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Schiit Saga vs Freya


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Can you provide a link to the item you bought? I want to make sure I get the same thing.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Can you provide a link to the item you bought? I want to make sure I get the same thing.

I bought these:

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/socket-saver-8-pin

You can also get them here:

https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Socket-Saver-Octal/dp/B005IYPLH0

 

Not sure if these are the best and you can get cheaper ones. Also note that the fittings of the ones I got were very tight at first. I had to widen them a bit with a small screwdriver/nail before a tube could be inserted..

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I may have a new, personal, favorite tube for the Schiit Saga. It's a 1970's GE 6SN7GTB, with a series filament wire visible at the top and green print on the glass, like this one:

 

......................... GE6SN7GTB1970TOPWIRE2.jpg

 

Great tube! :) Sounds very detailed and transparent with apparently equal or more weight than the 1960's GE 6SN7GTBs I tried..

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Well, according the manuel online at Rogue's site:

 

"Using the bias tool, slowly turn the screw on the potentiometer that is adjacent to theswitch until the bias meter reads ~ 35 miliamps (mA)."

 

Is 35 mA a 'hot' idle current setting for the 6550?

 

update: I am not trying to denigrate Rogue here - in fact I like the sound I have heard from this amp when I have demo'd it in the past and could easily see myself owning one despite the fact that I might be investing in tubes more often - I just am trying to get a grasp on what the design is really doing...

 

It's a Class AB design so your idle current is going to be pretty low. To get 100 watts out of a *pair* they're going to be running a pretty high plate voltage and your peak currents are also going to be high. But I doubt it's really a problem.

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... Great tube! :) Sounds very detailed and transparent with apparently equal or more weight than the 1960's GE 6SN7GTBs ...

Correction. Regarding the 1970's GE 6SN7GTB tube (with top series filament wire) I referred to, I must say that after my initial fascination with its level of detail and transparency, after a while (in my system) it gets a bit tiring and bass is a bit less tight/well defined as with a 1960's GE 6SN7GTB tube.

 

In general it's quite interesting to experience how electrically similar but physically (slightly) different tubes can voice a preamplifier such that it makes me wonder how e.g. their respective resulting dB SPL spectra compare. I'm planning to do some measurements. ;)

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Correction. Regarding the 1970's GE 6SN7GTB tube (with top series filament wire) I referred to, I must say that after my initial fascination with its level of detail and transparency, after a while (in my system) it gets a bit tiring and bass is a bit less tight/well defined as with a 1960's GE 6SN7GTB tube.

 

In general it's quite interesting to experience how electrically similar but physically (slightly) different tubes can voice a preamplifier such that it makes me wonder how e.g. their respective resulting dB SPL spectra compare. I'm planning to do some measurements. ;)

 

YUp, I agree. Now try the GE 6SN7GTA. ;-)

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Do you think it may sound better than a GTB? I'm expecting a GE 5692 brown base. :)

 

Probably not, but you might try one. It's got more mid-range energy, a little more "excitement". I'm not crazy about the GE 5962. Throws a big image but very flat and a bit brittle on top. Let us know what you think.

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Probably not, but you might try one. It's got more mid-range energy, a little more "excitement". I'm not crazy about the GE 5962. Throws a big image but very flat and a bit brittle on top. Let us know what you think.

So I tried a GE 6SN7GTA and I love the effortless, sophisticated sound! It may actually sound better than a GTB, especially the bass. :) I will listen to it for a couple of weeks and then switch back to GTB for comparison..

 

The GE 5692 (brown base) also arrived and it sounds more different from the GTA than from the GTB. (Currently) I prefer the GTA.

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So I tried a GE 6SN7GTA and I love the effortless, sophisticated sound! It may actually sound better than a GTB, especially the bass. :) I will listen to it for a couple of weeks and then switch back to GTB for comparison..

 

The GE 5692 (brown base) also arrived and it sounds more different from the GTA than from the GTB. (Currently) I prefer the GTA.

 

Good! Glad you like the GTA!

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Good! Glad you like the GTA!

Yes I really do like it. ;) One question. The GE 6SN7GTA has a side getter, but the tube I have also has two small deposits of getter flash material in the top, directly above the heaters (see picture):

 

GE6SN7GTA_.png

 

As said, the tube sounds great (without noise) and everything else looks fine, but does this mean it has at one time been overheated and could this have audible consequences? To compare, I've another (NOS) GTA from Viva Tubes on the way that's rated 100+% and which doesn't have these top deposits (as per the picture on their website).

