asdf1000 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hi Alex @Superdad Can you please share something on this. Anything... technical features? USB 3.0 support? Externally powered or no need? Release date? Price? Something lol I'm in desperate need of a USB galvanic isolation device for my desktop setup. Cheers ! :-) Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Speculation: the ifigalvanic works on USB3. USB audio only needs USB2, if USB3 stack doesn't support Usb audio properly, then the ifigalvanic won't help, it's a driver problem for USB3. The details are very slim on the ifigalvanic on the power to drive the thing. If the device is bus powered, then the same limitations to provide power for DACs is going to run short (for some). Based on these two speculative points, there's not much point in looking at the ifigalvanic until the detail emerges otherwise. The Iso Regen needs external power more than the USB bus can supply, OK, then use the LPS-1 technology to do so and have enough in reserve for the thirsty power DACs. That already solves many problems. Boatload Has Superdad the ships already booked? Based on these 2 pics (the only ones on the web so far and MAY NOT be final products) I can't see where external power input is: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/attachments/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/33572d1488194733-group-test-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-gadgets-aq-jitterbug-uptone-regen-ifi-iusb3-0-ipurifier-ipurifier2-intona-w4s-recovery-any-more-%85-igalvanic.jpg http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/d-av/405/40585/23_1_thumb.jpg Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Wowza. Amazing stuff. Exciting times Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Hi Alex, really dumb question here and apologies in advance. But if I power the ISO REGEN with a cheap 7V wall wart, is the noise from this wall wart 'blocked' by the ISO REGEN internally? Or this noisy power supply only regulated via the ultra noise linear voltage regulators but the power is NOT galvanically isolated internally, the way the Intona does full galvanic isolation of both power and data inputs? Thanks in advance Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 What a curious idea! Hilarious. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Hi All,we should stop using the term "galvanic isolation" for what the LPS-1 does and what the ISO REGEN does. Galvanic isolation means a path has very high resistance at DC, that is all it means, high resistance at DC. The problem with using this term is that almost ALL power supplies have galvanic isolation, they have a very high resistance from the AC line (hot neutral) to the DC output. Even the SMPS have galvanic isolation. It is a bit more variable when you include the path from safety ground to DC output negative, some supplies have a high resistance and some very low. But what we are talking about with the LPS-1 is absence of leakage current which is a low frequency AC signal from the mains to the DC output of a supply. "galvanic isolation" does NOT guarantee this! For example most SMPS have galvanic isolation but have a fairly high leakage current. A lot of the discussion and confusion about some of the devices and supplies out there is due to confusion about this term. So lets start trying to use it properly to hopefully prevent some of the confusion. here is the cheat sheet. Almost all PS have galvanic isolation from hot/neutral to DC output. Some PS have galvanic isolation from safety ground to DC output. NONE have zero leakage current. (leakage current comes from hot/neutral, it has nothing to do with safety ground) LPS-1 is galvanically isolated but it also blocks leakage current. Devices such as Intona and ISO REGEN block leakage currents from computer PS getting into DAC. The downstream side of the ISO REGEN is powered from an external supply, if this is a "normal" PS this will create an additional leakage loop through the DAC. The ISO REGEN blocks the loop from the computer but adds a new one from the the supply that powers it. (it will likely be a much weaker loop than the one from the computer). IF the ISO REGEN is powered from an LPS-1, which has no leakage current, there is NO new loop added. The computer PS leakage is blocked and the ISO REGEN supply PS is blocked. The Intona uses an internal isolated switching DC/DC converter which powers its downstream side with power that is both galvanically isolated and blocks leakage currents, BUT is electrically noisy. The ISO REGEN uses an external supply which can be vastly cleaner and if the LPS-1 is used , also blocks leakage loops. This whole subject about dealing with leakage loops has not been popularized until very recently, so there is no commonly recognized term for blocking it like there is for blocking DC (ie galvanic isolation) so I don't have a nice simple term for this. But please don't use "galvanic isolation" when you mean it blocks leakage loops. That will just completely confuse things. John S. As usual, thanks for this John. Just a quick question, I thought the Intona