Schiit Saga vs Freya

[Abtr]

I'm not that crazy about the Treasure/Psvane 6SN7. It's a nice tube, and it certainly depends on your system. A lot of people love them. They do have a big, open sound, similar to the Mullard ECC32. I guess I should try mine again. :-) But the quality control is so-so and they can be noisy and microphonic, the last thing you want in a preamp. I find that the GE 6SN7GTBs do everything very well for a reasonable price. Production was very consistent, they'll tolerate high voltages, microphonics are extremely low and they're generally tough as nails. NOS or very strong matched pairs go for $60 or less.

Hi Zackthedog. Do you mean the early 1960s GE 6SN7GTB: GE 6SN7GTB - matched pair? What about this one: GE 6SN7GTb: Vacuum Tubes & NOS Tubes | Tubes Unlimited? And are you familiar with the GE 6SN7WGTA (1968-1970): 6SN7WGTA General Electric - Tubes: Odd Ball Tubeampdoctor Store? Thanks.

[zackthedog]

Hi Zackthedog. Do you mean the early 1960s GE 6SN7GTB: GE 6SN7GTB - matched pair? What about this one: GE 6SN7GTb: Vacuum Tubes & NOS Tubes | Tubes Unlimited? And are you familiar with the GE 6SN7WGTA (1968-1970): 6SN7WGTA General Electric - Tubes: Odd Ball Tubeampdoctor Store? Thanks.

 

I mean the first pair, yes. Better to avoid the later, wafer-base version, though they would probably be okay in a pinch. The 6SN7GTA is a different animal. They look exactly the same but believe it or not they sound a bit different, with a more prominent midrange and little less open on the high end. They also have a lower maximum voltage rating. That's a nice mil-spec model there, never seen those. But apart from the brown base I doubt it's very different from the stock versions, and I wouldn't pay that sort of premium for them.

[Abtr]

I mean the first pair, yes. Better to avoid the later, wafer-base version, though they would probably be okay in a pinch. The 6SN7GTA is a different animal. They look exactly the same but believe it or not they sound a bit different, with a more prominent midrange and little less open on the high end. They also have a lower maximum voltage rating. That's a nice mil-spec model there, never seen those. But apart from the brown base I doubt it's very different from the stock versions, and I wouldn't pay that sort of premium for them.

Thanks! I ordered an early 1960s G.E. 6SN7GTB for the Saga. Should be here this week.

[zackthedog]

Thanks! I ordered an early 1960s G.E. 6SN7GTB for the Saga. Should be here this week.

I hope you like it. :-) Let us know what you think.

[Abtr]

I hope you like it. :-) Let us know what you think.

I promise I will do that.

[xyrium]

I've always found that puzzling. You would think that all tubes with the same part number would sound alike. After all, the tube's static characteristics, transconductance and bias curves are very narrowly proscribed and all the characteristic curves look the same in the tube manuals, but I know from experience that they all do not sound the same. SNIP 8<-------------------------

 

I'm fairly certain that the tolerances on tubes is rather loosely "defined" if anything when you're pricing factory stuff. That's why tube retailers sell matched pairs (triodes, and gain from what I've experienced) for a marginal premium. The same can apply for preamp tubes such as the 6SN7. It's these minor (sometimes significant) differences that can scertainly change the sonic characteristics of a sensitive circuit IMO.

[gmgraves]

I'm fairly certain that the tolerances on tubes is rather loosely "defined" if anything when you're pricing factory stuff. That's why tube retailers sell matched pairs (triodes, and gain from what I've experienced) for a marginal premium. The same can apply for preamp tubes such as the 6SN7. It's these minor (sometimes significant) differences that can scertainly change the sonic characteristics of a sensitive circuit IMO.

I'm reasonably sure that "matched pairs" of tubes are not matched sonically, but rather electrically and mostly in output tubes. The reason is so that in a push-pull output arrangement in amps that are "self-biasing" the tubes will both conduct evenly and share the load 50%-50%. Matched pairs aren't necessary, of course with amps having adjustable bias, where a meter across the tube can be used to set the biases equally via a potentiometer.

[shoom]

Does the SAGA use a Hybrid tube stage with transistor acting as a CCS? I think that I read that somewhere.

My first Schiit.

