Schiit Saga vs Freya

[Abtr]

Two tuby newby questons:

 

1) Is the Psvane your referring to the same product as a "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z"?

 

2) #1 (rather the same or two different products) is a different product altogether than a "Sophia Electric 6SN7" correct?

Well, I'm a tube newbie myself. Anyway, the Psvane is not the exact same tube as the Shuguang, the Psvane may be seen as the most recent version of this type of 6SN7 valve. It also seems that Psvane is a kind of sub-division of Shunguang or vice versa.. The Sophia Electric may be yet another version of the same tube, I don't know..

 

I received my Saga yesterday and with the factory tube my first impressions fall into these sorts of thoughts:

 

"who stole my subwoofer?"

"what happened to my tweeters?"

"why do most recordings sound metallic, brassy, distant, etc.?"

"why do some (but not all) voices sound a hair more "natural", and why do brass instruments (trumpet, etc.) also seem to benefit sometimes from this metallic coloration?"

 

I am sure none of this surprises you guys...

Are you sure you are listening to the Saga in *active* mode? Depending on your power amp and/or sub, the Saga's passive mode may sound a bit lifeless. In active mode (indicated by the most right LED) I think the Saga sounds already very good with a (standard) Sovtek tube, maybe you must give it some more time.. In my system I prefer the Schiit Saga over a number of other good preamps..

[crenca]

Are you sure you are listening to the Saga in *active* mode? Depending on your power amp and/or sub, the Saga's passive mode may sound a bit lifeless. In active mode (indicated by the most right LED) I think the Saga sounds already very good with a (standard) Sovtek tube, maybe you must give it some more time.. In my system I prefer the Schiit Saga over a number of other good preamps..

 

Yes - I am mostly running it using the tube (active). Actually, in either mode (active or passive) the low and high's are rolled off compared to when I run my DAC directly into my (integrated) amp - I am hoping it is a break in thing...

[Abtr]

Yes - I am mostly running it using the tube (active). Actually, in either mode (active or passive) the low and high's are rolled off compared to when I run my DAC directly into my (integrated) amp - I am hoping it is a break in thing...

What DAC do you use? And frequency roll off you can measure?

[Abtr]

... Actually, in either mode (active or passive) the low and high's are rolled off compared to when I run my DAC directly into my (integrated) amp - I am hoping it is a break in thing...

Are you running the Saga into an integrated amp? That makes no sense. What integrated amp?

[gmgraves]

Yes, you are right, it was a bit harsh. My bad, but it is largely true. It is also early days on those tubes. Reliability and longevity are two of the areas where old tubes excelled over the modern variations. To my knowledge, some of the old metallurgy and chemistry was lost, and the modern ones just don't have the same magic.

 

My experiences (and thus, my opinion) tell me that Chinese tubes are particularly junk. It's not that they sound bad, but their build quality ranges from mediocre to unbelievably bad. For instance, how about tubes with phenolic-bases (such as octal and 5-pin (2 fat pins, 3 skinny ones) that have the glass envelopes literally come out of their phenolic bases (and break wires) when one tries to remove the tube from it's socket! Or, with tubes have a plate cap, having the tube cap come off when one tries to remove the plate lead. The cap comes off stuck inside the plate lead connector so that it has to be dug out with a knife blade, leaving only a short stub of useless wire sticking through the glass on top of the tube! I've seen the bases separate on Chinese octal-based tubes such as 6SN7s, and both the bases and plate caps come off on 807s (an 30 MHz spec'd 6L6 used throughout the 2nd WW, and up into the 1950's for military transmitters and more recently used as an audio output tube).

 

 

[Abtr]

My experiences (and thus, my opinion) tell me that Chinese tubes are particularly junk. It's not that they sound bad, but their build quality ranges from mediocre to unbelievably bad. For instance, how about tubes with phenolic-bases (such as octal and 5-pin (2 fat pins, 3 skinny ones) that have the glass envelopes literally come out of their phenolic bases (and break wires) when one tries to remove the tube from it's socket! Or, with tubes have a plate cap, having the tube cap come off when one tries to remove the plate lead. The cap comes off stuck inside the plate lead connector so that it has to be dug out with a knife blade, leaving only a short stub of useless wire sticking through the glass on top of the tube! I've seen the bases separate on Chinese octal-based tubes such as 6SN7s, and both the bases and plate caps come off on 807s (an 30 MHz spec'd 6L6 used throughout the 2nd WW, and up into the 1950's for military transmitters and more recently used as an audio output tube).