used only linear regulators, not switching? That's what's mentioned on their features page. Not asking to be a smarty pants. Genuine query. I'm only going off their website. Obviously if you have one and are looking with your eyes directly at a switching regulator then you win ! :-) Cheers Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Quite correct. Have to do switching to AC to get voltage through a transformer over the moat.And those LD1117 regulators are spec'd for 100uV of noise from 10Hz to 10kHz. Contrast that to the five LT3042 regs we use: 0.8uV(!) over wide 10Hz to 100kHz. That's the difference between a $0.15 regulator and a $3.30 regulator. Nice. Spec'ed for Hi-Res goodness [emoji1] Thanks for sharing. Enough questions, let's let Alex get this thing out YESTERDAY! :-) Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 This does pose an interesting upgrade path question for me. Currently have a RUR flanked by curious cables into my DAC. The RUR is using cheap SMPS at the moment and I was going to power it with an LPS-1.... But now maybe selling the RUR and putting the IR in may be better bang for pound (buck)...??? Great question that a lot of people would be asking (looking for best bang for buck). But it seems like the ISO REGEN needs either an LPS-1 or a linear power supply (for the leakage currents reasons). Certainly the upgrades can be done in steps though but the ultimate end result is LPS-1 and ISO Regen for sure. Just depends how quickly each person decides to get there, depending on each budget at the time. If I were you (given your current setup) I'd actually start with the LPS-1, replacing the SMPS and when funds allow later add an ISO Regen. Only one opinion though. Certainly no hard and fast rules with this game :-) Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk jrd1975 1 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Except the LPS-1 is energized by an SMPS. Won't this SMPS contaminate the mains? Yes, you will get clean power into and out of the ISO Regen which is very important. But what about the devices getting power form the same AC circuit? My plan is to have everything in the audio system on one AC circuit and everything in the computer system, including the ISO Regen, on another circuit. I don't want the SMPS for the LPS-1 creating issues for the AC feeding the audio equipment. Another great question but there is an entire thread about the energizing plugpack for the LPS-1. The charging bank of ultracaps is completely isolated from the discharging so you can be happy forever using the meanwell SMPS that Alex includes with the LPS-1. Feel free to read that entire thread but I think I just saved you a lot of reading :-) Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Except the LPS-1 is energized by an SMPS. Won't this SMPS contaminate the mains? Yes, you will get clean power into and out of the ISO Regen which is very important. But what about the devices getting power form the same AC circuit? My plan is to have everything in the audio system on one AC circuit and everything in the computer system, including the ISO Regen, on another circuit. I don't want the SMPS for the LPS-1 creating issues for the AC feeding the audio equipment. This is also the reason I thought you should replace your current SMPS with the LPS-1 + Energizing Meanwell, as the first upgrade. Then add a Iso Regen when budget allows later Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Re-read what I wrote. I am not worried about the SMPS energizing the LPS-1 contaminating the DC power the LPS-1 generates. I have concerns about the SMPS contaminating the AC mains and causing issues for other devices using that AC power. Hi mate, my mistake. There's another big thread for that: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/discussion-ac-mains-isolation-transformers-started-w-posts-moved-linear-power-supply-1-troubleshooting-thread-30378/ A lot of stuff in there about that. John S gave me and many others a lot of advice in there. But I don't want to go off topic in this thread, so check out the link above if you get time. Really useful stuff that made my overhaul a lot of power related stuff in my system. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Somebody who may have listened to the ISO REGEN hinted that I may need to replace my microRendu at my desktop setup... i.e. they hinted it's that good... For those that have the microRendu at a desktop setup like I do or close to the PC, we're all obviously very eager to compare.. As per other threads I've been looking at ways to isolate ALL the audio from my PC (not just Roon and DLNA as the microRendu does) so I'm itching for this and it's worthy competitor to come out. Speed Racer 1 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 20 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: I am hoping that hint is true. Getting complete isolation from the PC side of the USB bus AND massive improvements in USB power and signal on the DDC/DAC side of the USB bus would make it an near perfect solution for me. I have also been looking at the Icron ethernet USB extender as a way to completely