I’ve had my SAGA for a few weeks now and really like the sound. IMHO Schiit have directed some of the budget to the things that can really matter. Such as the nice relay switched Volume control. Good move for channel balance at low values. I’ve used DACT/Goldpoint switcher in some of my DIY builds and they both do clarity very well as does the SAGA. They have even managed to throw in a remote control which won’t set the world alight looks wise but it works well.

To my ears the SAGA is a good ‘’modern’’ sounding pre which avoids the sometimes ''soft''over ripe ‘’vintage’’ sound in favor of clarity/space and depth. No pipe and slippers needed with this PRE.

To my ears the standard tubes are errr OK but a little noisy but the RCA 6sn7GTB black base sound a little larger presentation wise and run dead quiet.

I have some Tung Sol Russians on order just to hear what the Freya rave tubes sound likeJ.

I almost built a DIY tube buffer pre a few months ago but having seen the lowdown on the SAGA I thought that I’d just kick back and let someone else do the work. Nice

A nice modern sounding Pre at a crazy low price.

Good work Schiit.

 

[Abtr]

Does the SAGA use a Hybrid tube stage with transistor acting as a CCS? I think that I read that somewhere. ...

Yes. I think that's implied here: Saga ..

[xyrium]

I'm reasonably sure that "matched pairs" of tubes are not matched sonically, but rather electrically and mostly in output tubes. The reason is so that in a push-pull output arrangement in amps that are "self-biasing" the tubes will both conduct evenly and share the load 50%-50%. Matched pairs aren't necessary, of course with amps having adjustable bias, where a meter across the tube can be used to set the biases equally via a potentiometer.

 

I certainly agree that matched pairs are indeed intended to be as close to each other electrically than anything else. However, I'm of the camp that believes that the electrical differences are the audible ones when it comes to anything other than speakers. While you can match potential plate currents in matched pairs as their resistance would be similar, you can also match their potential for gain (capacitance?). Thus, get them electrically close and you would be audibly matched. Again, just my opinion, as psychoacoustics are largely at play in this industry.

 

To me, this explains why tubes from the same manufacturer (especially if you buy direct, and not from someone like TAD, Ruby, etc.) will vary slightly in sound, and thus, electrical values, even within the same batch of the same model. The rest, well, I don't hear anything beyond 12kHz at my age probably, so it doesn't matter.

[4est]

I certainly agree that matched pairs are indeed intended to be as close to each other electrically than anything else. However, I'm of the camp that believes that the electrical differences are the audible ones when it comes to anything other than speakers. While you can match potential plate currents in matched pairs as their resistance would be similar, you can also match their potential for gain (capacitance?). Thus, get them electrically close and you would be audibly matched. Again, just my opinion, as psychoacoustics are largely at play in this industry.

 

To me, this explains why tubes from the same manufacturer (especially if you buy direct, and not from someone like TAD, Ruby, etc.) will vary slightly in sound, and thus, electrical values, even within the same batch of the same model. The rest, well, I don't hear anything beyond 12kHz at my age probably, so it doesn't matter.

 

If a NOS tube has a different number/letter post script, there is likely a difference- mica thickness, grid spacing or wire diameter, cathode composition, plate structuring ect. Back then tubes were responsible for mission critical duties, and were taken very seriously by the manufactures. There was fierce competition and a of of ad copy extolling their virtues vs the competition. Put another way, in the era where tubes ruled and were made better, they thought there were differences.

 

As to matching small signal tubes, it depends upon their use. Those 6sn7 variants are dual triodes, and the gain ©should be matched on the halves if used as a gain stage. For a buffer, it is of little concern. None of that is taking into account the variation in noise, and one of the more common issues, microphonics.

 

I could go on and on about this, but the simple fact is that NOS tubes are sought after because they sound better due to workmanship, chemistry and the rigorous selection processes they used back then and not today. Most modern tubes are junk- period.

[firedog]

I'm not that crazy about the Treasure/Psvane 6SN7. It's a nice tube, and it certainly depends on your system. A lot of people love them. They do have a big, open sound, similar to the Mullard ECC32. I guess I should try mine again. :-) But the quality control is so-so and they can be noisy and microphonic, the last thing you want in a preamp. I find that the GE 6SN7GTBs do everything very well for a reasonable price. Production was very consistent, they'll tolerate high voltages, microphonics are extremely low and they're generally tough as nails. NOS or very strong matched pairs go for $60 or less.

