microRendu, NUC, JRiver and Roon

[zackthedog]

Background: I currently have a very simple Windows 2012 R2 Server (think CAPS) with everything non-essential turned off, using Audiophile Optimizer and Fidelizer. My digital music is stored on a Synology NAS. I've been running JRiver and now Roon as well. For the record, after testing yesterday's Roon 1.3 release I can't hear a difference between JRiver and Roon. I think I might be able to sometimes, but no. The server connects to an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC via USB. The DAC is directly connected to an Emotiva amp. Speakers are B&W 803s.

 

I'm trying to understand what benefit a microRendu would serve. If it could replace my Windows Server I'm in. But it appears that it can't actually run the Roon software, or JRiver. Same with other "media servers" that are "Roon Ready". I was looking at Audio Alchemy's new DMP-1 which runs it's own media server interface and is Roon Ready, but you can't actually install Roon on it. If I can't eliminate the device hosting Roon or JRiver, then what's the point of adding another device in between it and the DAC? Just to act as some kind of a filter if it doesn't end up causing new problems? If I'm missing something please educate me.

 

That leads me to the Intel NUC. I'm looking to decrease the footprint and energy use of my current Server. With it I can install Windows Server with AO and Fidelizer and use it to host Roon and JRiver. It's not as elegant as the microRendu or DMP-1 as far as simplified hardware and USB bus is concerned but what else is there that can host JRiver and/or Roon and connect directly to the DAC?

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you might try Snakeoil-OS on your NUC. It's a minimal Ubuntu core with multiple player choices, including MPD and Squeezelite. This might accomplish your goal of reducing the "electronic footprint" of your server. I run it on a little XYC mini-PC and I think it sounds terrific. It bypasses the clunky OS's and all that "optimizer" software. It's free and you can try it out by booting from a USB stick. I haven't heard the microRendu but this sounds awfully good to me. It's worth a try.

[RickB]

Hi Johnseye, I'm new to this so I was searching the forum for this same question thinking there would be a low cost, simple all-in-one solution to buy off the shelf. Uhm, apparently not. I'm thinking of using a NUC for the flexibility. Android/PC/Mac Air control points. Roon, J River media players. Tidal, Spotify streaming services. It seems to me that this stuff hasn't really been figured out yet so I'm thinking about getting a device that cleans up the mess at the end of the line. You might check out:

 

afxx series

 

It looks like the afi Audio Isolator and USB Module may offer a very high quality solution. The price is up there at $1300 but I think it would eliminate the MicroRendu and LPS.

 

One thing, among many, that I'm not clear on is whether or not the NUC preforms the DAC function even though the signal is headed out to the external DAC anyway. Do you bypass the NUC's DAC? What kind of signal is that called?

 

Let us know what solutions you end up with.

[JohnSwenson]

What's the benefit of the microrendu over the Regen? With Roon you still need the Roon Core installed on a PC/Server, and you don't need the microrendu for Roon to play music through the DAC.

 

Hi Johnseye,

I'm the developer of both the microRendu and the REGEN, I hope I can give you some useful information between them and when you might want to use one over the other.

 

There seems to be two different mechanisms that seem to affect the sound quality coming out of most USB input DACs: Signal Integrity (SI) and Leakage Loops (LL). Both of these are at play in most systems to various degrees. I'll discuss these separately.

 

The purpose for both the microRendu and the REGEN is to improve the SI of the USB signal going to the DAC. Why does this make any difference? Nobody really knows. There have been several hypothesis why this may be but tracking down what is going on has been very difficult. This has made the engineering of devices difficult because different designers latch on to different hypothesis and design equipment based on that, but nobody REALLY knows what is going on in the DAC and how these differences are affecting the sound.

 

My designs are based primarily on optimizing for two things, short cable length and good SI, primarily good wave shape and low jitter. I have seen good correlation of these two things with improved sound. As noted, other designers are going after different things.

 

The REGEN is a simple buffer device that is small and light weight, so it can be placed in back of the DAC with a very short cable. It has low noise power regulators and a low jitter clock, which help with the SI part. It uses a USB hub chip to do this, which contains multiple USB PHYs (the part that interfaces to the PHYSICAL layer (the actual wires), hence the name). One is connected to the upstream cable and another is connected to the downstream cable.

