Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[Ralf11]

what state doesn't have Vandersteens??

 

yes, I was thinking of Music Direct for the $1,500 AA amp (I currently have a Sunfire and an amp upgrade is down the road a bit for me as I'm thinking about newer, bigger Maggies right now)

[Johnseye]

what state doesn't have Vandersteens??

 

yes, I was thinking of Music Direct for the $1,500 AA amp (I currently have a Sunfire and an amp upgrade is down the road a bit for me as I'm thinking about newer, bigger Maggies right now)

 

Technically Illinois, although there are some dealers that can get them. Chicago, the third largest city in the US and you would think...

 

I have the AA and Benchmark amps for another week and a half before I need to make a decision. I was browsing some reviews to see if there's another out there which would be good to audition. The NAD M22 is tempting as are some others. I just don't know if anything else can better the Benchmark for around $3k.

 

The other speakers I didn't talk about much which were strong contenders were the Legacy Focus SE. Had the dealer allowed a home demo they would have gotten a fair shake. They do sound great, especially in the midrange and low end. They also use an AMT tweeter which I liked the sound of.

[Ralf11]

The NAD M22 has several xlnt reviews and might well be something for you to compare.

 

Why not try it (and let us live vicariously while you do the hard work?)

[ctsooner]

The NAD M22 has several xlnt reviews and might well be something for you to compare.

 

Why not try it (and let us live vicariously while you do the hard work?)

 

I've notice that Vandersteen is starting to expand their dealer network. Very cool and about time. I know how picky they are in choosing dealers.

 

Got a call last night that my Quatro's are being dialed in this week and just got off the phone this morning with Johnny at Audio Connection in NJ (I drive about 3 hours to my dealer) to come up for the install. Just waiting on my Ayre integrated to get back after they installed the high pass filter directly into the amp. So excited. CAnt' wait.

[Johnseye]

I've notice that Vandersteen is starting to expand their dealer network. Very cool and about time. I know how picky they are in choosing dealers.

 

Got a call last night that my Quatro's are being dialed in this week and just got off the phone this morning with Johnny at Audio Connection in NJ (I drive about 3 hours to my dealer) to come up for the install. Just waiting on my Ayre integrated to get back after they installed the high pass filter directly into the amp. So excited. CAnt' wait.

 

Very exciting. What are they doing to dial in your Quatros? Let us know how things turn out.

(I replied to your last PM)

[ctsooner]

Very exciting. What are they doing to dial in your Quatros? Let us know how things turn out.

(I replied to your last PM)

 

They listen to every pair of speakers and dial the crossover in to make sure they are perfectly matched pairs. There is so much that goes into making speakers properly. I know a few companies who actually skip doing things like this and still charge an arm and a leg, lol. I assume most do this last step to make sure the pair of speaker they ship to the dealer sounds the best they can sound.

[Johnseye]

I got the Western Electric WE16GA speaker cable yesterday. After installing it and listening to some music, it got me thinking. There are varying degrees of changes a component in the chain can have on our sound. Some are significant, and typically carry a cost that reflects the change. Only commenting to what I auditioned at home, the level of change I've heard with the speakers is significant. The amps have varied, but I would classify the Benchmark as significant. The WE16GA cables are such a subtle change that I question whether it's real. I think you all know what I'm talking about. You think you hear something different, maybe convince yourself it's there, but then maybe not.

 

I would also classify the use of fiber to break up the copper chain in the data chain to the DAC. Maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Now what about the microRendu and the Uptone LPS-1? This is where it gets interesting because people's opinions start to play into what might be real, or perceived to be real. And if it's real, it may be such a minuscule change that you might not even notice it's there nearly all of the time. Let's leave the fact out that the microRendu is an end point allowing the PC or media server to be separated from the DAC, and only focus on the level of sound change, or improvement. I've read many wonderful posts about the microRendu and the LPS-1. So many that I spent about $1k to put it in line. As it stands right now, and keep in mind I've made those speaker and amp changes, I think I can hear a slight difference. I ran a test switching between USB direct to my PC, and then using the microRendu, LPS-1, fiber ethernet solution. The change in sound is so small that I have to question whether it's there.