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33033[/ATTACH]

Well, I can assure you that the base of the Psvane CV181-T mkII is firmly attached to the valve.

[4est]

Well, I can assure you that the base of the Psvane CV181-T mkII is firmly attached to the valve.

 

Regardless, one should never pull a tube out by its glass. You should grab it by the base. The Schiit may make that difficult, but one should still try. I've seen NOS tubes separate as well. Especially an output tube such as the aforementioned 807, which is a nice tube btw! I listened to some old Altec theater amps that had them.

[4est]

My experiences (and thus, my opinion) tell me that Chinese tubes are particularly junk. It's not that they sound bad, but their build quality ranges from mediocre to unbelievably bad. For instance, how about tubes with phenolic-bases (such as octal and 5-pin (2 fat pins, 3 skinny ones) that have the glass envelopes literally come out of their phenolic bases (and break wires) when one tries to remove the tube from it's socket! Or, with tubes have a plate cap, having the tube cap come off when one tries to remove the plate lead. The cap comes off stuck inside the plate lead connector so that it has to be dug out with a knife blade, leaving only a short stub of useless wire sticking through the glass on top of the tube! I've seen the bases separate on Chinese octal-based tubes such as 6SN7s, and both the bases and plate caps come off on 807s (an 30 MHz spec'd 6L6 used throughout the 2nd WW, and up into the 1950's for military transmitters and more recently used as an audio output tube).

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33033[/ATTACH]

 

You are correct, the Chinese tubes are primary culprit, but many of the Russian tubes still do not have "it".

[crenca]

Are you running the Saga into an integrated amp? That makes no sense. What integrated amp?

 

What...I thought everybody does that...

 

Seriously, the Saga is part of an upgrade to my "computer speaker" setup that I actually listen to more than anything else because I work so much on the computer:

 

(Jriver or Roon) > Ifi iDSD > Emotiva a-100 (a cheap Brio clone) > Legacy Audio Studio HD's & REL sub

 

My plan (such as it is - I spend most of my time thinking about world domination ) is to upgrade the amp and so I purchased this Saga and I will pair it up with some similar budget-but-hi-fi amp like perhaps Schiit's soon to be sold class A/B 100/200 watt (can't remember the name) or perhaps a Parasound A23, etc.

 

So right now the Saga is in between the iFi and the Emotiva - it is the only thing new/changed (that, and an additional short run of Blue Jeans "LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable"). Well, I have the volume control on the a-100 (which I assume is cheap potentiometer commensurate with the rest of the unit) turned all the way up - which I believe (correct me if I am wrong) gets it out of the way (if not out of the circuit).

[crenca]

My experiences (and thus, my opinion) tell me that Chinese tubes are particularly junk.

 

I can't wait till they build my car

 

Seriously, why are not the Germans making tubes?

[Abtr]

What...I thought everybody does that...

 

Seriously, the Saga is part of an upgrade to my "computer speaker" setup that I actually listen to more than anything else because I work so much on the computer:

 

(Jriver or Roon) > Ifi iDSD > Emotiva a-100 (a cheap Brio clone) > Legacy Audio Studio HD's & REL sub

 

My plan (such as it is - I spend most of my time thinking about world domination ) is to upgrade the amp and so I purchased this Saga and I will pair it up with some similar budget-but-hi-fi amp like perhaps Schiit's soon to be sold class A/B 100/200 watt (can't remember the name) or perhaps a Parasound A23, etc.

 

So right now the Saga is in between the iFi and the Emotiva - it is the only thing new/changed (that, and an additional short run of Blue Jeans "LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable"). Well, I have the volume control on the a-100 (which I assume is cheap potentiometer commensurate with the rest of the unit) turned all the way up - which I believe (correct me if I am wrong) gets it out of the way (if not out of the circuit).

I haven't a clue as to what might be going wrong here. What's the input impedance of the Emotiva a-100?

[crenca]

I haven't a clue as to what might be going wrong here. What's the input impedance of the Emotiva a-100?