 

Unfortunately the PHY and logic circuitry connected to the upstream cable generate power and ground plane noise which increase the jitter and noise on the downstream PHY. Note that this is NOT noise coming from the computer, it is generated in the hub chip itself. This decrease in SI (lower jitter is higher signal integrity) seems to be dependent on the SI of the signal coming from the upstream host. The SI coming out is still significantly better than the SI coming from the host, but changes in SI from the host still make a change in the SI going to the host. The REGEN does improve things, but it is not perfect, it is still impacted by what is happening at the source.

 

So in order to get really good sound even with a REGEN you STILL need to play with the source computer, making its SI as good as possible.

 

This is where the microRendu comes in. It is a computer that is designed to produce very high SI on its USB port, and is also small and light weight so it can fit back behind the DAC with a very short USB cable. It was designed to be doing very little which helps improve SI. To make this works it needs another computer to run a "server" that deals with the music database, reading files, doing searches etc. The microRendu just does the minimum necessary to read the Ethernet protocol being used, extract the audio data and send it to the USB port. It can be run with different programs that know how to interpret several different protocols used for transferring audio data over a network.

 

With a REGEN driving the DAC, the computer outputing the USB stream has to be a very good one (very high SI) in order to get the best out of the DAC. With a microRendu driving the DAC, you still need a computer running the server that sends it data, BUT that computer does NOT have to be an exceptional computer, and it does NOT have to be anywhere near the audio system.

 

I guess you are trying to say, given two systems, one built with a computer driving a REGEN and one built with a microRendu driving the DAC, if both were optimized to do their best, which would sound the best? If the above were really done (both optimized for the best they could do), the results would be about the same.

 

BUT that is ignoring leakage loops, the other major impact on the sound quality. I do not have room here to go into detail on what leakage loops are, I have written extensively on them in many other posts here. The gist is that there are low level currents flowing through the audio system from one power supply to another. The loops go through the AC lines, power supplies and interconnects between devices (including USB cables). Different supplies have differing amounts of these currents. In general SMPS are the worst, linears are usually significantly better. There are some recent power supplies that are still connected to the AC mains but completely block these currents. Batteries also block the currents.

 

Most computers use SMPS for their power, which means the leakage loop through the computer, over the USB cable to the DAC is a major source of sound degradation. This is a primary reason why powering a computer from a linear supply improves things, the leakage loop with the leanear supply is less. (there ARE other reasons, but this is the primary one). Note that this is NOT the infamous "massive computer noise" going over the USB cable, it is leakage current from the power supply. The only thing it has to do with the computer is that as the computer works harder the leakage current from the PS can increase.

 

This is significant because a general purpose computer is difficult to run off of one of these recent supplies that block leakage currents or batteries, but the low powered microRendu will run very well off of them. (other low powered computers can also do that, but they may not have as high an SI). Thus a microRendu running off a leakage blocking supply, will probably give better sound than a highly optimized computer running off a SMPS or regular linear supply driving a REGEN.

 

There is the other issue of network implementations also affecting sound from the DAC, but I am not sure what is going on there. I personally have not heard this, but others have, I don't know what is going on with this. At this point none of the possible hypothesis make any sense to me, so there is a lot of work needed to be done to find out what is going on with this.

 

Did this help with your understanding of what is going on here?

 

John S.

[RickB]

Thanks John S., I find that very helpful. Would you mind taking a look at my post above yours and let me know your thoughts on the afi solution vs. a combinded MicroRendu, LPS, REGEN solution.

 

Thanks a bunch

[4est]

How do you like your Maggie 1.7's? I was listening to the 3.7i the other day. Those things open up the space like nothing I've ever heard. The sound was everywhere with good imaging. I think they lacked the detail I get out of my B&W's though, and my theater room is narrow and long. I can't fit the 3.7i's in there but I could fit the 1.7i's. It would be tight though and the Maggies need space away from the wall. I'm torn.

 

Mostly from back walls!

[Johnseye]

Hi Johnseye,

I'm the developer of both the microRendu and the REGEN, I hope I can give you some useful information between them and when you might want to use one over the other.

 

There seems to be two different mechanisms that seem to affect the sound quality coming out of most USB input DACs: Signal Integrity (SI) and Leakage Loops (LL). Both of these are at play in most systems to various degrees. I'll discuss these separately.

Did this help with your understanding of what is going on here?

 

John S.

Thanks for the detailed explanation John, it's exactly what I was looking for. Sonore should put it up on their website. You've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this. It's too bad optical USB isn't truly optical end to end and contain PHYs. That might eliminate the transient issue. I'm looking forward to hearing the difference with the microRendu.

[muski]

Did this help with your understanding of what is going on here?

John S.

 

Thanks, John. Outstanding explanation!