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Yes I really do like it. ;) One question. The GE 6SN7GTA has a side getter, but the tube I have also has two small deposits of getter flash material in the top, directly above the heaters (see picture):

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33682[/ATTACH]

 

As said, the tube sounds great (without noise) and everything else looks fine, but does this mean it has at one time been overheated and could this have audible consequences? To compare, I've another (NOS) GTA from Viva Tubes on the way that's rated 100+% and which doesn't have these top deposits (as per the picture on their website).

 

It just means the tube has been used, not necessarily abused. :-) If it measures strong and sounds good I wouldn't worry.

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Interesting Abtr is your journey through NOS rolling. I so far have hesitated to order an GE (or any other) NOS tube yet. The seemingly hard-to-pin-down experience has me a bit weary (I am already confused as to which tube is which and how to specify exactly what one is ordering) . That, and I have so far been happy with the top to bottom sound of my Sophia Electric new production tube.

 

Now that I have more hours/cycles on it, I would say that it has not changed much. I would say that the bottom end might have extended a bit, but the top seems to be the same smooth/extended but non "harsh" I liked in the beginning.

 

I have also replaced the Emotiva a-100 with a Parasound A23, which is doing a better job gripping my (obviously somewhat difficult to drive) Legacy Studio HD's such that everything below 200hz sounds cleaner and all around more resolved. Sound stage now also has real depth instead of just width, and separation/resolution is more precise (not that the Emotiva was "bad" at these things, especially considering its price).

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Interesting Abtr is your journey through NOS rolling. I so far have hesitated to order an GE (or any other) NOS tube yet. The seemingly hard-to-pin-down experience has me a bit weary (I am already confused as to which tube is which and how to specify exactly what one is ordering) . That, and I have so far been happy with the top to bottom sound of my Sophia Electric new production tube.

 

Now that I have more hours/cycles on it, I would say that it has not changed much. I would say that the bottom end might have extended a bit, but the top seems to be the same smooth/extended but non "harsh" I liked in the beginning.

 

I have also replaced the Emotiva a-100 with a Parasound A23, which is doing a better job gripping my (obviously somewhat difficult to drive) Legacy Studio HD's such that everything below 200hz sounds cleaner and all around more resolved. Sound stage now also has real depth instead of just width, and separation/resolution is more precise (not that the Emotiva was "bad" at these things, especially considering its price).

 

I agree that tube swapping can be exhausting. I recommended the GE 6SN7s to Abtr as a money-saver and a solid choice. I have heard the Sophias but I imagine they are lovely. I think you're well set-up with those and don't see any reason to wear out your ears or your pocketbook any further. Just my .02.

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Interesting Abtr is your journey through NOS rolling. I so far have hesitated to order an GE (or any other) NOS tube yet. The seemingly hard-to-pin-down experience has me a bit weary (I am already confused as to which tube is which and how to specify exactly what one is ordering) . That, and I have so far been happy with the top to bottom sound of my Sophia Electric new production tube.

 

Now that I have more hours/cycles on it, I would say that it has not changed much. I would say that the bottom end might have extended a bit, but the top seems to be the same smooth/extended but non "harsh" I liked in the beginning.

 

I have also replaced the Emotiva a-100 with a Parasound A23, which is doing a better job gripping my (obviously somewhat difficult to drive) Legacy Studio HD's such that everything below 200hz sounds cleaner and all around more resolved. Sound stage now also has real depth instead of just width, and separation/resolution is more precise (not that the Emotiva was "bad" at these things, especially considering its price).

Well, I find tube rolling to be quite enjoyable and different tubes do make a relatively big difference in my system. I didn't try the Sophia Electric but I find the 1960s GE 6SN7 (GTA/GTB) tubes better sounding in the Saga than a Tung-sol 6SN7GTB, Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and Psvane CV181-TII; all new production tubes. And I understand that the Sophias (like the Shuguang and Psvane) are sold in different grades or classes. Did you buy a grade A tube and how can you be sure? I think (for the price) these brands should only sell grade A tubes. And it's annoying how they add to the confusion by not providing explicit markings on their tubes that indicate the grade. Their different grade tubes are practically indistinguishable.

 

Anyway, based on my experience with the Shuguang and Psvane tubes, I think the SQ difference between the Sophia and a NOS GE 6SN7GTA may be as large as or larger than the difference between your new Tung-sol and Sophia. The GE really surprised me and I really like it. If I were you I'd try it. :)

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Thanks. Something in my neighborhood or even in my home (though I tried disconnecting everything) is rather heavily leaking current/voltage into the common mains ground (basically the water/heating system's copper tubing). I'm not sure whether a power conditioner will cure that, but will look into it. I'm also considering a dedicated earth connection (pin in soil) for my audio gear..

 

Your Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker doesn't trip?