 

Only thing the manual says is:

 

"Input sensitivity (for full output): 600 mV (8 ohm load)"

 

Saga's specs read:

 

"Output Impedance: 180 ohms"

 

I can't find the impedance (RCA out) listed for the Ifi iDSD...

 

So a mismatch you think?

[Abtr]

Only thing the manual says is:

 

"Input sensitivity (for full output): 600 mV (8 ohm load)"

 

Saga's specs read:

 

"Output Impedance: 180 ohms"

 

I can't find the impedance (RCA out) listed for the Ifi iDSD...

 

So a mismatch you think?

Not very likely, unless the input impedance of the Emotiva is below 2k Ohm. Maybe you created a ground loop somehow..

[crenca]

Not very likely, unless the input impedance of the Emotiva is below 2k Ohm. Maybe you created a ground loop somehow..

 

Ok, just in the past 30 minutes my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (these are "new stock" - recently manufactured unless I am mistaken) was delivered via Fed-Ex. I ordered these from Upscale Audio, and according to the side of the box they have done some measurements ("T1" & "T2" - no idea what they mean) and graded them (these are "A") and they checked the box "burn in" so I assume they have some time on them.

 

In any case, my subwoofer and tweeters have been returned (I am going to catch the SOB who "borrowed" them ) and a much more neutral (can't hear any metal harshness/veil) presentation is coming from my speakers.

 

UPDATE: oh boy - listening to Kurt Ellings "Bonita Cuba" (24/96) and I am resisting turning it up to rock concert level's...perhaps I am hearing tube magic...nice

 

Much much better...

[Abtr]

Ok, just in the past 30 minutes my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (these are "new stock" - recently manufactured unless I am mistaken) was delivered via Fed-Ex. I ordered these from Upscale Audio, and according to the side of the box they have done some measurements ("T1" & "T2" - no idea what they mean) and graded them (these are "A") and they checked the box "burn in" so I assume they have some time on them.

 

In any case, my subwoofer and tweeters have been returned (I am going to catch the SOB who "borrowed" them ) and a much more neutral (can't hear any metal harshness/veil) presentation is coming from my speakers.

 

UPDATE: oh boy - listening to Kurt Ellings "Bonita Cuba" (24/96) and I am resisting turning it up to rock concert level's...perhaps I am hearing tube magic...nice

 

Much much better...

Yes, I also found the new Tung-sol sounding better than the factory NOS Sovtek tube. And the 6SN7 is a double triode tube. I guess T1 stands for the first triode and T2 for the second. In the Saga the 6SN7 isn't used for amplification/gain so the two triodes being precisely 'matched' is not that important. Anyway, good to hear your problem is solved.

[gmgraves]

I can't wait till they build my car

 

Seriously, why are not the Germans making tubes?

Don't know about now, but Telefunken made tubes up to fairly recently and Phillips made tubes in their factory in Stutggart and there was another German brand that people used to call "Bugle" because each tube had a picture of a miniature tube with a face on it and arms and the tube was blowing a bugle. I used to know the brand name of those tubes, but I don't remember it any more. But these days, who knows who builds what or even where!?

[crenca]

Yes, I also found the new Tung-sol sounding better than the factory NOS Sovtek tube. And the 6SN7 is a double triode tube. I guess T1 stands for the first triode and T2 for the second. In the Saga the 6SN7 isn't used for amplification/gain so the two triodes being precisely 'matched' is not that important. Anyway, good to hear your problem is solved.

 

My working theory now is that the factory Sovtek tube I have is a particularly bad sample. Schiit would probably do themselves some favors by doing a minimum test of some sort just from a return point of view OR perhaps the customer base for tubes is experienced enough to know these sorts of things...

[clipper]

Don't know about now, but Telefunken made tubes up to fairly recently and Phillips made tubes in their factory in Stutggart and there was another German brand that people used to call "Bugle" because each tube had a picture of a miniature tube with a face on it and arms and the tube was blowing a bugle. I used to know the brand name of those tubes, but I don't remember it any more. But these days, who knows who builds what or even where!?

 

Amperex - Bugle Boy. Holland. Great logo!