[rogerdn]

Hi Johnseye,

I'm the developer of both the microRendu and the REGEN, I hope I can give you some useful information between them and when you might want to use one over the other.

 

There seems to be two different mechanisms that seem to affect the sound quality coming out of most USB input DACs: Signal Integrity (SI) and Leakage Loops (LL). Both of these are at play in most systems to various degrees. I'll discuss these separately.

 

The purpose for both the microRendu and the REGEN is to improve the SI of the USB signal going to the DAC. Why does this make any difference? Nobody really knows. There have been several hypothesis why this may be but tracking down what is going on has been very difficult. This has made the engineering of devices difficult because different designers latch on to different hypothesis and design equipment based on that, but nobody REALLY knows what is going on in the DAC and how these differences are affecting the sound.

 

My designs are based primarily on optimizing for two things, short cable length and good SI, primarily good wave shape and low jitter. I have seen good correlation of these two things with improved sound. As noted, other designers are going after different things.

 

The REGEN is a simple buffer device that is small and light weight, so it can be placed in back of the DAC with a very short cable. It has low noise power regulators and a low jitter clock, which help with the SI part. It uses a USB hub chip to do this, which contains multiple USB PHYs (the part that interfaces to the PHYSICAL layer (the actual wires), hence the name). One is connected to the upstream cable and another is connected to the downstream cable.

 

Unfortunately the PHY and logic circuitry connected to the upstream cable generate power and ground plane noise which increase the jitter and noise on the downstream PHY. Note that this is NOT noise coming from the computer, it is generated in the hub chip itself. This decrease in SI (lower jitter is higher signal integrity) seems to be dependent on the SI of the signal coming from the upstream host. The SI coming out is still significantly better than the SI coming from the host, but changes in SI from the host still make a change in the SI going to the host. The REGEN does improve things, but it is not perfect, it is still impacted by what is happening at the source.

 

So in order to get really good sound even with a REGEN you STILL need to play with the source computer, making its SI as good as possible.

 

This is where the microRendu comes in. It is a computer that is designed to produce very high SI on its USB port, and is also small and light weight so it can fit back behind the DAC with a very short USB cable. It was designed to be doing very little which helps improve SI. To make this works it needs another computer to run a "server" that deals with the music database, reading files, doing searches etc. The microRendu just does the minimum necessary to read the Ethernet protocol being used, extract the audio data and send it to the USB port. It can be run with different programs that know how to interpret several different protocols used for transferring audio data over a network.

 

With a REGEN driving the DAC, the computer outputing the USB stream has to be a very good one (very high SI) in order to get the best out of the DAC. With a microRendu driving the DAC, you still need a computer running the server that sends it data, BUT that computer does NOT have to be an exceptional computer, and it does NOT have to be anywhere near the audio system.

 

I guess you are trying to say, given two systems, one built with a computer driving a REGEN and one built with a microRendu driving the DAC, if both were optimized to do their best, which would sound the best? If the above were really done (both optimized for the best they could do), the results would be about the same.

 

BUT that is ignoring leakage loops, the other major impact on the sound quality. I do not have room here to go into detail on what leakage loops are, I have written extensively on them in many other posts here. The gist is that there are low level currents flowing through the audio system from one power supply to another. The loops go through the AC lines, power supplies and interconnects between devices (including USB cables). Different supplies have differing amounts of these currents. In general SMPS are the worst, linears are usually significantly better. There are some recent power supplies that are still connected to the AC mains but completely block these currents. Batteries also block the currents.

 

Most computers use SMPS for their power, which means the leakage loop through the computer, over the USB cable to the DAC is a major source of sound degradation. This is a primary reason why powering a computer from a linear supply improves things, the leakage loop with the leanear supply is less. (there ARE other reasons, but this is the primary one). Note that this is NOT the infamous "massive computer noise" going over the USB cable, it is leakage current from the power supply. The only thing it has to do with the computer is that as the computer works harder the leakage current from the PS can increase.

 

This is significant because a general purpose computer is difficult to run off of one of these recent supplies that block leakage currents or batteries, but the low powered microRendu will run very well off of them. (other low powered computers can also do that, but they may not have as high an SI). Thus a microRendu running off a leakage blocking supply, will probably give better sound than a highly optimized computer running off a SMPS or regular linear supply driving a REGEN.

 

There is the other issue of network implementations also affecting sound from the DAC, but I am not sure what is going on there. I personally have not heard this, but others have, I don't know what is going on with this. At this point none of the possible hypothesis make any sense to me, so there is a lot of work needed to be done to find out what is going on with this.