[br]

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Well, I find tube rolling to be quite enjoyable and different tubes do make a relatively big difference in my system. I didn't try the Sophia Electric but I find the 1960s GE 6SN7 (GTA/GTB) tubes better sounding in the Saga than a Tung-sol 6SN7GTB, Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and Psvane CV181-TII; all new production tubes. And I understand that the Sophias (like the Shuguang and Psvane) are sold in different grades or classes. Did you buy a grade A tube and how can you be sure? I think (for the price) these brands should only sell grade A tubes. And it's annoying how they add to the confusion by not providing explicit markings on their tubes that indicate the grade. Their different grade tubes are practically indistinguishable.

 

Anyway, based on my experience with the Shuguang and Psvane tubes, I think the SQ difference between the Sophia and a NOS GE 6SN7GTA may be as large as or larger than the difference between your new Tung-sol and Sophia. The GE really surprised me and I really like it. If I were you I'd try it. :)

 

Well gosh darn it, you convinced me (again) to try the GE 6SN7GTA/GTB (not that these are the exactly the same I think...) ;)

 

Is this one you tried/recommend:

 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/ge-6sn7gtb-1965-vintage

 

and what about that price - someone upstream said they go for $60 but this one is more than twice that (though the dealer has a good rep and does real testing/grading and that is worth something and I am willing to pay for it...up to a point).

 

The Sophia is graded, and someone at Sophia Electric marks it by hand in ink on the base (I assume they do this stateside). I went for the top level "grade A". Of course, I have no idea how they determine their grades or if it is really all that significant, though with the rep of these Chinese tubes/factories of inconsistency-hit-and-miss-quality I figured I would go for the grade A just in case...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Well gosh darn it, you convinced me (again) to try the GE 6SN7GTA/GTB (not that these are the exactly the same I think...) ;)

 

Is this one you tried/recommend:

 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/ge-6sn7gtb-1965-vintage

 

and what about that price - someone upstream said they go for $60 but this one is more than twice that (though the dealer has a good rep and does real testing/grading and that is worth something and I am willing to pay for it...up to a point).

 

The Sophia is graded, and someone at Sophia Electric marks it by hand in ink on the base (I assume they do this stateside). I went for the top level "grade A". Of course, I have no idea how they determine their grades or if it is really all that significant, though with the rep of these Chinese tubes/factories of inconsistency-hit-and-miss-quality I figured I would go for the grade A just in case...

You can get them for far less. I paid about $40 for a well graded single GE 6SN7GTB and $70 for a matched pair and €35 for a single GE 6SN7GTA, and in my system, all sound better than my new production tubes..

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You can get them for far less. I paid about $40 for a well graded single GE 6SN7GTB and $70 for a matched pair and €35 for a single GE 6SN7GTA, and in my system, all sound better than my new production tubes..

 

Well, I purchased a pair of GE 6SN7GTA from a seller on ebay for about $60. He claimed they were manufactured in the early 1950's, though I can neither confirm or deny this. The typeface on the boxes certainly look the part :) . I have had one in my system since yesterday. A bit more bass, particularly below 50hz than the Sophia. I am trying to decide if what I am hearing is simply "more", or if it is also a looser and less well defined. At this point I think it is a bit of both. A well recorded double bass sounds good, but just a bit too full and bloomy. I think the Sophia's bass might be the more accurate of the two. The mids sound pretty much the same to me, excepting a bit of coloration on certain recording/voices that the GE has. Can't seem to pin this down, except to say at this point it is just different - sometimes I prefer the Sophia and sometimes I prefer the GE. The treble is also very similar and well extended, but here I can say that I hear just a bit more sibilance sometimes out of the GE.

 

Overall, at this point I would say that the Sophia is probably the more even and "accurate" of the two tubes, but that on certain recordings the GE seems to bring out a bit of something extra that sounds nice. Given the price differential ($30 vs $100), the GE is in fact the better deal...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Well, I purchased a pair of GE 6SN7GTA from a seller on ebay for about $60. He claimed they were manufactured in the early 1950's, though I can neither confirm or deny this. The typeface on the boxes certainly look the part :) . I have had one in my system since yesterday. A bit more bass, particularly below 50hz than the Sophia. I am trying to decide if what I am hearing is simply "more", or if it is also a looser and less well defined. At this point I think it is a bit of both. A well recorded double bass sounds good, but just a bit too full and bloomy. I think the Sophia's bass might be the more accurate of the two. The mids sound pretty much the same to me, excepting a bit of coloration on certain recording/voices that the GE has. Can't seem to pin this down, except to say at this point it is just different - sometimes I prefer the Sophia and sometimes I prefer the GE. The treble is also very similar and well extended, but here I can say that I hear just a bit more sibilance sometimes out of the GE.

 

Overall, at this point I would say that the Sophia is probably the more even and "accurate" of the two tubes, but that on certain recordings the GE seems to bring out a bit of something extra that sounds nice. Given the price differential ($30 vs $100), the GE is in fact the better deal...