 

This could be dangerous (to the pocketbook), but if anyone wants to know what's generally regarded as the "holy grail" of 6SN7 tubes, it's Tung Sol Round Plates. Like these: Tung Sol Round Plates. I use the 12 volt version (12SN7) of Tung Sol Round Plates (with different equipment), and they're the best I've heard.

[elcorso]

Chinese Psvane "replicas" I own are very well constructed and sounding very good, very reliable (some of them bought 4 years ago).

 

101D Replica, 300B Replica, EL34 Replica, between others. And they cost high money, of course.

 

"Everything China" is bad quality? Very wrong, but if you want the best quality you have to pay.

 

I have a relative who imports from China a lot of things, he told me you can choose from 5 quality levels.

 

Of course I also have some NOS tubes in stock, where the honest sellers are very few, they are a lot of fake or in very bad condition. You have to be very cautious on eBay...!

 

Regarding tube manipulation, you have to treat them like a lady, but they are not as weak as some believe (the same with the ladies)

 

Roch

[Blake]

if anyone wants to know what's generally regarded as the "holy grail" of 6SN7 tubes, it's Tung Sol Round Plates.

 

Yes, Tung Sol 6SN7GT, VT-231 Black Glass Round Plates or "BGRP" for short, from the 1940's. That's what I use. End game for this variety.

[zackthedog]

Yes, I also found the new Tung-sol sounding better than the factory NOS Sovtek tube. And the 6SN7 is a double triode tube. I guess T1 stands for the first triode and T2 for the second. In the Saga the 6SN7 isn't used for amplification/gain so the two triodes being precisely 'matched' is not that important. Anyway, good to hear your problem is solved.

 

Well, er, I wouldn't say that. ;-) If you want the output impedance of both channels to match precisely, I think matched sections would matter.

[gmgraves]

Amperex - Bugle Boy. Holland. Great logo!

 

YES! That's correct. I had forgotten. and again, you are correct that It's the Netherlands, not Germany. It wouldn't surprise me if the only tube manufacturer left in Europe proper (if you leave out Ukrane and Russia), is ElectroHarmonix from the Czeque Republic. I tried their 6DJ8s in my AR SP11 and found them to be microphonic, and replaced them with Svetlanas which were much better. I don't know what their reputation is, really.

[gmgraves]

Only thing the manual says is:

 

"Input sensitivity (for full output): 600 mV (8 ohm load)"

 

Saga's specs read:

 

"Output Impedance: 180 ohms"

 

I can't find the impedance (RCA out) listed for the Ifi iDSD...

 

So a mismatch you think?

 

Definately NOT! Most (if not all) unbalanced line-level inputs on home audio gear is at least 10k Ohms and better. So 180 Ohms into 10k is definitely OK.

[Abtr]

Well, er, I wouldn't say that. ;-) If you want the output impedance of both channels to match precisely, I think matched sections would matter.

Hi Zackthedog. As you know, the electrical characteristics of a vacuum tube are commonly described by three variables: voltage gain (Mu), transconductance (Gm) and plate resistance (Rp). In the case of triodes these are related: Mu = Gm x Rp. Mu and Rp are most important, where Rp directly affects output impedance. However, I understand that Mu and Rp are very difficult to measure and most/all vendors measure only Gm. With two triodes matched only for Gm (Mu/Rp), there is no assurance whatsoever that Mu and Rp will match. It seems to me this practice of matching tubes (triodes) is questionable and largely a marketing ploy..

[4est]

Chinese Psvane "replicas" I own are very well constructed and sounding very good, very reliable (some of them bought 4 years ago).

 

101D Replica, 300B Replica, EL34 Replica, between others. And they cost high money, of course.

 

"Everything China" is bad quality? Very wrong, but if you want the best quality you have to pay.

 

I have a relative who imports from China a lot of things, he told me you can choose from 5 quality levels.

 

Of course I also have some NOS tubes in stock, where the honest sellers are very few, they are a lot of fake or in very bad condition. You have to be very cautious on eBay...!

 

Regarding tube manipulation, you have to treat them like a lady, but they are not as weak as some believe (the same with the ladies)

 

Roch

 

This makes complete sense to me. Much of what Americans bitch about in Far East goods is only because Americans so often buy on price, and the our local suppliers only order the cheap shit. Even so, I doubt anyone is making tubes today as well as they did when the world relied on them.