Schiit Saga vs Freya

[mrvco]

21 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Well Abtr, after going back and forth between the GE GTA I have been using (have yet to try my other one yet) and my Sophia I am starting to come around to your position.  I do believe I hear a bit more "real" and "refined" with the GE now.  I do think the GTA is just a tad too "bloomy" down below 50 hz or so but the rest of the sound has a hard to pin something "extra" over the Sophia - the word is not a "veil" (on the Sophia) but something else hard to describe.  I find myself wanting to leave the GE in...

 

Also, the specs on the Schiit site simply state "Output Impedance: 180 ohms" - did you measure a difference when in passive mode?

 

crenca - Now that you've had some time with the Sophia and GE tubes, have you gone back and compared the Tung Sol?  I believe you said that you ordered a platinum grade Tung Sol, did you get the cryo treatment as well?  And did you order the Sophia tube directly from sophiaelectric.com?  Thanks!

[crenca]

41 minutes ago, Abtr said:

By the way, I'm currently using a 1950s RCA 6SN7GTA (dual side getters) in the Saga, and in my system it sounds better than the GE GTA in every aspect.

 

Well of course it does

 

What is the price range of these RCA's (just so I don't get ripped off)?

[crenca]

16 minutes ago, mrvco said:

 

crenca - Now that you've had some time with the Sophia and GE tubes, have you gone back and compared the Tung Sol?  I believe you said that you ordered a platinum grade Tung Sol, did you get the cryo treatment as well?  And did you order the Sophia tube directly from sophiaelectric.com?  Thanks!

 

I did purchase the "platinum grade" but I did not get the cryo.  I have not gone back to compare (and I should) but I recall liking the fact that the Sophia's treble lacked the grainy harshness of the Tung Sol (not that the Tung Sol was unlistenable or anything - don't want to overstate it).  That said, my Legacy Studio's are known to be bright and the Emotiva amp I was using at the time could not have helped either.  Now that I have a warmish Parasound I should revisit it.

 

I ordered my Sophia one of my favorite dealers Galen Carol:

 

https://www.gcaudio.com/

 

However in this case I think he drop ships them - but the price is the same (actually I think he bettered direct price) and I know he will stand behind the product if there is a problem...

[Abtr]

19 minutes ago, crenca said:

... What is the price range of these RCA's (just so I don't get ripped off)?

I paid $54 for a 1952 sample.

[Abtr]

Correction: my RCA 6SN7GTA tube is made in the USA in 1954 (not in 1952 as stated above). It's sections are matched (Gm = 2600, iP = 11 mA). This RCA tube really sounds amazing in the Saga!

[Abtr]

Well, I made some changes in my system that appear to reduce (analogue) noise and significantly improve the overall dynamics and definition of the reproduced sound/music. Most notably, a Chang Lightspeed mains filter now cleans up HF mains noise and I use a pair of Dave Slagle autoformers (Slagleformers) in between the DAC's analogue output and the Saga. The Saga's volume control is set to maximum, so the Saga only functions as an impedance buffer (to the power amp). The Slagleformers are used for (passive) volume control. Note that this also eliminates the slight but audible 60Hz hum coming from the Saga, especially at lower volume settings.

 

Anyhow, the improved sound made me re-evaluate some tubes that I tried earlier in the Saga, and particularly the solid-state-like realism of the Sophia Electric 6SN7 now sounds great! Possibly better than any of my NOS tubes (I didn't try them all yet).. So, I must revoke my earlier opinion of the Sophia Electric 6SN7, it really is a very nice tube! The best sounding tube for the Saga may be system dependent..  

[zackthedog]

3 hours ago, Abtr said:

Well, I made some changes in my system that appear to reduce (analogue) noise and significantly improve the overall dynamics and definition of the reproduced sound/music. Most notably, a Chang Lightspeed mains filter now cleans up HF mains noise and I use a pair of Dave Slagle autoformers (Slagleformers) in between the DAC's analogue output and the Saga. The Saga's volume control is set to maximum, so the Saga only functions as an impedance buffer (to the power amp). The Slagleformers are used for (passive) volume control. Note that this also eliminates the slight but audible 60Hz hum coming from the Saga, especially at lower volume settings.

 

Anyhow, the improved sound made me re-evaluate some tubes that I tried earlier in the Saga, and particularly the solid-state-like realism of the Sophia Electric 6SN7 now sounds great! Possibly better than any of my NOS tubes (I didn't try them all yet).. So, I must revoke my earlier opinion of the Sophia Electric 6SN7, it really is a very nice tube! The best sounding tube for the Saga may be system dependent..  

