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Cleaning up USB signal for DAC


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I replaced my Gumby with the Yggy last week. I use USB only and the USB card in the Yggy gives superb performance without the need to clean up the USB. Much better than with the Gumby. The sound of my room with the Yggy is superb. Detail galore and not even a hint of hardness. No dropouts either. If the spdif or aes sounds better than this all I can say is wow. I have used the coax input using a CD player transport and find the same cd ripped onto my hard drive sounds better. Using a Mac book air with Audirvana.the hard drive is connected via thunderbolt.

I am going in to the test with an open mind. Whatever sounds best is what I am going to stick with.

 

The only reason I can think of for a CD ripped to your hard drive sounding better than from the CD player is that the CD player implementation of SPDIF is flawed. That or the cable is terrible. Because there is no other reasons that an SPDIF feed straight in the DAC should sound worse than a USB feed.

 

I have read many posts on various forums stating that Yggdrasil is improved using quality DDCs by themselves or in concert with USB decrapifiers. So I don't think Yggdrasil is the be all end all of USB implementations but I do believe it is probably better than most.

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What is a definitive combination of source, DAC, reclocker that is just hands down going to show a difference on a resolving system?

 

I really don't know. I do know that when I asked Schiit about the interfaces on the Yggy, Mike said USB was at the bottom of the list in terms of performance. I used a USB to AES converter with the Yggy and loved it.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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If you say so. The CD player is an older Sony ES SACD player and the cables are several different types. I hear no difference any more with a Wyrd or jitterbugs. I used the Wyrd for dropouts. No dropouts in a week without it with the Yggy. I am very happy with the Yggy's USB implementation.

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Everything is flawed.....there is no way out but to keep tweaking. SPDIF is flawed. I just got in the IFI SPDIF Ipurifier and with a bunch of mods it has transformed my system. Everything you do makes a difference. I have damped the input and output cables, the body of the IFI, the power connectors to each other and to the IFI body and the AC adapter. I have also removed the toslink connector inside....everyone of these things made is sound better. EVERYTHING makes a difference! AES is just as flawed....too bad IFI does not have a AES IPurifier. All cables reflect the waves and create distortions due to dialectric effect, vibration effect or who knows what. This game is infinite. Anyone who thinks they know the best way to do something is just kidding themselves. I have been tweaking and manufacturing high end audio (as a living) since 1985 and I still don't know sheet. Every day I learn something.....like this IFI thang has taught me. However, without mods it is just OK....does improve the sound but not like with mods. I will have pictures on my site showing mods so others can do them. All usb things need tweaking too. There are already tons of people tweaking the Singxer, etc. Never ends.

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If you say so. The CD player is an older Sony ES SACD player and the cables are several different types. I hear no difference any more with a Wyrd or jitterbugs. I used the Wyrd for dropouts. No dropouts in a week without it with the Yggy. I am very happy with the Yggy's USB implementation.

Anecdotal subjective data only goes so far, right? That's why I will test for myself and find what I thinks works best. That may be quite different than what you think and that is perfectly reasonable. When you get right down to the final verdict, all that matters is what you hear and, for whatever reason, believe sounds the best. My plan is pass on my experiences and conclusions. My goal is not to persuade. It is too learn and perhaps help someone else with their quest for the best sound.

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I am going in to the test with an open mind. Whatever sounds best is what I am going to stick with.

 

The only reason I can think of for a CD ripped to your hard drive sounding better than from the CD player is that the CD player implementation of SPDIF is flawed. That or the cable is terrible. Because there is no other reasons that an SPDIF feed straight in the DAC should sound worse than a USB feed.

 

 

The CD player through the SPDIF connection will likely have more jitter. The CD player could also conceivably produce more electrical noise than the computer (I have no idea if this is true, just throwing out possibilities). There may also be reasons neither of us has thought of....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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So you have the Intona and the Regen both inline?

 

I'll show you mine, if you show me yours. Chuckle

 

Yes, right there in my signature for all to see.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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Why of course my system design/implementation. Don't you know by now, everyone on this forum has the definitive combination.

 

Would be great if you could describe the key differences in the sound of your IFI DAC, with and without USB tweaks. TIA!

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You do realize that you just made a declaration that all USB based DAC's are:

 

1. Compromised DAC's

 

2. Designed by incompetents

 

When you find a DAC that these 'regen' designers say "doesn't need help", let us know.

 

Keep chasing your circular logic. You'll eventually figure out that you keep seeing the same forest but no trees after a while.

 

Glad I have AES/EBU so I can go feed a Berkley and leave USB all together behind.

 

No, I made no such statement. I didn't say ALL USB DACs are compromised; I said virtually every manufacturer will say that HIS isn't. Not at all the same thing. Lots of users of USB devices have reported differing results with different DACs; no reason for me to doubt that some USB DACs have better implementation than others.

 

And no, it doesn't mean I think all USB DACs are designed by incompetents. You are assuming an extreme conclusion which in no way reflects what I wrote. I do think there are DAC designs where the designer puts a lot of effort into making the best USB input he can, because he believes it does matter to the final result; there are other DACs where apparently very little thought is given to the USB input, other than slapping off the shelf components into the back of the DAC. And obviously there are many somewhere between those two extremes.