 

Interesting, thanks for the report! If you like the GE but feel the bass is a bit much you might try tuning some other things in the system, maybe a different interconnect or something. Upscale is certainly a reputable dealer, but his prices are high. If you're looking for guaranteed service on rare tube types, he certainly provides that.

 

I've never purchased from him, and my only complaint, if it can be that, is that he sells the Philips 5R4 rectifier as a *direct* substitute for a 5AR4. This is utterly baffling to me. Apart from the sharing the same filament voltage and current, these are completely different rectifier tubes and should never be viewed as direct substitutes for each other. I built a pair of monoblocks for a friend, and the power supply and circuit are designed for a 5AR4. He recently asked if he could use this Philips 5R4 sold by Upscale, and I told him under no circumstances would that rectifier work in the amps.

 

I'm truly puzzled by a reputable dealer recommending a 5R4 as a substitute for a 5AR4.

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Well, I purchased a pair of GE 6SN7GTA from a seller on ebay for about $60. He claimed they were manufactured in the early 1950's, though I can neither confirm or deny this. The typeface on the boxes certainly look the part :) . I have had one in my system since yesterday. A bit more bass, particularly below 50hz than the Sophia. I am trying to decide if what I am hearing is simply "more", or if it is also a looser and less well defined. At this point I think it is a bit of both. A well recorded double bass sounds good, but just a bit too full and bloomy. I think the Sophia's bass might be the more accurate of the two. The mids sound pretty much the same to me, excepting a bit of coloration on certain recording/voices that the GE has. Can't seem to pin this down, except to say at this point it is just different - sometimes I prefer the Sophia and sometimes I prefer the GE. The treble is also very similar and well extended, but here I can say that I hear just a bit more sibilance sometimes out of the GE.

 

Overall, at this point I would say that the Sophia is probably the more even and "accurate" of the two tubes, but that on certain recordings the GE seems to bring out a bit of something extra that sounds nice. Given the price differential ($30 vs $100), the GE is in fact the better deal...

Thanks! The Sophia might be more accurate than the GE. To find out, I guess I must buy a Grade A Sophia 6SN7. :)

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I stumbled on this while researching the Saga-Freya. I have a vintage, solid state integrated amp (Sansui AU-919). Why doesnt it make sense?

I've used tubed headphone amps as "pre" into my amp and its a good way to get a tube buffer into the solid state; it sounds really good, particularly with digital music. If I had the Saga/Freya I could "tube" my digital music and run my turntable into whichever I choose. But the biggest reason I'm considering...I dont have a remote at any point in my chain and having one would be great especially when listening to headphones through my amp (which is better than any dedicated headphone amp I've yet to hear). Bascially my setup is more standard "hifi" than computer based so it makes all the sense in the world to me.

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I stumbled on this while researching the Saga-Freya. I have a vintage, solid state integrated amp (Sansui AU-919). Why doesnt it make sense?

I've used tubed headphone amps as "pre" into my amp and its a good way to get a tube buffer into the solid state; it sounds really good, particularly with digital music. If I had the Saga/Freya I could "tube" my digital music and run my turntable into whichever I choose. But the biggest reason I'm considering...I dont have a remote at any point in my chain and having one would be great especially when listening to headphones through my amp (which is better than any dedicated headphone amp I've yet to hear). Bascially my setup is more standard "hifi" than computer based so it makes all the sense in the world to me.

I assume you are referring to my earlier remark about Crenca's Saga feeding his integrated amp (which, btw, he substituted with a Parasound A23 dedicated power amp). Apart from the advantages you mention of extra connectivity and a tube buffer, the point is that feeding the output of the Saga/Freya preamp into a second (integrated) preamp before the power amp, will deteriorate the Saga/Freya's output signal with an unnecessary (solid state) gain stage and buffer stage, even if you turn the integrated amp's volume to maximum and use the Saga/Freya to control the volume.

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I assume you are referring to my earlier remark about Crenca's Saga feeding his integrated amp (which, btw, he substituted with a Parasound A23 dedicated power amp). Apart from the advantages you mention of extra connectivity and a tube buffer, the point is that feeding the output of the Saga/Freya preamp into a second (integrated) preamp before the power amp, will deteriorate the Saga/Freya's output signal with an unnecessary (solid state) gain stage and buffer stage, even if you turn the integrated amp's volume to maximum and use the Saga/Freya to control the volume.

 

Yeah, makes sense way more sense to control a power amp. I wasnt challenging, just genuinely curious. My amp can also "Jump" the tone control circuit so I guess that essentially allows it to act as a power amp?

And this is all probably way more exception than rule, especially in modern stuff...

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