isolate the computer system from the audio system. But the primary use of the Icron would be extend the USB from my home office to my Library where my 2 channel system will soon be. This would make it so I would not have to move my MacBook Pro between rooms. I've tried the LANRover powered by LPS-1 (this is made for PS Audio by ICRON with some audio specific changes) with my desktop headphone setup. I didn't prefer it over my microRendu powered by LPS-1. Some say the LANRover needs a REGEN after it but I returned it for a refund. I guess this proves isolation is not everything (as Alex hinted above) since the LANRover was ethernet transformer isolated and mains isolated (Uptone LPS-1) - just like the microRendu. The USB signal integrity stuff that John has mastered (in the microRendu too) must be the secret sauce. If you are able to try an ICRON or LANRover for free, do try it, because your experience may vary. Both have many very happy customers. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Question for Alex @Superdad Assuming my PC to USB Dac direct connection is working 100% fine, i.e. the USB drivers are working and the PC and Dac are playing nice together: if I inserted the ISO REGEN between the PC and USB Dac and couldn't get it working (after trying different USB cables etc) could I return it for a full refund? I had this compatibility issue with an Intona previously. While compatibility issues are usually very few and far between they do happen. There aren't any drivers to install for the ISO REGEN (right?) so there's only so much I could tweak to get it working. Again, assuming the PC to USB Dac direct connection is working 100% before inserting the ISO REGEN into the chain. Cheers Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Superdad said: Neither original USB REGEN nor ISO REGEN require any drivers to be installed. They are seen as fully USB-spec compliant hubs. I have complete confidence that the ISO REGEN will work between your PC and DAC. After all, we have just under 4,000 USB REGENs in the field and 98% of users have no problems. (Some DACs can be a little finicky about power on connection and Linux-based devices don't have a fully functional Udev so hot swapping of USB devices does not work--boot up with connection in place is needed.) As for refunds: Not only can you (or anyone) return an UpTone product for a full refund if you can't get it to work (within 30 days, less shipping), we want people to return it if they are not completely thrilled. Brilliant stuff Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Listening to a microRendu + LPS-1 + Curious Mojo Link > Chord Mojo > Sennheiser HD800S (but wishing I could have a direct PC to Dac connection so not limited to Roon/DLNA/Shairport) and I'm gobsmacked at how this can possibly get better while keeping a simple setup/chain... but I guess not long to go until we find out :-) Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Zorro said: My experience with the PS Audio LanRover has been quite good. But the LanRover alone is not adequate to push the SQ to the next level. It did offer a refinement to the SQ after some tweats. After several major tweaks in my system, I have now come to this stage that I think the SQ is the best I can get without another component upgrade. So I am looking forward to the ISO Regen. If it can better what I am getting now, I will definitely buy it. Just hope it will not put a hole in my pocket Very nice, yes it's a great product. Lots of variables in all of our systems that give us slightly different experiences. I'm also hoping to not get a hole in the pocket ! :-) Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Hi Alex, any chance of a Type A to microUSB USPCB for Chord Hugo 1 / Mojo / Hugo 2 and other owners out there? spacexpert 1 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I do already have Curious Cables' Mojo/Hugo Link and I know you're a fan of their USB cables so all is not lost. But a USPCB on both ISO REGEN input and output would be nice ! Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 5 hours ago, Superdad said: Hi Guys: Now that everything is in process I will turn my attention to the web pages and bundles, etc. this coming week. Will also start a new thread with consolidated information, pricing, and so on. Right now I'm just taking a weekend off up at my brother's in Petaluma. Will jump right back into all this on Monday. But yes, May 16th is currently the target ship date for the first 250 units (well, maybe not that many can be fully built, tested, and shipped by that date). Plan is for us to open up for orders within the next 10 days. Hi Alex, can you clarify my understanding / questions (when you get back from your weekend away!), Or John if you happen to read this @JohnSwenson Q1) The current REGEN completely disconnects the power/ground connection from the computer source and so with the LPS-1 you now have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct? Q2) And now with the ISO REGEN we now (for the first time in an Uptone product) will have the data lines isolated from the computer and with the LPS-1 like above, we