 

Did this help with your understanding of what is going on here?

 

John S.

 

John, Thks for the explanation, I'm using my microRendu with a PS Audio LANRover USB Transporter, would a short USB cable (microRendu to the Sender) be recommended here ?

[Johnseye]

John, Thks for the explanation, I'm using my microRendu with a PS Audio LANRover USB Transporter, would a short USB cable (microRendu to the Sender) be recommended here ?

You ask a very good question. I just ordered the 200mm cable from Curious for the connection from my DAC to microRendu. I think the shorter the better. If you could get away with a USB A to B adapter that might be even better.

 

I have a question for you. Why use the LANRover when you'll be coming into the microRendu from ethernet and could go direct to your DAC with USB?

 

Perhaps John S will respond as well.

[rogerdn]

You ask a very good question. I just ordered the 200mm cable from Curious for the connection from my DAC to microRendu. I think the shorter the better. If you could get away with a USB A to B adapter that might be even better.

 

I have a question for you. Why use the LANRover when you'll be coming into the microRendu from ethernet and could go direct to your DAC with USB?

 

Perhaps John S will respond as well.

 

Well I'm not a very technical guy but thought that was the purpose of the LR, anyway it improved my sq (compared to direct in as you say) so I continue to use it.

[Johnseye]

Well I'm not a very technical guy but thought that was the purpose of the LR, anyway it improved my sq (compared to direct in as you say) so I continue to use it.

I replied to you from work, just got home and my new microRendu was there waiting, delivered today. It comes with a USB A to B adapter.

 

From my understanding of the microRendu and LANRover, you should be able to eliminate the LANRover completely. Maybe you can try with and without and post your findings.

[rogerdn]

I replied to you from work, just got home and my new microRendu was there waiting, delivered today. It comes with a USB A to B adapter.

 

From my understanding of the microRendu and LANRover, you should be able to eliminate the LANRover completely. Maybe you can try with and without and post your findings.

 

As I said I did that and thought it improved sq. Let us know how you like the microRendu.

[sgr]

Well I'm not a very technical guy but thought that was the purpose of the LR, anyway it improved my sq (compared to direct in as you say) so I continue to use it.

 

I'd like to chime in hear too. I've read and understood the many technical reasons one should be content with just the microRendu straight into the DAC. It doesn't really make sense to use a LAN Rover after the microRendu. But once you've tried it you'll be sold.

The LAN Rover keeps all the excellent sound qualities the microRendu brings to the party, (and they are considerable and well documented) but adds pin point imaging, wall through wall soundstage, depth beyond the back wall, and just a wee bit of (analog) to the mix.

 

One can hear this while using the power supply PS Audio includes with the LAN Rover but to really get the best from the duo make sure to power the LAN Rover with a Linear Power Supply, LPS-1, or battery. I don't know if the Lps1 will drive both, I'll try this weekend. If one does want to give this a try, you'll need to have a cord built to connect power the the LAN Rover. Be aware that the LAN Rover needs a 4.75x1.7 mm connector not the (standard 5.5x2.1 mm most use. There are right angle adapters on Amazon and EBay to do this.

 

Another strange combo I've tried is using a Regen after the LAN Rover and microRendu combo. When I've tried this in the past, the bass articulation and power have increased pretty dramatically but maybe I lost a little bit as I was not powering the Regen with great power. But this weekend I've enough LPS-1s, batteries, and Linear Power Supplies to really put this system through its paces. I use Curious cables and the solid USB connectors, BlueJeans Cat 6a, and the Supra Cat 8 into the MicroRendu.

 

Almost forgot, in front of the microRendu, is the TPlink MC200cms fiber with battery power.

 

So the chain is: TPLINK MC200cms 1 powered by hdplex > TPLINK MC200cms 2 powered by battery, via BJ CAT 6a > microRendu & LPS1 via AB hard adapter> LAN Rover (1) via Supra CAT 8 > LAN Rover 2 &LPS-1 via Supra CAT 8> Curios USB > DAC

 

The Regen powered b the LPS-1, battery, or Linear Power Supply (if used would connect to DAC via Curious USB.

 

I didn't start out planning this way, wanted to sell microRendu, LAN Rover, or Regen but why not experiment and I'm glad I did.

[rogerdn]

I'd like to chime in hear too. I've read and understood the many technical reasons one should be content with just the microRendu straight into the DAC. It doesn't really make sense to use a LAN Rover after the microRendu. But once you've tried it you'll be sold.

