product out into peoples' systems and let their reactions do the talking.

 

 

And I also must refrain from answering the dozens of questions coming up every day. I can answer questions all day long or work on getting the product out there. Can't do both. Plus my e-mail box is now overflowing again! Argh...

 

Thanks,

 

ALEX

[greenleo]

So custom "audiophile" DC 'Y' cables from UpTone? Not going to happen anytime soon.

...

 

The 27-inch, 16awg coax DC cable we ship with the LPS-1 is something I have custom made in China--1,000 at a time. And they are not happy about having to use thick 16awg wire. There certainly is no way they could mold two pieces of 16awg into one DC jack.

Get it.

 

It is an ashame that "no way they could mold two pieces of 16awg into one DC jack" given that how good the LPS-1 is. If this is due to the physical limitation, I accept.

 

I'm (and probably we are) here because I believe that power does matter, signal integrity does matter and in fact something that looks insignificant matters (there are still lots of people thinks that '0 is 0 and 1 is 1'). The inquiry of a better cable is a gesture of trust of your product and is willing to pay more to give IR to reach its full potential. Also the inquiry of a better cable is because of the eagerness/enthusiasm (whatever you called it) but not obsession (this word sounds negative to me, may be just me).

 

If such a cable may be chosen optionally (just like the SMPS may be bundled with the LPS-1), great. If not, I take it. But I see little difference in nature between this pursuit and the pursuit of better SQ by changing the SATA cable, using Regen and then use IR three months later, underclocking, ... all the tweaking that we CA members name it

 

Best Regards

[JohnSwenson]

Hi All,

we should stop using the term "galvanic isolation" for what the LPS-1 does and what the ISO REGEN does.

 

Galvanic isolation means a path has very high resistance at DC, that is all it means, high resistance at DC.

 

The problem with using this term is that almost ALL power supplies have galvanic isolation, they have a very high resistance from the AC line (hot neutral) to the DC output. Even the SMPS have galvanic isolation. It is a bit more variable when you include the path from safety ground to DC output negative, some supplies have a high resistance and some very low.

 

But what we are talking about with the LPS-1 is absence of leakage current which is a low frequency AC signal from the mains to the DC output of a supply. "galvanic isolation" does NOT guarantee this! For example most SMPS have galvanic isolation but have a fairly high leakage current.

 

A lot of the discussion and confusion about some of the devices and supplies out there is due to confusion about this term. So lets start trying to use it properly to hopefully prevent some of the confusion.

 

here is the cheat sheet.

 

Almost all PS have galvanic isolation from hot/neutral to DC output.

Some PS have galvanic isolation from safety ground to DC output.

NONE have zero leakage current. (leakage current comes from hot/neutral, it has nothing to do with safety ground)

 

LPS-1 is galvanically isolated but it also blocks leakage current.

 

Devices such as Intona and ISO REGEN block leakage currents from computer PS getting into DAC.

 

The downstream side of the ISO REGEN is powered from an external supply, if this is a "normal" PS this will create an additional leakage loop through the DAC. The ISO REGEN blocks the loop from the computer but adds a new one from the the supply that powers it. (it will likely be a much weaker loop than the one from the computer). IF the ISO REGEN is powered from an LPS-1, which has no leakage current, there is NO new loop added. The computer PS leakage is blocked and the ISO REGEN supply PS is blocked.

 

The Intona uses an internal isolated switching DC/DC converter which powers its downstream side with power that is both galvanically isolated and blocks leakage currents, BUT is electrically noisy. The ISO REGEN uses an external supply which can be vastly cleaner and if the LPS-1 is used , also blocks leakage loops.

 

This whole subject about dealing with leakage loops has not been popularized until very recently, so there is no commonly recognized term for blocking it like there is for blocking DC (ie galvanic isolation) so I don't have a nice simple term for this. But please don't use "galvanic isolation" when you mean it blocks leakage loops. That will just completely confuse things.

 

John S.

[greenleo]

Maybe I'm not smart but, wouldn't a good DAC worth buying already have the measures built in that would render any of these add-on's null and void? Yes I realize many DAC's that sell for under $200 may suffer from these shortcomings, but is the also the case with DAC's over the $200 price point?

I can't answer you because I am not capable. However, I find doing CAS (Computer Audio System) or CAT pretty experimental. I bought Regen and find it good. I changed my power cable to something not expensive (few hundred dollars) and find it good.