 

I have a lot more listening to do. One thing I also find is that after you make a change you start getting accustomed to the change. The differences between what you had before and what you have now disappear. You have a new normal. I would have to go back to my old equipment, listen for an hour or so, then go to the new so I can remember what I did to improve the sound. In the end I'll be dumping about $15k alone into 2 channel improvements. Not to mention the additional $6k+ I need to make to the multichannel environment to integrate them both where needed. Then I think to myself, I spent all that for this amount of change in sound. A change that I don't always recognize as it becomes my new normal. So are the small changes worth it if you even question whether it made a difference or not? The macro changes like speaker and amp should last me many years. These micro changes I'm making, like the speaker cable and the microRendu need some more time but I feel like I'm chasing dragons.

[botrytis]

I had the same budget but couldn't find something that was an improvement over my Focal 1028BE. I had to increment the budget once I had Wilson Audio Sabrina. I suggest you don't listen to them.

 

You like detail so you might want to look at the Focal Sopra 2.

 

Heard both, not that impressed for the money. I preferred the B&W 804 D3's they sounded more cohesive and better overall tone.

[ctsooner]

Heard both, not that impressed for the money. I preferred the B&W 804 D3's they sounded more cohesive and better overall tone.

 

Just be careful on the amp match with B&W's. The zero feedback amps that I love don't work good with them at all. The bass will not be great because of the way the speakers are designed. That's nothing against the speaker, but the reality of matching a system properly.

 

Johnny, yes folks never seem to listen when I share that cables are the last thing to do (well actually electrical an power cables to me are). Spend the money on the components that create the sound. That's the cost effective way to put a good solid system together. If you need cables to tune anything then why did you buy the system that you have? I never understood using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do. If you don't have great highs or great mids or great bass, a cable will not change that. That's why I love Audioquest and Cardas as they are two of the more neutral cables on the market to my ear.

 

I've noticed that reading posts you can tell who reads reviews or other posters and reposts stuff. You can tell they aren't out listening to said components etc... Once you get into very expensive gear, you may say that upgrading a cable is a huge difference, but the reality is that it's still incremental, but if cost is no object, then going for the 3k plus speaker run is not a big deal. Even that 12k speaker cable isn't a big deal, but using a 3k speaker cable with a speaker that costs 12k makes less sense than upgrading to the 15k speaker and using a much lower priced cable. You won't lose the great bass or great mids or great highs from the better speaker. Then you can upgrade later on when you have the cash etc...

[Johnseye]

Even that 12k speaker cable isn't a big deal, but using a 3k speaker cable with a speaker that costs 12k makes less sense than upgrading to the 15k speaker and using a much lower priced cable. You won't lose the great bass or great mids or great highs from the better speaker. Then you can upgrade later on when you have the cash etc...

Exactly.

[botrytis]

Just be careful on the amp match with B&W's. The zero feedback amps that I love don't work good with them at all. The bass will not be great because of the way the speakers are designed. That's nothing against the speaker, but the reality of matching a system properly.

 

Johnny, yes folks never seem to listen when I share that cables are the last thing to do (well actually electrical an power cables to me are). Spend the money on the components that create the sound. That's the cost effective way to put a good solid system together. If you need cables to tune anything then why did you buy the system that you have? I never understood using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do. If you don't have great highs or great mids or great bass, a cable will not change that. That's why I love Audioquest and Cardas as they are two of the more neutral cables on the market to my ear.

 

I've noticed that reading posts you can tell who reads reviews or other posters and reposts stuff. You can tell they aren't out listening to said components etc... Once you get into very expensive gear, you may say that upgrading a cable is a huge difference, but the reality is that it's still incremental, but if cost is no object, then going for the 3k plus speaker run is not a big deal. Even that 12k speaker cable isn't a big deal, but using a 3k speaker cable with a speaker that costs 12k makes less sense than upgrading to the 15k speaker and using a much lower priced cable. You won't lose the great bass or great mids or great highs from the better speaker. Then you can upgrade later on when you have the cash etc...

 

I heard the B&W's being pushed by a D'Agostino Momentum S250 amp and Audio Research Pre-amp. So, yes, the amp was up to the task.

[Kelly]

M22 is a pretty astounding amp. I heard it driving Aerial 7t which is admittedly a fairly efficient speaker, but they sounded really good together. For the price it is a very good option.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Ralf11]

post #132 is an xlnt disquisition on things

 

but I'm not clear on where you classify the use of fiber to break up the copper chain in the data chain to the DAC (??)