The LAN Rover keeps all the excellent sound qualities the microRendu brings to the party, (and they are considerable and well documented) but adds pin point imaging, wall through wall soundstage, depth beyond the back wall, and just a wee bit of (analog) to the mix.

 

One can hear this while using the power supply PS Audio includes with the LAN Rover but to really get the best from the duo make sure to power the LAN Rover with a Linear Power Supply, LPS-1, or battery. I don't know if the Lps1 will drive both, I'll try this weekend. If one does want to give this a try, you'll need to have a cord built to connect power the the LAN Rover. Be aware that the LAN Rover needs a 4.75x1.7 mm connector not the (standard 5.5x2.1 mm most use. There are right angle adapters on Amazon and EBay to do this.

 

Another strange combo I've tried is using a Regen after the LAN Rover and microRendu combo. When I've tried this in the past, the bass articulation and power have increased pretty dramatically but maybe I lost a little bit as I was not powering the Regen with great power. But this weekend I've enough LPS-1s, batteries, and Linear Power Supplies to really put this system through its paces. I use Curious cables and the solid USB connectors, BlueJeans Cat 6a, and the Supra Cat 8 into the MicroRendu.

 

Almost forgot, in front of the microRendu, is the TPlink MC200cms fiber with battery power.

 

So the chain is: TPLINK MC200cms 1 powered by hdplex > TPLINK MC200cms 2 powered by battery, via BJ CAT 6a > microRendu & LPS1 via AB hard adapter> LAN Rover (1) via Supra CAT 8 > LAN Rover 2 &LPS-1 via Supra CAT 8> Curios USB > DAC

 

The Regen powered b the LPS-1, battery, or Linear Power Supply (if used would connect to DAC via Curious USB.

 

I didn't start out planning this way, wanted to sell microRendu, LAN Rover, or Regen but why not experiment and I'm glad I did.

 

Thks for your experience, yes I have had an LPS-1 on mine too and it was another good improvement. I sold my Regen without trying it with the mR but I've since heard good things about the combo.

[JohnSwenson]

I replied to you from work, just got home and my new microRendu was there waiting, delivered today. It comes with a USB A to B adapter.

 

From my understanding of the microRendu and LANRover, you should be able to eliminate the LANRover completely. Maybe you can try with and without and post your findings.

 

It has to do with leakage loops, in particular which power supplies are used with different devices. The LANRover breaks a leakage loop through the USB cable. So if your microRendu is NOT powered from batteries or LPS-1 you will most likely have a leakage loop with the DAC that the LANRover can break. If the microRendu IS powered by batteries or LPS-1 then there is no leakage loop and a LANRover should not be needed. When using the LANRover (or REGEN etc) if you don't power it with batteries or LPS-1 you create a leakage loop through THAT supply, which may negate the improvement the device gives. This is frequently why people give reports like "it improved X but made Y worse".

 

The upshot of this is that where a device is in the system and what power supply is used with it can radically change how effective a device is.

 

John S.

[davide256]

It has to do with leakage loops, in particular which power supplies are used with different devices. The LANRover breaks a leakage loop through the USB cable. So if your microRendu is NOT powered from batteries or LPS-1 you will most likely have a leakage loop with the DAC that the LANRover can break. If the microRendu IS powered by batteries or LPS-1 then there is no leakage loop and a LANRover should not be needed. When using the LANRover (or REGEN etc) if you don't power it with batteries or LPS-1 you create a leakage loop through THAT supply, which may negate the improvement the device gives. This is frequently why people give reports like "it improved X but made Y worse".

 

The upshot of this is that where a device is in the system and what power supply is used with it can radically change how effective a device is.

 

John S.

Hmmm, this may explain why I like the iFi Nano vs the Gustard U12 with microrendu for asynch USB converter... the Nano is battery powered whereas the U12 is AC powered.

[davide256]

It has to do with leakage loops, in particular which power supplies are used with different devices. The LANRover breaks a leakage loop through the USB cable. So if your microRendu is NOT powered from batteries or LPS-1 you will most likely have a leakage loop with the DAC that the LANRover can break. If the microRendu IS powered by batteries or LPS-1 then there is no leakage loop and a LANRover should not be needed. When using the LANRover (or REGEN etc) if you don't power it with batteries or LPS-1 you create a leakage loop through THAT supply, which may negate the improvement the device gives. This is frequently why people give reports like "it improved X but made Y worse".

 

The upshot of this is that where a device is in the system and what power supply is used with it can radically change how effective a device is.

 

John S.