again have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct? Q3) My understanding (I could be way off - as usual !) was that naughty leakage currents travel via the USB power/ground connection. So isn't the REGEN + LPS-1 combination already blocking leakage currents from the computer USB source and of course leakage loops via mains power? Q4) So the addition of USB data lines isolation from the computer with the ISO REGEN is not really for blocking of leakage currents from the computer (already achieved with the REGEN + LPS-1? I'm asking not assuming) but for noise that may travel via the USB data lines? Apologies in advance if my questions and assumptions are off - please feel free to put me in my place ! I figured I'd ask here so you only have to answer it once and for all, rather than you getting 1000 PM's and emails potentially asking the same things. Thanks in advance ! Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Em2016 said: Hi Alex, can you clarify my understanding / questions (when you get back from your weekend away!), Or John if you happen to read this @JohnSwenson Q1) The current REGEN completely disconnects the power/ground connection from the computer source and so with the LPS-1 you now have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct? Q2) And now with the ISO REGEN we now (for the first time in an Uptone product) will have the data lines isolated from the computer and with the LPS-1 like above, we again have a mains isolated power source and power/ground isolated from the computer source. Is that correct? Q3) My understanding (I could be way off - as usual !) was that naughty leakage currents travel via the USB power/ground connection. So isn't the REGEN + LPS-1 combination already blocking leakage currents from the computer USB source and of course leakage loops via mains power? Q4) So the addition of USB data lines isolation from the computer with the ISO REGEN is not really for blocking of leakage currents from the computer (already achieved with the REGEN + LPS-1? I'm asking not assuming) but for noise that may travel via the USB data lines? Apologies in advance if my questions and assumptions are off - please feel free to put me in my place ! I figured I'd ask here so you only have to answer it once and for all, rather than you getting 1000 PM's and emails potentially asking the same things. Thanks in advance ! Ok, so I did some digging around to try and answer my own questions and get clarity. So John S has previously mentioned that: "The 5V line being broken is not what matters, it is the ground connection where the leakage loops go through, either the ground wire or the shield." Q5) So does breaking a USB ground connection between PC and Dac result in blocking leakage currents down the USB cable? Q6) In addition to breaking the USB bus power connection, does the REGEN also break the USB ground connection? Or is that one of the key features of the ISO REGEN? Just asking for clarification gents because I'm interested in this stuff - not being a smarty pants. Cheers again ! Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Superdad said: No, the original USB REGEN does not break the ground connection. Ground is needed for proper USB data operation. Yes, and when I post the photos of the board you will see "moat" separating the two ground domains--with only the isolator chip bridging the moat. Thanks Alex. What about the data lines connection of the ISO REGEN. Are they isolated too or no need, since leakage currents don't travel down these in the USB cable? Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 51 minutes ago, Em2016 said: Thanks Alex. What about the data lines connection of the ISO REGEN. Are they isolated too or no need, since leakage currents don't travel down these in the USB cable? And: is there any benefit in isolating the data lines of a USB connection, for audio? Or not really? Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said: The data lines and ground go together. Some people have tried isolating just the ground but this is not a reliable thing to do, it may work, it may not, it is DEFINITELY not according to spec. The ISO REGEN isolates everything in the USB cable including the shield. John S. Thanks John. That answers all my above questions (and corrects all my incorrect assumptions). Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 Hi Alex & John @JohnSwenson @Superdad Just on a Y-cable for the LPS-1 to power 2 devices (like LANRover and ISO REGEN or mRendu and ISO REGEN etc etc...)... Is it significantly less important for this cable to be shielded than say cables that carry data (like USB cable / adapter)? So are you more inclined to recommend shielded USB cables to use with the ISO REGEN than worry about shielded power cables with the LPS-1? The reason I ask, is it's not easy to find a cheap shielded Y cable... Or even a cheap hard Y-adapter (since I already have two shielded DC cables, that came with my LPS-1's).... I don't want to spend too much money on this but do like the idea of cheap shielded power cables! Like the one you include with the LPS-1. Cheers! Link to comment
Recommended Posts