Iso regen

[Superdad]

Hi Guys:

 

Now that everything is in process I will turn my attention to the web pages and bundles, etc. this coming week.  Will also start a new thread with consolidated information, pricing, and so on.

Right now I'm just taking a weekend off up at my brother's in Petaluma.  

Will jump right back into all this on Monday.

 

But yes, May 16th is currently the target ship date for the first 250 units (well, maybe not that many can be fully built, tested, and shipped by that date).  Plan is for us to open up for orders within the next 10 days.

[SuperRoo]

Just a thought but while you are in Petaluma stop by and check out my favorite tech broadcast folks.

https://twit.tv/

 

[asdf1000]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

Hi Guys:

 

Now that everything is in process I will turn my attention to the web pages and bundles, etc. this coming week.  Will also start a new thread with consolidated information, pricing, and so on.

Right now I'm just taking a weekend off up at my brother's in Petaluma.  

Will jump right back into all this on Monday.

 

But yes, May 16th is currently the target ship date for the first 250 units (well, maybe not that many can be fully built, tested, and shipped by that date).  Plan is for us to open up for orders within the next 10 days.

 

Hi Alex, can you clarify my understanding / questions (when you get back from your weekend away!), Or John if you happen to read this @JohnSwenson

 

Q1) The current REGEN completely disconnects the power/ground connection from the computer source and so with the LPS-1 you now have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct?

 

Q2) And now with the ISO REGEN we now (for the first time in an Uptone product) will have the data lines isolated from the computer and with the LPS-1 like above, we again have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct?

 

Q3) My understanding (I could be way off - as usual !) was that naughty leakage currents travel via the USB power/ground connection. So isn't the REGEN + LPS-1 combination already blocking leakage currents from the computer USB source and of course leakage loops via mains power?

 

Q4) So the addition of USB data lines isolation from the computer with the ISO REGEN is not really for blocking of leakage currents from the computer (already achieved with the REGEN + LPS-1? I'm asking not assuming) but for noise that may travel via the USB data lines?

 

Apologies in advance if my questions and assumptions are off - please feel free to put me in my place ! 

 

I figured I'd ask here so you only have to answer it once and for all, rather than you getting 1000 PM's and emails potentially asking the same things.

 

Thanks in advance !

 

[asdf1000]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi Alex, can you clarify my understanding / questions (when you get back from your weekend away!), Or John if you happen to read this @JohnSwenson

 

Q1) The current REGEN completely disconnects the power/ground connection from the computer source and so with the LPS-1 you now have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct?

 

Q2) And now with the ISO REGEN we now (for the first time in an Uptone product) will have the data lines isolated from the computer and with the LPS-1 like above, we again have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct?

 

Q3) My understanding (I could be way off - as usual !) was that naughty leakage currents travel via the USB power/ground connection. So isn't the REGEN + LPS-1 combination already blocking leakage currents from the computer USB source and of course leakage loops via mains power?

 

Q4) So the addition of USB data lines isolation from the computer with the ISO REGEN is not really for blocking of leakage currents from the computer (already achieved with the REGEN + LPS-1? I'm asking not assuming) but for noise that may travel via the USB data lines?

 

Apologies in advance if my questions and assumptions are off - please feel free to put me in my place ! 

 

I figured I'd ask here so you only have to answer it once and for all, rather than you getting 1000 PM's and emails potentially asking the same things.

 

Thanks in advance !

 

 

Ok, so I did some digging around to try and answer my own questions and get clarity. So John S has previously mentioned that: "The 5V line being broken is not what matters, it is the ground connection where the leakage loops go through, either the ground wire or the shield."

Q5) So does breaking a USB ground connection between PC and Dac result in blocking leakage currents down the USB cable?

 

Q6) In addition to breaking the USB bus power connection, does the REGEN also break the USB ground connection? Or is that one of the key features of the ISO REGEN?

 

Just asking for clarification gents because I'm interested in this stuff - not being a smarty pants.

 

Cheers again !

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Q6) In addition to breaking the USB bus power connection, does the REGEN also break the USB ground connection?

 

No, the original USB REGEN does not break the ground connection.  Ground is needed for proper USB data operation.

 

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Or is that one of the key features of the ISO REGEN?

 

Yes, and when I post the photos of the board you will see "moat" separating the two ground domains--with only the isolator chip bridging the moat.

[earnmyturns]

46 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Yes, and when I post the photos of the board you will see "moat" separating the two ground domains--with only the isolator chip bridging the moat.

Related question: with a microRendu with LPS-1 that already isolates the microRendu's USB ground from main ground, would the this new device improve anything?

[asdf1000]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No, the original USB REGEN does not break the ground connection.  Ground is needed for proper USB data operation.