Brings another question to mind; all things being equal should a battery powered DAC perform better than an AC powered DAC? My experience to date with battery powered DAC's is that they lose authority in the lowest octave of bass, where admittedly none of those I played with cost over $600

[Johnseye]

As I said I did that and thought it improved sq. Let us know how you like the microRendu.

I've been using the microRendu for a little over a week now. I used it for about 2 days without gig FMCs. I did notice a difference right away. Whatever music I listened to was more energetic. That's the best way to describe it. There's more excitement to the sound. Maybe it's resonance. So the sound has improved in my opinion and by comparison to the cost of improving sound quality in the hobby, it's relatively inexpensive. It is a tweak though and not huge impact like a speaker upgrade can provide.

 

I've made some other changes over the last 3 days. I'm now using a Curious Cable Regen USB cable instead of my Audioquest Cinnamon. I swapped out the Emotiva amp with a Benchmark AHB2. The amp change was on the same level if not a bit more than the mRendu addition. Last night I brought home a pair of Paradigm Personal 3Fs and that was a huge improvement in fidelity. I think the AHB2 in combination with the Persona is a huge improvement. I'll put the Emotiva back in line to drive the Persona's and the same with the mRendu as I have a few new variables now.

 

For the money the microRendu is a decent tweak, but it's still a tweak vs a massive improvement. The Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC was a massive improvement and the mRendu helps it get to its full potential.

[vortecjr]

I've been using the microRendu for a little over a week now. I used it for about 2 days without gig FMCs. I did notice a difference right away. Whatever music I listened to was more energetic. That's the best way to describe it. There's more excitement to the sound. Maybe it's resonance. So the sound has improved in my opinion and by comparison to the cost of improving sound quality in the hobby, it's relatively inexpensive. It is a tweak though and not huge impact like a speaker upgrade can provide.

 

I've made some other changes over the last 3 days. I'm now using a Curious Cable Regen USB cable instead of my Audioquest Cinnamon. I swapped out the Emotiva amp with a Benchmark AHB2. The amp change was on the same level if not a bit more than the mRendu addition. Last night I brought home a pair of Paradigm Personal 3Fs and that was a huge improvement in fidelity. I think the AHB2 in combination with the Persona is a huge improvement. I'll put the Emotiva back in line to drive the Persona's and the same with the mRendu as I have a few new variables now.

 

For the money the microRendu is a decent tweak, but it's still a tweak vs a massive improvement. The Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC was a massive improvement and the mRendu helps it get to its full potential.

 

Which PS are you using with the microRendu?

[Johnseye]

Which PS are you using with the microRendu?

The iFi for the moment. I have the LPS-1 on order. We'll see how that impacts things further. What's the recommended battery pack to use with either the mRendu or FMCs?

[vortecjr]

The iFi for the moment. I have the LPS-1 on order. We'll see how that impacts things further. What's the recommended battery pack to use with either the mRendu or FMCs?

 

Excellent. We don't have a recommended battery supply.

[CJH]

As for batteries these work fine 2S 7.4V 5200mAh Lipo Battery--check Amazon or Ebay. You will need to add 5.5x2.1 connectors which can also be found on Ebay.--a Lipo balanced charger of course and as a final comment--batteries are a major PITA.

 

I would like to ask John S. for any additional thoughts on SI affecting the sound. I have pretty much killed ground leakage problems in my system as everything is run on batteries (laptop, router, fiber network, uRendu, DAC) except for amps. I still easily hear changes when listening to the music system when the laptop is plugged into the AC mains (charging) vs. running on battery--even though it is not physically connected to the rest of the system (wifi to router). I can hear changes when the laptop screen is On vs. Off (I have it set to go black after 30 seconds). I can also hear a degradation in sound quality if an external USB HD is connected to the laptop. This made sense with an external HD that was powered by wall-wart so I moved those music files to a 4TB 2.5 external HD that is powered from the USB. This lessened the degradation because it is now powered by the laptop while listening in battery mode, but is still apparent.

I understand this is way out there for many forum members--save your digs. Yes I have verified sonic changes with others listening. I am just passing this along to John for comment (if he cares to) or anyone else that has experienced similar findings and may have useful input.

CJH

[plissken]

Dave, thanks for your response. I'd like to dig into the mrendu a bit if you don't mind.

With the mrendu in line I assume the data stream path goes from NAS -> PC hosting Roon (or other application) -> mrendu -> DAC. If the mrendu is only taking that stream via ethernet and converting it to USB then what contaminants are we talking about? Is it only noise introduced from the PCs power supply? Sonore states it has "high quality low noise and ultra low noise regulators" and "fixed frequency low jitter oscillators" If that's the case wouldn't a device like the Shiit Wyrd or Regen do the exact same thing?