 

also, you did not mention source material and the recording quality thereof

 

OTOH, if it is a performance that you really really want, you will suffer thru a bad recording to hear it - based on your avatar, you are well aware of that...

[Dr Tone]

Heard both, not that impressed for the money. I preferred the B&W 804 D3's they sounded more cohesive and better overall tone.

 

I had the 804D3s home for a couple days prior to trying the Sabrinas. They aren't in the same league never mind ball park in my opinion. In fact the 804s didn't best my 1028BEs at the time, they would have been a sideway move at best.

 

Fortunately there are many brands and flavours to fill all our unique tastes.

[Johnseye]

post #132 is an xlnt disquisition on things

 

but I'm not clear on where you classify the use of fiber to break up the copper chain in the data chain to the DAC (??)

 

also, you did not mention source material and the recording quality thereof

 

OTOH, if it is a performance that you really really want, you will suffer thru a bad recording to hear it - based on your avatar, you are well aware of that...

The idea behind using fiber at the last ethernet point before the microRendu is that any power created noise running along the copper from the PC/media server and switch or router is eliminated as it can not run over fiber. Using the microRendu with an Uptone LPS-1 is supposed to be the lowest power and thus lowest noise endpoint for digital audio before the DAC. This supposedly removes the noise and allows the DAC to do a better job converting to analog. Because the mRendu doesn't have a fiber ethernet port fiber media converters are needed. That's one more power source, but a very low one. You can use another LPS-1 on it, or in my case I've used an iFi iPower for the fiber converter. Next best thing. Science or witchcraft, you decide.

 

Source material in my environment is various: Analog - Music Matters remastered Blue Note and MFSL vinyl. Digital - 24/192, 24/96, 24/88 (PCM/DSD) recordings, or Tidal upsampled by Roon or HQ Player. Plus, as you noted I have an extensive live music collection. 99% of the live music is from the soundboard but that doesn't mean the quality is always great. I'm picky and don't like to suffer through many bad recordings. There are a lot of mediocre recordings however and I try to let the original sound and intent of the musicians shine through as best as possible.

[Johnseye]

Some of the material I specifically used in all my comparisons whether in store or at home are the following :

 

Beck from Morning Phase - Morning Song and Heart is a Drum

Radiohead from In Rainbows - Reckoner and House of Cards

Patricia Barber from Cafe Blue - What a shame and Mourning Grace

Avishai Cohen from Flood - First Drops and Heavy Water

SRV - Tin Pan Alley

Bob Dylan - Man in the Long Black Coat

Jacintha - Moon River

Daft Punk - Get Lucky

Miles Davis - So What and Freddie Freeloader, or all of Kind of Blue

Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land

Kenny Dorham - Whistle Stop

 

To name a few. There was more but those were the most consistent. I did listen to a few Dead and Widespread Panic shows to get the live feel.

[Johnseye]

I never understood using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do. If you don't have great highs or great mids or great bass, a cable will not change that. That's why I love Audioquest and Cardas as they are two of the more neutral cables on the market to my ear.

 

I find it very interesting that you said "using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do". After briefly trying the WE16GA and 10 gauge cables this is exactly what I heard. It's not even that subtle, it's noticeably different. It's a much mellower and smoothed out tone. I can see why those who love tube amps would like it, because it matches that timbre very well. Considering I went down this path of finding speakers that were exceptionally clear and detailed as well as probably the most neutral and clean amp out there, I don't think these cables are for me. Maybe if I give tubes a try one day, but with what I just built, it slightly mutes the dynamics, flattening the music. I switch back to the simple Monoprice 12 gauge cable I was using and what I had been hearing returned.

 

Cardas might be pushing my budget a little. Are they that much better than Audioquest? I do use Audioquest balanced XLR and RCA interconnects, and my HDMI cable is Cardas, but good grief the speaker cable is expensive. Any thoughts on Analysis Plus?

[Ralf11]

what I meant was did you think the use of fiber to break up the copper chain in the data chain to the DAC was an important or significant effect on SQ or a subtle one?

[Johnseye]

what I meant was did you think the use of fiber to break up the copper chain in the data chain to the DAC was an important or significant effect on SQ or a subtle one?