Trust your ear and money doesn't guarantee best SQ. I take it is a music system, and as a system, many things matter.

 

My 2 cents

[firedog]

Seems like the information flow of reality on this forum is governed by either Superdad or John S. Absolutely nobody outside of this aggressive sales group has anything to contribute. Are we in America, or North Korea?

 

If you haven't noticed you are on a sponsored section of the forum, so Alex has editorial control. But I haven't noticed any heavy handed editing by him - what are you referring to? I'm not sure what is wrong with Alex or John talking positively about their own products here. They aren't exactly using some kind of pressure sales tactics.....

 

You can post in one of the "unsponsored" sections of the forum and then only Chris can moderate - and he pretty much leaves everything alone unless it gets personally nasty or veers into politics instead of audio.

[firedog]

Why is there so little input from actual DAC manufacturers on this forum? I remember 2 years and more in the past there were many top DAC manufacturer contributors on this forum. But sadly since then, they all disappeared. Who do we have left with the credentials to guide us to the promise land? Now when I email these industry icon's, they tell me to avoid this forum like the black plague.

 

Basically, any DAC manufacturer you ask will tell you that his DACs don't need any USB help. Even if he put only some off the shelf inexpensive USB parts in and did nothing else to make his USB input sound good. Unfortunately, that seems to be common, even for some expensive DACs. Some of these same makers later come out with a new model with "improved" USB, after stating categorically that there was nothing to improve on their previous model.

 

Who tells you to avoid this place like the plague?

 

There are some manufacturers and professionals who post here. But some others have tried to inappropriately exploit the forum for sales, and have been asked to leave. Others have tried to help and been insulted by posters, so have stopped posting.

[asdf1000]

Hi All,

we should stop using the term "galvanic isolation" for what the LPS-1 does and what the ISO REGEN does.

 

Galvanic isolation means a path has very high resistance at DC, that is all it means, high resistance at DC.

 

The problem with using this term is that almost ALL power supplies have galvanic isolation, they have a very high resistance from the AC line (hot neutral) to the DC output. Even the SMPS have galvanic isolation. It is a bit more variable when you include the path from safety ground to DC output negative, some supplies have a high resistance and some very low.

 

But what we are talking about with the LPS-1 is absence of leakage current which is a low frequency AC signal from the mains to the DC output of a supply. "galvanic isolation" does NOT guarantee this! For example most SMPS have galvanic isolation but have a fairly high leakage current.

 

A lot of the discussion and confusion about some of the devices and supplies out there is due to confusion about this term. So lets start trying to use it properly to hopefully prevent some of the confusion.

 

here is the cheat sheet.

 

Almost all PS have galvanic isolation from hot/neutral to DC output.

Some PS have galvanic isolation from safety ground to DC output.

NONE have zero leakage current. (leakage current comes from hot/neutral, it has nothing to do with safety ground)

 

LPS-1 is galvanically isolated but it also blocks leakage current.

 

Devices such as Intona and ISO REGEN block leakage currents from computer PS getting into DAC.

 

The downstream side of the ISO REGEN is powered from an external supply, if this is a "normal" PS this will create an additional leakage loop through the DAC. The ISO REGEN blocks the loop from the computer but adds a new one from the the supply that powers it. (it will likely be a much weaker loop than the one from the computer). IF the ISO REGEN is powered from an LPS-1, which has no leakage current, there is NO new loop added. The computer PS leakage is blocked and the ISO REGEN supply PS is blocked.

 

The Intona uses an internal isolated switching DC/DC converter which powers its downstream side with power that is both galvanically isolated and blocks leakage currents, BUT is electrically noisy. The ISO REGEN uses an external supply which can be vastly cleaner and if the LPS-1 is used , also blocks leakage loops.

 

This whole subject about dealing with leakage loops has not been popularized until very recently, so there is no commonly recognized term for blocking it like there is for blocking DC (ie galvanic isolation) so I don't have a nice simple term for this. But please don't use "galvanic isolation" when you mean it blocks leakage loops. That will just completely confuse things.

 

John S.

 

As usual, thanks for this John. Just a quick question, I thought the Intona used only linear regulators, not switching? That's what's mentioned on their features page.

 

Not asking to be a smarty pants. Genuine query.

 

I'm only going off their website. Obviously if you have one and are looking with your eyes directly at a switching regulator then you win ! :-)

 

Cheers

[jrd1975]

As someone who has no need for the MicroRendu / SMS 200 streamer functionality this product could be of great interest. I shall keep watching the developments eagerly!