 

A friend of mine just yesterday wrote to say that the Sophias in his ModWright Oppo-105 also excelled the GEs.  Guess I need to try them.

[crenca]

4 hours ago, Abtr said:

Well, I made some changes in my system that appear to reduce (analogue) noise and significantly improve the overall dynamics and definition of the reproduced sound/music. Most notably, a Chang Lightspeed mains filter now cleans up HF mains noise and I use a pair of Dave Slagle autoformers (Slagleformers) in between the DAC's analogue output and the Saga. The Saga's volume control is set to maximum, so the Saga only functions as an impedance buffer (to the power amp). The Slagleformers are used for (passive) volume control. Note that this also eliminates the slight but audible 60Hz hum coming from the Saga, especially at lower volume settings.

 

Anyhow, the improved sound made me re-evaluate some tubes that I tried earlier in the Saga, and particularly the solid-state-like realism of the Sophia Electric 6SN7 now sounds great! Possibly better than any of my NOS tubes (I didn't try them all yet).. So, I must revoke my earlier opinion of the Sophia Electric 6SN7, it really is a very nice tube! The best sounding tube for the Saga may be system dependent..  

 

 

Thanks for the update!  Interesting, as I am back to the Sophia as well.  Now, the last 3 weeks or so I have been almost exclusively using my Saga in front of my Jotunheim/Focal Elear HP combo which is new and I settled on the Sophia.  Actually, I think it is really a wash between the Sophia and the GE GTA unlike with the Parasound/Legacy HD speaker set up where I prefer the GE just a smidgen (really, within the margin of error fur sur).

 

I have yet not noticed any 60Hz hum from my Saga, and with HP you would think I would have if it was within my hearing acuity.  Perhaps I have clean(er) power...

[Abtr]

18 hours ago, crenca said:

... I have yet not noticed any 60Hz hum from my Saga, and with HP you would think I would have if it was within my hearing acuity.  Perhaps I have clean(er) power...

 

Maybe something is wrong with my Saga.. I recently noticed that at minimum volume it produces an audible hum, even without any input device connected to it and whether or not it is connected to mains ground/earth. The hum gets less at higher volume and disappears at maximum volume setting which bypasses the volume control. Since this is a passive resistor based volume control, I'm at a loss as to what causes the 60Hz hum. It can't be a bad PS cap. And when I use the Slagleformers as a passive preamp without the Saga, then (without a source input signal) my (class D) poweramp is dead silent even at max volume..

[zackthedog]

8 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

Maybe something is wrong with my Saga.. I recently noticed that at minimum volume it produces an audible hum, even without any input device connected to it and whether or not it is connected to mains ground/earth. The hum gets less at higher volume and disappears at maximum volume setting which bypasses the volume control. Since this is a passive resistor based volume control, I'm at a loss as to what causes the 60Hz hum. It can't be a bad PS cap. And when I use the Slagleformers as a passive preamp without the Saga, then (without a source input signal) my (class D) poweramp is dead silent even at max volume..

 

Sounds like a faulty pot.  Does it occur when you remove the tube and use passive mode?

[Abtr]

5 hours ago, zackthedog said:

Sounds like a faulty pot.  Does it occur when you remove the tube and use passive mode?

 

Yes, I should have tested this. As you suggested I tried the Saga in passive mode with the Sophia removed and there was no hum. Then I inserted another tube (RCA 6SN7GTA) and again no hum in active mode. So the hum is caused by the Sophia Electric tube!

 

The Sophia I have is a selected 'class-A' tube which has been used for only ~300 hours.  What I don't understand is that the Sophia doesn't hum and actually sounds great if I bypass the Saga's (resistor based) volume control and use the autoformers (inductive) volume control.. Anyway, I'm glad the Saga is not the problem.

[Abtr]

I did some research. The Saga uses 6.3V AC heater power. The 60Hz hum may then result from excessive heater-to-cathode leakage which reportedly can be a (gradually worsening) problem with the Sophias. Yet it remains hard to see how the use of autoformers could eliminate such leakage.
 

[zackthedog]

4 hours ago, Abtr said:

I did some research. The Saga uses 6.3V AC heater power. The 60Hz hum may then result from excessive heater-to-cathode leakage which reportedly can be a (gradually worsening) problem with the Sophias. Yet it remains hard to see how the use of autoformers could eliminate such leakage.
 

 

Basically, anything attached to the input grid of the tube, including the volume pot, can act like a big antenna.  By turning the volume pot down, you're "introducing it" into the circuit.  If the tube is faulty, it can pick up RF or grounding problems and amplify them.  It may be that under other circumstances the Sophia would be okay, but it may be very sensitive to whatever sort of circuitry is precedes the grid in this particular preamp.  For instance, if they don't employ a grid-stopper resistor, that could cause this sort of behavior.