 

 

Yes, and when I post the photos of the board you will see "moat" separating the two ground domains--with only the isolator chip bridging the moat.

Thanks Alex. What about the data lines connection of the ISO REGEN. Are they isolated too or no need, since leakage currents don't travel down these in the USB cable?

 

[asdf1000]

51 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Thanks Alex. What about the data lines connection of the ISO REGEN. Are they isolated too or no need, since leakage currents don't travel down these in the USB cable?

 

 

And: is there any benefit in isolating the data lines of a USB connection, for audio? Or not really?

 

 

[dean70]

Can the ISO Regen be powered with the existing Meanwell power supply with an SBooster ultra?

[JohnSwenson]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

And: is there any benefit in isolating the data lines of a USB connection, for audio? Or not really?

 

 

The data lines and ground go together. Some people have tried isolating just the ground but this is not a reliable thing to do, it may work, it may not, it is DEFINITELY not according to spec. The ISO REGEN isolates everything in the USB cable including the shield.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, dean70 said:

Can the ISO Regen be powered with the existing Meanwell power supply with an SBooster ultra?

The upstream side of the ISO REGEN (the part connected to the computer) is powered by the VBUS wire of the computer, the DC jack powers the downstream side. The power requirements of the downstream side are essentially the same as the original USB REGEN, with the same limitations depending whether you have a DAC that pulls power from the VBUS.

 

Now as to leakage loops, the ISO REGEN blocks the loop from the computer. IF you are NOT using an LPS-1 (or batteries etc) you will create a new loop through that supply. Whether that loop has less sonic affect than the loop from the computer is going to depend on your system. An LPS-1 powering the ISO REGEN guarantees you do not have a leakage loop going through your DAC from the USB jack.

 

Whether the SBooster Ultra can be used with a 7.5V Mean Well I have no idea, someone else who knows this product will have to respond to that question.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

9 hours ago, earnmyturns said:

Related question: with a microRendu with LPS-1 that already isolates the microRendu's USB ground from main ground, would the this new device improve anything?

There seem to be two aspects of USB interface that affect SQ, signal integrity and leakage loops. A microRendu and LPS-1 block leakage loops, so that aspect of the ISO REGEN will not add improvement, BUT the SI of the ISO REGEN is better than the microRendu.

 

So there is a fairly good probability that if you use separate LPS-1s to power both you will have improved SQ. Other configurations are not so sure. For example you could power the microRendu by some other supply and use the LPS-1 on the ISO REGEN, or use the same LPS-1 for both (using a Y cable on the output of the LPS-1). These MAY provide better SQ or not, it is very hard to tell. Neither Alex nor me have tried all possible combinations and even if we had, there is no guarantee it would behave the same in your system.

 

John S

[Speed Racer]

7 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

There seem to be two aspects of USB interface that affect SQ, signal integrity and leakage loops. A microRendu and LPS-1 block leakage loops, so that aspect of the ISO REGEN will not add improvement, BUT the SI of the ISO REGEN is better than the microRendu.

 

So there is a fairly good probability that if you use separate LPS-1s to power both you will have improved SQ. Other configurations are not so sure. For example you could power the microRendu by some other supply and use the LPS-1 on the ISO REGEN, or use the same LPS-1 for both (using a Y cable on the output of the LPS-1). These MAY provide better SQ or not, it is very hard to tell. Neither Alex nor me have tried all possible combinations and even if we had, there is no guarantee it would behave the same in your system.

 

John S

 

John,

 

Please check your PMs.

 

Thanks!

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

The data lines and ground go together. Some people have tried isolating just the ground but this is not a reliable thing to do, it may work, it may not, it is DEFINITELY not according to spec. The ISO REGEN isolates everything in the USB cable including the shield.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John. That answers all my above questions (and corrects all my incorrect assumptions).

 

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, dean70 said:

Can the ISO Regen be powered with the existing Meanwell power supply with an SBooster ultra?

John, the Sbooster Regen is a DC to DC power supply designed to clean the 7.5 volts input from the Meanwell.  The Regen side output is around 6.3 volts.

 

Will the iso-regen run as designed at 6.3 volts on the dac side input?

[mikicasellas]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

There seem to be two aspects of USB interface that affect SQ, signal integrity and leakage loops. A microRendu and LPS-1 block leakage loops, so that aspect of the ISO REGEN will not add improvement, BUT the SI of the ISO REGEN is better than the microRendu.

 

So there is a fairly good probability that if you use separate LPS-1s to power both you will have improved SQ. Other configurations are not so sure. For example you could power the microRendu by some other supply and use the LPS-1 on the ISO REGEN, or use the same LPS-1 for both (using a Y cable on the output of the LPS-1). These MAY provide better SQ or not, it is very hard to tell. Neither Alex nor me have tried all possible combinations and even if we had, there is no guarantee it would behave the same in your system.