Subtle. I'm going to do a thorough with/without sit down regarding the fiber and the microRendu/LPS-1. I've made some macro changes and can now go back to the micro ones.

[TubeLover]

I find it very interesting that you said "using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do". After briefly trying the WE16GA and 10 gauge cables this is exactly what I heard. It's not even that subtle, it's noticeably different. It's a much mellower and smoothed out tone. I can see why those who love tube amps would like it, because it matches that timbre very well. Considering I went down this path of finding speakers that were exceptionally clear and detailed as well as probably the most neutral and clean amp out there, I don't think these cables are for me. Maybe if I give tubes a try one day, but with what I just built, it slightly mutes the dynamics, flattening the music. I switch back to the simple Monoprice 12 gauge cable I was using and what I had been hearing returned.

Cardas might be pushing my budget a little. Are they that much better than Audioquest? I do use Audioquest balanced XLR and RCA interconnects, and my HDMI cable is Cardas, but good grief the speaker cable is expensive. Any thoughts on Analysis Plus?

 

Hmmmm............literally just ordered some of the fabled Western Digital ks13385L1 cable in 10ga for speaker cables. I hope my experience is more positive than yours.

 

JC

[TubeLover]

I find it very interesting that you said "using a cable to tone down the highs like so many try to do". After briefly trying the WE16GA and 10 gauge cables this is exactly what I heard. It's not even that subtle, it's noticeably different. It's a much mellower and smoothed out tone. I can see why those who love tube amps would like it, because it matches that timbre very well. Considering I went down this path of finding speakers that were exceptionally clear and detailed as well as probably the most neutral and clean amp out there, I don't think these cables are for me. Maybe if I give tubes a try one day, but with what I just built, it slightly mutes the dynamics, flattening the music. I switch back to the simple Monoprice 12 gauge cable I was using and what I had been hearing returned.

 

Cardas might be pushing my budget a little. Are they that much better than Audioquest? I do use Audioquest balanced XLR and RCA interconnects, and my HDMI cable is Cardas, but good grief the speaker cable is expensive. Any thoughts on Analysis Plus?

 

In my experience, Analysis Plus is one of the better cable companies out there and makes very solid products that are well designed and constructed. I also cannot fault the quality of Cardas and Audioquest, as their products are at the top of the heap (at least any heap with regards to financial sanity). I was recently loaned a pair of the Audioquest Oak speaker cables and found them better than anything I have previously tried with my system. However, even used, and at close to half price, I probably cannot afford them.

 

JC

[Johnseye]

Hmmmm............literally just ordered some of the fabled Western Digital ks13385L1 cable in 10ga for speaker cables. I hope my experience is more positive than yours.

 

JC

 

I'd really like to hear your opinion once you get the cables. I tried both the 16 and 10 gauge. I thought the 10 was more dynamic, more exciting. Not sure how else to describe it now. I've only put in a few hours of listening on the cables so need to put in more time. I think I'm also going to "borrow" a few different cables from The Cable Company for a good comparison.

 

Your forum name is TubeLover so I'm guessing you like the sound produced by tubes. Maybe these cables fit your system.

[ctsooner]

I'd really like to hear your opinion once you get the cables. I tried both the 16 and 10 gauge. I thought the 10 was more dynamic, more exciting. Not sure how else to describe it now. I've only put in a few hours of listening on the cables so need to put in more time. I think I'm also going to "borrow" a few different cables from The Cable Company for a good comparison.

 

Your forum name is TubeLover so I'm guessing you like the sound produced by tubes. Maybe these cables fit your system.

Nothing like a good old cable fight, lmao...j/k.

 

I like the Oak, but honestly, the Castle Rock is about as good as anyone needs to go if you have to ask about price of a cable. I've heard them with speakers I don't like as well as ones I love an that's what I purchased. I could have gone to the Meteor's, but decided I liked the Castle Rock as much.

 

If someone can afford the lowest price AQ cable that has a DBS unit on it, then get it and don't look back. It just keeps the cable broken in. Some folks don't believe in directionality of a cable, but a metallurgist will talk about grain boundaries etc.. It's all too technical for me. I just hook up and listen.