 

Bypassing the pot and using the autoformers may just have eliminated something in the volume control circuit that the Sophia is sensitive to, I couldn't say.

 

I'm not explaining this very well, but suffice to say that it seems like the Sophia is a problem in this circuit, either due to a flaw or just the way it's constructed.  

 

I'm surprised that the Saga uses AC heating for the tube.  That seems like a risky ploy in a tube preamp.  

[crenca]

26 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

Basically, anything attached to the input grid of the tube, including the volume pot, can act like a big antenna.  By turning the volume pot down, you're "introducing it" into the circuit.  If the tube is faulty, it can pick up RF or grounding problems and amplify them.  It may be that under other circumstances the Sophia would be okay, but it may be very sensitive to whatever sort of circuitry is precedes the grid in this particular preamp.  For instance, if they don't employ a grid-stopper resistor, that could cause this sort of behavior.

 

Bypassing the pot and using the autoformers may just have eliminated something in the volume control circuit that the Sophia is sensitive to, I couldn't say.

 

I'm not explaining this very well, but suffice to say that it seems like the Sophia is a problem in this circuit, either due to a flaw or just the way it's constructed.  

 

I'm surprised that the Saga uses AC heating for the tube.  That seems like a risky ploy in a tube preamp.  

 

4 hours ago, Abtr said:

I did some research. The Saga uses 6.3V AC heater power. The 60Hz hum may then result from excessive heater-to-cathode leakage which reportedly can be a (gradually worsening) problem with the Sophias. Yet it remains hard to see how the use of autoformers could eliminate such leakage.
 

 

Not exactly sure I am following or if it helps, but I searched for a hum from my Saga/Sophia by using the Saga's active mode, volume at various levels, and with my Jotuniheim turned most or all the way up (which comes after the Saga).  Could just detect a bit of a hum with the Jot turned most or all the way up, but gosh darn it it is so low in level I want to say it is at 120hz and not 60hz but this is probably wrong.  I can also detect this with hum with the Sage turned off.

 

Long story short, I am pretty sure I am hearing the Jot and not the Saga.  My Saga/Sophia (guesstimate around 300 hours of use on the Sophia) has iFi micro2 and computer upstream and lots of computer stuff (wireless routers, printers, other computers, etc.) nearby.

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

Not exactly sure I am following or if it helps, but I searched for a hum from my Saga/Sophia by using the Saga's active mode, volume at various levels, and with my Jotuniheim turned most or all the way up (which comes after the Saga).  Could just detect a bit of a hum with the Jot turned most or all the way up, but gosh darn it it is so low in level I want to say it is at 120hz and not 60hz but this is probably wrong.  I can also detect this with hum with the Sage turned off.

 

Even my (NOS) RCA and GE tubes produce a very low level hum which is indeed practically inaudible. The hum produced by the Jotunheim may be louder than the active Saga hum (which is loudest with the volume turned down). Are you using the Saga for tube sound through the Jotunheim? Which is the volume control?

 

1 hour ago, crenca said:

Long story short, I am pretty sure I am hearing the Jot and not the Saga.  My Saga/Sophia (guesstimate around 300 hours of use on the Sophia) has iFi micro2 and computer upstream and lots of computer stuff (wireless routers, printers, other computers, etc.) nearby.

 

I guess I must order another grade A Sophia to see if it doesn't hum because the tube sounds fantastic!

[Abtr]

2 hours ago, zackthedog said:

Basically, anything attached to the input grid of the tube, including the volume pot, can act like a big antenna.  By turning the volume pot down, you're "introducing it" into the circuit.  If the tube is faulty, it can pick up RF or grounding problems and amplify them.  It may be that under other circumstances the Sophia would be okay, but it may be very sensitive to whatever sort of circuitry is precedes the grid in this particular preamp.  For instance, if they don't employ a grid-stopper resistor, that could cause this sort of behavior.

 

Bypassing the pot and using the autoformers may just have eliminated something in the volume control circuit that the Sophia is sensitive to, I couldn't say.

 

I'm not explaining this very well, but suffice to say that it seems like the Sophia is a problem in this circuit, either due to a flaw or just the way it's constructed.  

 

Thanks! Should this grid-stopper-resistor be implemented in the Sophia or in the Saga?

 

2 hours ago, zackthedog said:

I'm surprised that the Saga uses AC heating for the tube.  That seems like a risky ploy in a tube preamp.  