 

It is no different than differences between DAC designs where some have extremely well done preamp functions or analog outs, and others sound indifferent, or have a volume control that leaves something to be desired. Every aspect of design can be done at different levels. Just because something isn't done to the nth degree doesn't mean it was designed by an incompetent.

 

Has it never occurred to you that there can be two designers, and while both are competent, one is more knowledgeable, or is designing to a higher price point, and thus can get better results? Why is everything with you a black or white dichotomy?

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Using the same logic, you can't trust the claims of the USB filtering manufacturers either.

 

True. And who said I, or anyone else does? The proof is in the listening.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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No, I'm saying call up some DAC manufacturers and find out if their USB is galvonically isolated and doesn't run on buss power.

 

I know Schiit, Emotiva, Benchmark will all give you that information. Benchmark showed that their DAC was capable of pristine operation with a 100 foot cable that had a ton of noise and errors on it.

 

Amanero based USB dacs dont use bus power. On mine I use a 100ft Corning with no issues.

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Has it never occurred to you that there can be two designers, and while both are competent, one is more knowledgeable, or is designing to a higher price point, and thus can get better results? Why is everything with you a black or white dichotomy?

 

Nothing is black and white. We now have a starting list of DAC's where USB section isn't going to be improved upon.

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No, I made no such statement. I didn't say ALL USB DACs are compromised; I said virtually every manufacturer will say that HIS isn't.

 

For example, Benchmark claimed asynchronous sample rate conversion (which uses upsampling as a means of reducing jitter) in their DACs completely eliminated any possible impact from the source computer in regard to jitter. I read statements on this forum using Benchmark's claim as justification for the position that DACs with asynchronous USB input (which moves the controlling clock from the computer to the DAC itself) was therefore nothing but a marketing gimmick.

 

Benchmark's current DAC uses both ASRC and async USB input to reduce jitter. So either Benchmark's earlier DAC completely eliminated jitter and the async USB input was a money grab, or what was actually meant by the claim that the earlier DAC "completely eliminated" jitter was actually "it does a really good job of minimizing jitter to the lowest levels we're currently capable of."

 

I think it's the latter, and I believe this is the same way we should look at any claims by DAC or USB tweak manufacturers that their products "completely eliminate" any effect of the source. This is so not only because there may be some effect propagated on a direct path between source and DAC, but also because a system has multiple circuit paths and thus multiple paths for noise to propagate, and a DAC's USB input, with or without a "tweak" in front of it, is only one of them.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Nothing is black and white. We now have a starting list of DAC's where USB section isn't going to be improved upon.

 

Another black and white statement based on your assumptions, possibly limited understanding, and not on testing or listening.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Pot meet kettle. I certainly don't trust your sighted evaluation.

 

Nope. Only you are making absolute statements about what must be true. And how do you know what evaluations I've done? Haven't detailed, it especially recently.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Another black and white statement based on your assumptions, possibly limited understanding, and not on testing or listening.

 

Pot meet kettle. I certainly don't trust your sighted evaluation.

 

Yeah, I think you're both right. I don't think assumptions based on manufacturer statements are trustworthy, nor do I think someone's sighted evaluation is trustworthy in an objective sense (i.e., that it will necessarily correspond with any measurements we know how and are able to make). "Someone" in the last sentence certainly includes me!

 

 

So we have to make our decisions to buy or not to buy based on incomplete information that itself isn't completely reliable. Since it's a free country, folks can make up their own minds about how much they're going to trust the various sources of information they have.

 

 

Are there different levels of reliability? Sure. I would say manufacturer statements and subjective listening anecdotes are among the less reliable. :) But sometimes that's most of the information we have.

 

 

And entirely apart from a search for information, there is the plain good fun of chatting about our shared hobby. We all know the guy who, when we're talking sports, loudly proclaims the superiority of his favorite player/team with his own treasured set of facts/statistics, and won't let anyone else have the regular enjoyable sports conversation where you get to good-naturedly say your own player/team is the best and give the friendly "needle" to your buddies who root for the other guys. At its best, this forum is like that, a place for friends to enjoy each other's conversation. So try not to be "that guy" and bring us all down.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Just from observing, it appears that no one has a "discussion" with you.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I noticed Superdad (Alex/UpTone) liked your comment.

 

I find it interesting since when he was asked at Whatsbestforum if he would blind A/B his own product he said he would with out any hesitation.

 

When Amir said he would fly out on his own dime, all the sudden Alex ceased posting at WBF.

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I noticed Superdad (Alex/UpTone) liked your comment.

 

I find it interesting since when he was asked at Whatsbestforum if he would blind A/B his own product he said he would with out any hesitation.

 

When Amir said he would fly out on his own dime, all the sudden Alex ceased posting at WBF.

 

I'm not defending Alex, but you have to realize that whole thing with Amir offering to fly out on his own dime is just a clap trap.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Based on my experience if a piece of gear is properly designed you have no need for after market fixes. With my old Dac the fixes improved the SQ, but with my present Dac I tested 3 devices, 6 USB cables and 3 ethernet cables. 2 of the devices had a slight negative effect and all other had no effect at all. To quote the maker of one of the products I tested, when I told him of my results *“When gear is properly designed all of the "fixes" have very*little effect on SQ, thankfully most gear isn’t, so I’ll be in business for a long time”

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