[louisxiawei]

we should stop using the term "galvanic isolation" for what the LPS-1 does and what the ISO REGEN does.

 

Thanks John for the detailed explanation.

So what do we lose if we power both iso-regen and microrendu from a single LPS-1? Any ground loop being added by doing this, which caused the brake of galvanic isolation as Alex mentioned?

[Lionelh2]

Alex,

 

You mention board versions with and without the GI chip. Does that mean there are two versions of the ISO Regen? As a MicroRendu/LPS1 setup user, the isolation isn't beneficial for me (as I understand it) so a lower cost non isolation version would great.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[scan80269]

As usual, thanks for this John. Just a quick question, I thought the Intona used only linear regulators, not switching? That's what's mentioned on their features page.

 

Not asking to be a smarty pants. Genuine query.

 

I'm only going off their website. Obviously if you have one and are looking with your eyes directly at a switching regulator then you win ! :-)

 

Cheers

Not John, but looking at a pic of the Intona circuit board, I see a total of six 3-terminal regulators in the SOT-223 package. At least several of these are LD1117 LDO regulators, which are linear. John is right in that there is a separate small power transformer used to couple power from the upstream side to the downstream side to feed the chips on that side. A transformer obviously does not work with DC so the circuit utilizes a switching frequency, which can be a source of noise. The AC voltage on the secondary side of the transformer is rectified and capacitor smoothed to DC to feed three LDO regulators on the downstream side of the board.

 

One can, in theory, make the Intona perform better by disconnecting the power transformer and externally feed in clean DC to power the downstream side, but it is far easier to wait for ISO REGEN to become available.

[Jud]

Alex,

 

You mention board versions with and without the GI chip. Does that mean there are two versions of the ISO Regen? As a MicroRendu/LPS1 setup user, the isolation isn't beneficial for me (as I understand it) so a lower cost non isolation version would great.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

The rest of the Regen stuff is already built into the mRendu, at least as I understand it.

 

 

Since Alex has already mentioned that I was a tester, I can say the following: I own both an LPS-1 and an original Regen; I replaced the original Regen with a test version of the ISO Regen in my system; and I wouldn't give it up for anything, except the production version with the newest, bestest clock.

[lmitche]

The rest of the Regen stuff is already built into the mRendu, at least as I understand it.

 

 

Since Alex has already mentioned that I was a tester, I can say the following: I own both an LPS-1 and an original Regen; I replaced the original Regen with a test version of the ISO Regen in my system; and I wouldn't give it up for anything, except the production version with the newest, bestest clock.

Lionel,

 

Alex was referring to a prototype of the ISO-REGEN built without the isolation chip. This was used for testing purposes to compare against prototypes with the chip installed. This allowed Alex to both hear the benefits of the isolation chip, and to hear the improvements over the legacy REGEN sans the isolation and was generally useful for debugging the product.

 

AFAIK there is only one version of the ISO-REGEN that will come to market. It will deliver at least two benefits 1) isolation which stops leakage currents and 2) improved REGEN functionality all in one box.

[Superdad]

Not John, but looking at a pic of the Intona circuit board, I see a total of six 3-terminal regulators in the SOT-223 package. At least several of these are LD1117 LDO regulators, which are linear. John is right in that there is a separate small power transformer used to couple power from the upstream side to the downstream side to feed the chips on that side. A transformer obviously does not work with DC so the circuit utilizes a switching frequency, which can be a source of noise. The AC voltage on the secondary side of the transformer is rectified and capacitor smoothed to DC to feed three LDO regulators on the downstream side of the board.

 

Quite correct. Have to do switching to AC to get voltage through a transformer over the moat.

And those LD1117 regulators are spec'd for 100uV of noise from 10Hz to 10kHz. Contrast that to the five LT3042 regs we use: 0.8uV(!) over wide 10Hz to 100kHz.

That's the difference between a $0.15 regulator and a $3.30 regulator.

[Superdad]

Lionel,

 

Alex was referring to a prototype of the ISO-REGEN built without the isolation chip. This was used for testing purposes to compare against prototypes with the chip installed. This allowed Alex to both hear the benefits of the isolation chip, and to hear the improvements over the legacy REGEN sans the isolation and was generally useful for debugging the product.

 

AFAIK there is only one version of the ISO-REGEN that will come to market. It will deliver at least two benefits 1) isolation which stops leakage currents and 2) improved REGEN functionality all in one box.