 

That's what the specs state: http://schiit.com/products/saga

[zackthedog]

The grid-stopper should ideally be a 1/2 watt carbon-comp resistor, say 1K ohm, soldered as close to the input grid pin as possible.  Perhaps there is one already there, I don't know.  I *could* help reduce the noise issue.  Another possibility would be to raise the filament supply from ground if it is not already.  Tying it to the B+ supply might help, provided it is less than 100 volts.

 

I don't necessarily recommend modifying the unit, it's up to you. :-)  Nor do I know if either of these things would help, it may just be the tube.

[Speed Racer]

Don't necessarily recommend? Apparently Jason Stoddard doesn't know what he is doing......

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, zackthedog said:

The grid-stopper should ideally be a 1/2 watt carbon-comp resistor, say 1K ohm, soldered as close to the input grid pin as possible.  Perhaps there is one already there, I don't know.  I *could* help reduce the noise issue.  Another possibility would be to raise the filament supply from ground if it is not already.  Tying it to the B+ supply might help, provided it is less than 100 volts.

 

I don't necessarily recommend modifying the unit, it's up to you. :-)  Nor do I know if either of these things would help, it may just be the tube.

 

Thanks again. A grid-stopper resistance may, or may not have been implemented in the Saga. The fact that the Sophia doesn't hum  and actually sounds great without the Saga's volume control circuitry, implies that there may be a problem with this circuitry..
 

[zackthedog]

58 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Don't necessarily recommend? Apparently Jason Stoddard doesn't know what he is doing......

 

Well, in "passive" mode the tube hum is still a problem, so there's a shortcut in there somewhere.  I'm not saying the designer doesn't know what he's doing, but it's a $350 preamp.  No doubt it could be improved.

[crenca]

Just now, zackthedog said:

 

Well, in "passive" mode the tube hum is still a problem, so there's a shortcut in there somewhere.  I'm not saying the designer doesn't know what he's doing, but it's a $350 preamp.  No doubt it could be improved.

 

Yep, or we could just go the way of cult audiophile personality worship and deny our experience...don't think that is what Speed would want us to do...I don't think

[crenca]

3 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

Even my (NOS) RCA and GE tubes produce a very low level hum which is indeed practically inaudible. The hum produced by the Jotunheim may be louder than the active Saga hum (which is loudest with the volume turned down). Are you using the Saga for tube sound through the Jotunheim? Which is the volume control?

 

 

I have it set up this way so I can sit in my listening chair back from the desk and use the Saga's remote.  I set the volume on both so that I can back the Saga down to 3 o'clock for loudness war music, and open it up all the way (or nearly) for classical/jazz.  The Jot is set to 10 o'clock or so on high gain with Elear's (varies by HP choice however) That way I can sit in my chair with tablet (roon remote) and Saga remote and listen without getting up.

[Abtr]

23 minutes ago, crenca said:

I have it set up this way so I can sit in my listening chair back from the desk and use the Saga's remote.  I set the volume on both so that I can back the Saga down to 3 o'clock for loudness war music, and open it up all the way (or nearly) for classical/jazz.  The Jot is set to 10 o'clock or so on high gain with Elear's (varies by HP choice however) That way I can sit in my chair with tablet (roon remote) and Saga remote and listen without getting up.

 

Nice.

[Abtr]

So I ordered a new grade-A Sophia 6SN7 for the Saga and it sounds great, just like my 'old' Sophia. I don't think much break-in time is needed. Unlike my old Sophia, the new tube doesn't produce hum that is audible from the listening position. There's just a very slight hum that I think every tube produces in the Saga and which can only be heard close to the speakers. @Crenca, this hum may be too low level to be audible through headphones which obviously play much softer than speakers.

 

Apparently there is a problem with my 'old' Sophia tube that produces audible hum in combination with the Saga's relay stepped volume control, but, interestingly, not with the Slagleformer volume control (which btw is a great upgrade for the Saga! ). I will report here if the new Sophia tube develops an audible hum problem..

[Abtr]

OK, I found out that (in my system) what I previously thought to be normal tube noise/hum may be produced by the Saga itself! In active as well as in passive mode without a tube inserted, it slightly hums. This hum is most audible at maximum volume (without a source signal playing) and close to a speaker. (Funny that my apparently defective Sophia tube hums loudest at minimum, and least at maximum volume..)

 

Anyway, my system is nearly dead silent when I use (Dave Slagle) autoformers as a passive preamp (without the Saga). I must say that I don't mind the slight noise/hum from the Saga, but can anyone please confirm that the Saga actually does hum as described above, or should I contact Schiit? Thanks. 