 

I"ve only heard the Analysis plus once and it was fine. Nothing wrong with it. Wasn't quite as neutral as the Cardas or AQ cables as we had those in the system too. Not as bright as the Nordost either, which to me was a big plus. I hated the Nordost Odin with the B&W 802 D4 I think they call it. Latest version. They also had another cable in there that's new to the market. Not impressed at all.

 

Most dealers have a couple of cable companies they get a great mark up on and use them. They are in business to make money too and many don't audition cables like we do or like a manufacturer often will. Most I know voice their equipment with Cardas and AQ cables. It's often times their relationship with the founders, but honestly it's what's most neutral. What folks also don't realize is that Cardas supplies 75% of the wire to cable companies. That's an industry reality. That doesn't mean they sell the best cable as some companies add things to the wire and they spec it out differently, but the wire itself if most often Cardas.

 

I have AQ because I feel it's the most neutral in my system. I have had a lot of cable in and out over the years from top of the line MIT (which I also have owned for years and liked. Bruce Brisson is a great engineer (invented Monster cable for Noel Lee and got screwed and then had Karen Sumner make his cable and then she stole his stuff and started Transparent) and makes a nice cable, but not as neutral as AQ to my ears.

 

As for the tube vs SS argument. I have owned CJ, Audio Research, Jadis, Quicksilver (GREAT tube value), Audible Illusions and some others over the years. I listened to Ayre and fell in love. Neither SS nor tube, just right. It's not cheap, but it's worth it if you are spending X amount on a stereo as it punches above it's price range and many feel that way. Highly successful company as was Avalon in the day when Charley Hanson was the chief engineer there.

 

In the AA and Benchmark price ranges, you can go many directions. Much of design of any component is what the product doesn't do. That's why I love Vandersteen speakers. Richard has been around and listens to folks. He gives you an honest representation in the price ranges. He has the best selling high end speaker of all time because of how he's set up his company and run it. HE didn't market the way he should have the way David Wilson did. If he had, he'd be the 'Wilson' of audio. He wanted to just give an honest. product. NAD does the same thing. Rotel is right there too.

 

If I was looking at spending 2k for a pre/amp, I'd audition the Belles integrated. If you can spend a bit more, listen to their separates. They are crazy good for the price. Belles has always offered some of the best value in high end audio and his stuff is built extremely well. Another company I like that isn't in the US is Heed. I just sold a Heed phono stage with an external LPS. They are half size components and crush the competition. I don't know how much they cost, but they are always less than the competition. Just killer values.

 

Audio Connection in NJ has them. I know a few others do, but they aren't widely sold as many dealers don't know much about them or they feel customers won't buy a smaller cabinet component as they don't think it's going to sound as good as a full size piece, which we all know isn't always the case.

 

Just more suggestions for you to listen to, lol.

[Johnseye]

In my experience, Analysis Plus is one of the better cable companies out there and makes very solid products that are well designed and constructed. I also cannot fault the quality of Cardas and Audioquest, as their products are at the top of the heap (at least any heap with regards to financial sanity). I was recently loaned a pair of the Audioquest Oak speaker cables and found them better than anything I have previously tried with my system. However, even used, and at close to half price, I probably cannot afford them.

 

JC

 

So as I learn more about cable materials and how they impact sound I'm starting to know why the WE cables sound the way they do. Without going into detail, silver is the most conductive or offers the least resistance of all metal. It will have it's own sound signature because of this and is considered more open or transparent. Similar to what I was looking for in a speaker. Copper is the next best conductor (less resistance). Tin, which coats all the copper strands in the WE cable is way down at #12 on the conductor list. Because it has more resistance it has a different sound from both silver and copper. Now this isn't pure tin, but the tin has an impact on the copper. This is a more warmer sound, or a more dampened sound. One often associated with tubes. A closer match in timbre to tubes. It can also warm up the sound of a bright system. I think it's just another color we can use to paint the canvas of our listening environment.

 

I'm going to give Clear Day silver cables a try. I've read some very good things, and it's the most affordable pure silver, solid strand cable I've found. I may give some other copper cables a go as well. Still looking and learning.

[Ralf11]

you are either on the bus or off the bus, and I am going to have to jump ship on cables...

 

I don't understand why silver being the most conductive would change the sound.

 

http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/

 

 

also it is important to distinguish speaker cables from interconnect cables...