 

I don't follow the optical Ethernet, or fiber benefit. The mrendu and the Synology have an RJ45 connection. They don't have an SFP so you also need fiber media converters which also have their own power supply. You not only introduce another power supply but you also add the circuitry of the converter. Unless you're going over 300 ft. what's the point?

 

It's not that Roon itself is the library application, it's that it must run on a PC which introduces that into the data path. If the mrendu could run the Roon app itself you eliminate the PC all together. I don't know what processor, or how much ram it uses but am guessing it's not enough for the Roon core.

 

Think of it like this:

 

HP makes a bunch of printers with USB connections. People want to be able to print to the printer from multiple computers in an office.

 

HP makes a product called the jet direct. It has both USB and Ethernet connection. You plug the printer into USB, you plug the Jet Direct into the network and configured it's IP address or Name Lookup.

 

You then go to the server and add a new printer. Use the IP address and give it a share name so any computer can see the printer on the network. Jobs go to the server then the server sends it to the IP address of the 'renderer'.

 

Same thing for the MicroRendu. It's simply network enabling a DAC that otherwise doesn't have any networking capability.

 

With a competently designed DAC, I'm dubious as to the benefits of the MicroRendu. Its what, almost $700? I would get a low wattage Windows 10 box and linear, regulated supply for another $30-40.

 

Or just go with wireless. Get a dedicated wireless router and setup for Access Point mode and do away with the cabling all together.

 

In my other thread no one that has tried could hear a difference between 315 foot of $0.30 / foot Ethernet cabling and 12 foot of $27.50 / foot cabling. That's right a 12 foot, really expensive cable, couldn't outperform 315 foot of generic cabling.

 

Take the extra ~$500 saved and spend that on a DAC where the manufactured didn't bungle the USB implementation like so many here would like you to believe that almost all have.

[Johnseye]

Think of it like this:

 

HP makes a bunch of printers with USB connections. People want to be able to print to the printer from multiple computers in an office.

 

HP makes a product called the jet direct. It has both USB and Ethernet connection. You plug the printer into USB, you plug the Jet Direct into the network and configured it's IP address or Name Lookup.

 

You then go to the server and add a new printer. Use the IP address and give it a share name so any computer can see the printer on the network. Jobs go to the server then the server sends it to the IP address of the 'renderer'.

 

Same thing for the MicroRendu. It's simply network enabling a DAC that otherwise doesn't have any networking capability.

 

With a competently designed DAC, I'm dubious as to the benefits of the MicroRendu. Its what, almost $700? I would get a low wattage Windows 10 box and linear, regulated supply for another $30-40.

 

Or just go with wireless. Get a dedicated wireless router and setup for Access Point mode and do away with the cabling all together.

 

In my other thread no one that has tried could hear a difference between 315 foot of $0.30 / foot Ethernet cabling and 12 foot of $27.50 / foot cabling. That's right a 12 foot, really expensive cable, couldn't outperform 315 foot of generic cabling.

 

Take the extra ~$500 saved and spend that on a DAC where the manufactured didn't bungle the USB implementation like so many here would like you to believe that almost all have.

 

Good analogy with JetDirect. Many would tell you the mRendu does more than network enabling the dac. That was essentially the intention of this thread, to discover what that was. I think the consensus is that it allows for the cleanest power at the last stage of the chain before the dac. To your point, why not just use a linear PS to power the low wattage media server. I know an engineer like Peter Madnick designed the USB on the DDP-1 correctly. It's the USB on the PC that would be in question if anything. I can build myself a very capable PC. I've taken a look at the Sonic Transporter, know the case brand that is being used, identified a motherboard that fits the Sonic T's advertised specs, etc. I asked Andrew at Small Green if there was anything about his PC's hardware that was different than a NUC other than the fan, there isn't. He doesn't use a modified USB like the SOTM, the 19v PS isn't linear. There is nothing special about the Sonic Transporter's Windows version. The OS doesn't come with AO or Fidelizer. You could use their Sonicorbiter linux based OS, but that's not what I want to do. Based on everything I've read in these forums that OS is locked down making changes nearly impossible. For the money I could build something better, but many people can't so there's the value to them.