 

 

Larry is correct. Just one version. But you would not believe how many versions of the board we did in testing. Comparing USB 2.0 and 3.0 hub chips, comparing the standard USB REGEN's low-jitter clock to the $10 Crystek 575, and then endless variations and hacks to get USB connection and handshake right with most computers and DACs. Did I mention there are 86 parts on the tiny board?

 

Trust me, doing the dual-power thing was NOT the easy path to take! But powering the downstream "clean" side with switching-derived bus power was never a compromise we would consider.

[R1200CL]

Can we hope for $199, or will it be closer to $249 ? [emoji3]

 

I think that the only thing left to reveal now, then it's just to wait for that email announcement.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[jamesg11]

Quite correct. Have to do switching to AC to get voltage through a transformer over the moat.

And those LD1117 regulators are spec'd for 100uV of noise from 10Hz to 10kHz. Contrast that to the five LT3042 regs we use: 0.8uV(!) over wide 10Hz to 100kHz.

That's the difference between a $0.15 regulator and a $3.30 regulator.

So does this make the end product just the $3.15 dearer? ie. in this audio fanatics world we inhabit, who wouldn't go with it ...?

[R1200CL]

So does this make the end product just the $3.15 dearer? ie. in this audio fanatics world we inhabit, who wouldn't go with it ...?

 

Read post 7;

 

"And the price will be terrific. More than USB REGEN (the bill of materials is a lot higher!), but much less than some have imagined. We expect to sell a boatload. And I am planning a nice "UpTone loyalty rebate"--related to prior USB REGEN and LPS-1 buyers..."

[asdf1000]

Quite correct. Have to do switching to AC to get voltage through a transformer over the moat.

And those LD1117 regulators are spec'd for 100uV of noise from 10Hz to 10kHz. Contrast that to the five LT3042 regs we use: 0.8uV(!) over wide 10Hz to 100kHz.

That's the difference between a $0.15 regulator and a $3.30 regulator.

Nice. Spec'ed for Hi-Res goodness [emoji1]

Thanks for sharing. Enough questions, let's let Alex get this thing out YESTERDAY! :-)

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

[Lionelh2]

Lionel,

 

Alex was referring to a prototype of the ISO-REGEN built without the isolation chip. This was used for testing purposes to compare against prototypes with the chip installed. This allowed Alex to both hear the benefits of the isolation chip, and to hear the improvements over the legacy REGEN sans the isolation and was generally useful for debugging the product.

 

AFAIK there is only one version of the ISO-REGEN that will come to market. It will deliver at least two benefits 1) isolation which stops leakage currents and 2) improved REGEN functionality all in one box.

 

Thanks Larry, got it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[jjraffin]

Some of this is going over my head, but in simple terms - if I have a microRendu powered by a LPS1, are there any expected benefits from putting an ISORegen downstream from this? And if so, can one LPS1 with a split lead power both?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Superdad]

Some of this is going over my head, but in simple terms - if I have a microRendu powered by a LPS1, are there any expected benefits from putting an ISORegen downstream from this? And if so, can one LPS1 with a split lead power both?

 

Yes and yes. See this post for the why to your first question:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/iso-regen-31769/#post644717

And this post for a picture demonstration answer to the second question:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/iso-regen-31769/index2.html#post645281

 

As I've indicated, microRendu users are really not our primary market target with the ISO REGEN, but some of you folks really enjoy taking things to the n'th degree, and to my ears in my system, the new piece really does enhance the mR--for reasons explained in the first linked post above.

[greenleo]

Yes and yes. See this post for the why to your first question:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/iso-regen-31769/#post644717

And this post for a picture demonstration answer to the second question:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/iso-regen-31769/index2.html#post645281

 

As I've indicated, microRendu users are really not our primary market target with the ISO REGEN, but some of you folks really enjoy taking things to the n'th degree, and to my ears in my system, the new piece really does enhance the mR--for reasons explained in the first linked post above.

Alex,

When will IR come out? We have been waiting to pay you☺

[Daudio]

Since we don't yet have Alex's Iso Regen, I offer up the story of my 'In-iso-Regen' over in my CA BLOG post.

 

It's a simple but effective, configuration with some ease-of-use features. The DIY stuff isn't absolutely necessary but you might like it.

 

P.S. lots of picture for the reading challenged

 

 

P.S.S. Discussion on the BLOG only, please.