 

Saw these online- what does "full base" mean? Still fit Freya?

[Blake]

Most modern tubes are junk- period.

 

Yep.

[zackthedog]

Saw these online- what does "full base" mean? Still fit Freya?

 

I'm not sure which tube you're talking about, but the Treasure/Psvane 6SN7s tend to have a larger base than NOS tubes. I see that the Freya has its tube sockets recessed below the cover, and the tube base must fit into the hole in the cover. This could be a problem with the Treasure/Psvane tubes, but I couldn't say for sure. I would ask the folks at Schiit for their advice before you buy any. Any NOS or standard new-manufacture 6SN7 should fit, since the bases conform to standard specs.

 

"Full-base" means the tubes have the standard base that wraps around the bottom of the glass envelope. "Wafer-base" or "Coin-base" means that the full base has been eliminated and replaced with a thin phenolic wafer that holds the pins and seals the bottom of the glass envelope. This was done in the late days of vacuum tubes to save money, I assume. Is that what you were asking?

[gmgraves]

I certainly agree that matched pairs are indeed intended to be as close to each other electrically than anything else. However, I'm of the camp that believes that the electrical differences are the audible ones when it comes to anything other than speakers. While you can match potential plate currents in matched pairs as their resistance would be similar, you can also match their potential for gain (capacitance?). Thus, get them electrically close and you would be audibly matched. Again, just my opinion, as psychoacoustics are largely at play in this industry.

 

I don't doubt for a minute that differences in the same tube type from manufacturer to manufacturer and run to run will result in slightly different sound. And amps that have no provision for bias adjustment will sound better with matched pairs. My only point was that they are not matched for sound quality (which would be difficult to do anyway, because then you'd be relying on someone else's idea of what sounds best) only for electrical similarity.

To me, this explains why tubes from the same manufacturer (especially if you buy direct, and not from someone like TAD, Ruby, etc.) will vary slightly in sound, and thus, electrical values, even within the same batch of the same model. The rest, well, I don't hear anything beyond 12kHz at my age probably, so it doesn't matter.

 

I think you'd be surprised at how much it does matter.

[shoom]

''Most modern tubes are junk- period''.

 

 

 

Hey that seems a little harshJ

I’ve been running RCA in my SAGA for a few weeks now but the Tung Sol popped through the letter box this morning and curiosity got the better of me.

A bit of a nice surprise really.

After a few hours cooking.

Firstly I’d say that to my ears and in my set up these sound quite a bit better than the stock tubes and in comparison to the RCA are richer and rounder. They also have a slightly different sound shape compared to the wide and high RCA they are just a tad slimmer and less tall. But they do seem to have a deeper presentation with more of the tube mid’s which puts more meat on the bone of vocals for example. Nicely deep in the bass also. The top seems to have just a little less sparkle than the RCA but that may change as these tube really warm up.

Big, beefy, and very fruity so far without losing detail.

Not bad for a current production tube and the Russians can make them BTW. I’ve had some very nice 6n1p/6n6p in the past.

I’m liking the Tung Sol ATM.

It’s great fun.

 

[Abtr]

... the Treasure/Psvane 6SN7s tend to have a larger base than NOS tubes. I see that the Freya has its tube sockets recessed below the cover, and the tube base must fit into the hole in the cover. This could be a problem with the Treasure/Psvane tubes, but I couldn't say for sure. ...

The Psvane CV181-T mkII/6SN7 does fit in the Saga (just). The glass bottle almost touches the cover.

[zackthedog]

The Psvane CV181-T mkII/6SN7 does fit in the Saga (just). The glass bottle almost touches the cover.

 

That's good to know, thank you.

[4est]

''Most modern tubes are junk- period''.

 

 

 

Hey that seems a little harshJ

I’ve been running RCA in my SAGA for a few weeks now but the Tung Sol popped through the letter box this morning and curiosity got the better of me.

A bit of a nice surprise really.

After a few hours cooking.