 

As far as the ethernet cable is concerned I completely agree with you. It's carrying data packets and as long as there's no packet loss then staying within ethernet specs will do what's needed. Cabling is a finicky subject because there is some validity when it comes to cables carrying an analog signal such as RCA and speaker. There may even be some validity with the USB cable argument although far less audible than with RCA and speaker. But I've been an IT systems engineer for 20 years and at lengths within spec there's going to be no packet loss unless the environment is at risk for electro magnetic interference (EMI). While this is possible, it's highly unlikely in your home. I chuckle at $250 Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable, and I lose respect for anyone peddling the sonic benefits. If they heard a difference then whatever cable they compared it to had an issue.

 

I do get the argument that the noise generated from a standard PC power supply could travel along the cable and result in some interference the DAC needs to deal with. This is why I kind of buy into the benefit of a media converter. In my world I avoid media converters like the plague and prefer SFPs at the switch. That's because they are a point of failure and has nothing to do with audio. Anyone could build a PC with a fiber ethernet card and wallah! no more PC generated noise on the network. The device on the other end would need a fiber connection however and I haven't seen that yet, so a converter is needed there.

 

I did hear a difference with the mRendu in line but I have a lot more experimenting to do, and I need to get others opinions of my system so I'm not introducing bias.

[plissken]

It's the USB on the PC that would be in question if anything.

 

I've yet to see anyone provide anything about the class of USB ports on current machines that would lead me to believe they deviate from the standard.

 

If that's the case however then Chris should get a new domain name and move everything over to it and call it nicherendererphile.com.

 

I can build myself a very capable PC. I've taken a look at the Sonic Transporter, know the case brand that is being used, identified a motherboard that fits the Sonic T's advertised specs, etc. I asked Andrew at Small Green if there was anything about his PC's hardware that was different than a NUC other than the fan, there isn't. He doesn't use a modified USB like the SOTM, the 19v PS isn't linear. There is nothing special about the Sonic Transporter's Windows version. The OS doesn't come with AO or Fidelizer. You could use their Sonicorbiter linux based OS, but that's not what I want to do. Based on everything I've read in these forums that OS is locked down making changes nearly impossible. For the money I could build something better, but many people can't so there's the value to them.

 

I believe in treating a computer system as a dedicated appliance. I turn off all the un-needed services, run with a linear regulated power supply (they aren't expensive), and finally use Acronis to image it.

 

 

As far as the ethernet cable is concerned I completely agree with you. It's carrying data packets and as long as there's no packet loss then staying within ethernet specs will do what's needed. Cabling is a finicky subject because there is some validity when it comes to cables carrying an analog signal such as RCA and speaker. There may even be some validity with the USB cable argument although far less audible than with RCA and speaker. But I've been an IT systems engineer for 20 years and at lengths within spec there's going to be no packet loss unless the environment is at risk for electro magnetic interference (EMI). While this is possible, it's highly unlikely in your home. I chuckle at $250 Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable, and I lose respect for anyone peddling the sonic benefits. If they heard a difference then whatever cable they compared it to had an issue.

 

CAT6, as written about in Siemons "The Antenna Myth" shows bulk, affordable, cabling to be extremely noise resistant to the point of immunity to externally induced noise.

 

T.I's paper on 10/100 PHY Radiated emissions speaks to the Achilles heal of networking equipment: The single ended power supply. So even using a linear, regulated supply, isn't optimal. You need to use balanced power. I've done server rooms where we feed everything on a DC loop with a balanced power system. I believe in Norway the grid there is balanced. So if you are a true audiophile of means, just move there :-)

 

The fact of the matter is that I setup a switch with LAG and have recorded a few tracks whilst swapping out 315ft generic CAT5e and $330 CAT8 and captured the output and posted it at CA. One person guessed wrong and another couldn't tell any difference.

 

I do get the argument that the noise generated from a standard PC power supply could travel along the cable and result in some interference the DAC needs to deal with. This is why I kind of buy into the benefit of a media converter. In my world I avoid media converters like the plague and prefer SFPs at the switch. That's because they are a point of failure and has nothing to do with audio. Anyone could build a PC with a fiber ethernet card and wallah! no more PC generated noise on the network. The device on the other end would need a fiber connection however and I haven't seen that yet, so a converter is needed there.

 

Agreed and SFP is inexpensive and you can pick up used Cisco and the like for a song now days. For the home just go with wireless.

 

I did hear a difference with the mRendu in line but I have a lot more experimenting to do, and I need to get others opinions of my system so I'm not introducing bias.

 

I'm looking at getting a purpose built streamer to test but I only have balanced inputs for amplification and no support for consumer level outputs.