 

John S

 

Hi John,

 

I have a Microrendu with LPS-1 and was targeting the ISO REGEN to complement my actual setup, i believe it is important for us with the same mR/LPS-1 to know if adding the ISO REGEN would make the connection between the 3 components even better.

 

Please do try this combination to let us know if adding the ISO to the mR/LPS-1 combo would better SQ

 

Thanks!

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

John, the Sbooster Regen is a DC to DC power supply designed to clean the 7.5 volts input from the Meanwell.  The Regen side output is around 6.3 volts.

 

Will the iso-regen run as designed at 6.3 volts on the dac side input?

 

Yes, it will run fine on 6.3V.  And as with the original USB REGEN, if the DAC (or other device) downstream does not draw ANY 5V from the USB VBUS, then the safe operating range for ISO REGEN can go down to 5V.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, mikicasellas said:

 

Hi John,

 

I have a Microrendu with LPS-1 and was targeting the ISO REGEN to complement my actual setup, i believe it is important for us with the same mR/LPS-1 to know if adding the ISO REGEN would make the connection between the 3 components even better.

 

Please do try this combination to let us know if adding the ISO to the mR/LPS-1 combo would better SQ

 

Thanks!

 

Indeed it does.  I tried that (single LPS-1 powering both a microRendu and ISO REGEN) just tonight.  Sounds great!  

The costly Crystek 575 clock and the selected USB 3.1 hub chip are the primary reason for the nice SQ bump.

[Speed Racer]

Alex,

 

If I had a microRendu, and ISO Regen, and a Singxer F-1 which draws power from the USB VBUS, could one LPS-1 set to 7 vdc power both the microRendu and ISO Regen?

 

Thanks!

[Superdad]

8 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Alex,

 

If I had a microRendu, and ISO Regen, and a Singxer F-1 which draws power from the USB VBUS, could one LPS-1 set to 7 vdc power both the microRendu and ISO Regen?

 

Thanks!

 

Well IN the test I did tonight with a single LPS-1 powering both the microRendu and the ISO REGEN,  the ISO REGEN was supplying VBUS power to a Singxer SU-1.  And while I know the F-1 is slightly different in that it is 100% bus-powered, the USB 2.0 spec does not allow for more that 500mA bus draw and only full on bus-only DAC/headphone amps ever approach near that.  

So I am rather confident that the combo would work fine for you too.

 

i do encourage everyone to get the handy Drok USB VBUS meter for checking devices: https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Capacitance/dp/B00J3JSEG6/

(I like the LED version for $10.47; I use it all the time.)

[tboooe]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:22 PM, tboooe said:

In my setup, I need to use a USB cable to connect my pc to my soon to be purchase IsoRegen.  I will be using the USPCB to connect the IsoRegen to my SU-1.  My question is, will adding the USPCB to the end my USB cable from the PC improve things?  (I understand I will need to get another adapter to go from USB B female to USB A female).  

Sorry to bump my own question but @Superdad I would appreciate your thoughts on this.  Just trying to figure out if I should order IsoRegen + 1 or 2 USPCB

[jrd1975]

I have a couple of questions

 

1. Have you compared these combo's LPS-1 and ISO Regen vs LPS-1 and MicroRendu?

2. Would you say the target market for this product are users who are not needing an NAA but looking for best sound from a computer > DAC?

 

Thanks in advance 

 

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, jrd1975 said:

I have a couple of questions:

1. Have you compared these combo's LPS-1 and ISO Regen vs LPS-1 and MicroRendu?

2. Would you say the target market for this product are users who are not needing an NAA but looking for best sound from a computer > DAC?

 

I have a couple of answers:

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

[tboooe]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

 

I have a couple of answers:

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

I would respectfully disagree with the maker of the IsoRegen about this target market  .  I think the IsoRegen is targeted at anyone wanting better sound from the USB output of any device (microrendu, PC, etc). 

[Superdad]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:22 PM, tboooe said:

In my setup, I need to use a USB cable to connect my pc to my soon to be purchase IsoRegen.  I will be using the USPCB to connect the IsoRegen to my SU-1.  My question is, will adding the USPCB to the end my USB cable from the PC improve things?  (I understand I will need to get another adapter to go from USB B female to USB A female).  

 

No, I can not think of any advantage to adding our USPCB to the end of a cable.  It's sole purpose is to replace a cable--primarily at the output of a REGEN (or microRendu) to preserve the improved USB signal integrity and impedance match into the DAC.

 

So you only need one USPCB.

 

Best,

--Alex C.