Firstly I’d say that to my ears and in my set up these sound quite a bit better than the stock tubes and in comparison to the RCA are richer and rounder. They also have a slightly different sound shape compared to the wide and high RCA they are just a tad slimmer and less tall. But they do seem to have a deeper presentation with more of the tube mid’s which puts more meat on the bone of vocals for example. Nicely deep in the bass also. The top seems to have just a little less sparkle than the RCA but that may change as these tube really warm up.

Big, beefy, and very fruity so far without losing detail.

Not bad for a current production tube and the Russians can make them BTW. I’ve had some very nice 6n1p/6n6p in the past.

I’m liking the Tung Sol ATM.

It’s great fun.

 

 

Yes, you are right, it was a bit harsh. My bad, but it is largely true. It is also early days on those tubes. Reliability and longevity are two of the areas where old tubes excelled over the modern variations. To my knowledge, some of the old metallurgy and chemistry was lost, and the modern ones just don't have the same magic.

[Abtr]

The Psvane CV181-T mkII/6SN7 does fit in the Saga (just). The glass bottle almost touches the cover.

That's good to know, thank you.

Oh, and the new Psvane has a very pleasant sound; well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical. Bass, highs, texture and details are great. The Tung-sol 6SN7GTB (new/reissue) is also quite open sounding but sounds relatively harsh. I think the Psvane is in a different league soundwise..

[shoom]

The Psvane CV181-T mkII/6SN7 does fit in the Saga (just). The glass bottle almost touches the cover.

 

Someone suggested using a pin saver to elevate the tube. I wonder how that works SQ wise.

 

If you try

 

Let me know.

 

I've read some mixed opinions on the Psvane but still interesting enough to try.

 

Next on the list.

[zackthedog]

Oh, and the new Psvane has a very pleasant sound; well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical. Bass, highs, texture and details are great. The Tung-sol 6SN7GTB (new/reissue) is also quite open sounding but sounds relatively harsh. I think the Psvane is in a different league soundwise..

 

Yes, they can be quite nice depending on your system. The only other new-issue 6SN7 I have is the Electro-Harmonics, which is quite coarse-sounding by comparison.

[Abtr]

Yes, they can be quite nice depending on your system. ...

Well, the system basically is the Schiit Saga.

[crenca]

Oh, and the new Psvane has a very pleasant sound; well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical. Bass, highs, texture and details are great. The Tung-sol 6SN7GTB (new/reissue) is also quite open sounding but sounds relatively harsh. I think the Psvane is in a different league soundwise..

 

Two tuby newby questons:

 

1) Is the Psvane your referring to the same product as a "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z"?

 

2) #1 (rather the same or two different products) is a different product altogether than a "Sophia Electric 6SN7" correct?

 

I received my Saga yesterday and with the factory tube my first impressions fall into these sorts of thoughts:

 

"who stole my subwoofer?"

"what happened to my tweeters?"

"why do most recordings sound metallic, brassy, distant, etc.?"

"why do some (but not all) voices sound a hair more "natural", and why do brass instruments (trumpet, etc.) also seem to benefit sometimes from this metallic coloration?"

 

I am sure none of this surprises you guys...

[zackthedog]

Two tuby newby questons:

 

1) Is the Psvane your referring to the same product as a "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z"?

 

2) #1 (rather the same or two different products) is a different product altogether than a "Sophia Electric 6SN7" correct?

 

I received my Saga yesterday and with the factory tube my first impressions fall into these sorts of thoughts:

 

"who stole my subwoofer?"

"what happened to my tweeters?"

"why do most recordings sound metallic, brassy, distant, etc.?"

"why do some (but not all) voices sound a hair more "natural", and why do brass instruments (trumpet, etc.) also seem to benefit sometimes from this metallic coloration?"

 

I am sure none of this surprises you guys...

 

Yes, the Chinese premium 6SN7 is the CV181. I don't know that there's a huge difference between the Treasure and the Psvane, except possibly for selection, but I could be wrong. I *think* the Sophia is different, since Richard commissions his own tubes, but again I'm not certain. I have a feeling the Sophia might be better. A friend of mine has these and likes them very much. I understand they really do come close to the Mullard ECC32.

 

As for your Saga, I'd imagine some break-in time is in order. :-) But those Russian 6SN7s are not very good-sounding. I even have some of the supposedly "better" NOS ones, from a certain year and factory, but they're still unlistenable to me.