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Schiit Saga vs Freya


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12 hours ago, motberg said:

Could you please comment on the sound-stage size ? Thanks...

 

I think the sound stage 'size' is about the same as with the Sophia Electric 6SN7 (my previous tube for the Saga). With the Shuguang, everything is better focused which creates more perceived space/air in the overall sound image and more precise positioning of individual instruments and detail. Overall, the Shuguang sounds more relaxed than the Sophia, which started to sound slightly edgy to my ears.. 
 

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2 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

I think the sound stage 'size' is about the same as with the Sophia Electric 6SN7 (my previous tube for the Saga). With the Shuguang, everything is better focused which creates more perceived space/air in the overall sound image and more precise positioning of individual instruments and detail. Overall, the Shuguang sounds more relaxed than the Sophia, which started to sound slightly edgy to my ears.. 
 

 

From reports/reviews I have read on the internet (so you know it is true ;) ) the Shuguang has quite a bit of variability - a kind of crap shoot as to what you particular sample does SQ wise.  This assertion has kept me so far from sinking the $100 in one.  Perhaps I should just roll the dice...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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6 hours ago, crenca said:

 

From reports/reviews I have read on the internet (so you know it is true ;) ) the Shuguang has quite a bit of variability - a kind of crap shoot as to what you particular sample does SQ wise.  This assertion has kept me so far from sinking the $100 in one.  Perhaps I should just roll the dice...

 

I've seen no reports about SQ issues with the Shuguang CV181-Z, but some suggest that the tube may last only a year (or a few thousand hours?). Another option is the newer Psvane CV181-TII. I can say that it sounds very similar to the Shuguang CV181-Z in the Saga..

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For a supposedly premium product, the black Shuguangs sure are failure prone. I ordered 2 sets of 6SL7 and 6SN7 for my tube amp. One of the 6SN7s had a factory defect out of the box (top frosting was missing, didn’t work). The certification card that came with them were just for cosmetics I suppose. After a multi-month shipping cycle in which I had to pay return postage to China, I got another set....one of which stopped working within one day.

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9 hours ago, GUTB said:

For a supposedly premium product, the black Shuguangs sure are failure prone. I ordered 2 sets of 6SL7 and 6SN7 for my tube amp. One of the 6SN7s had a factory defect out of the box (top frosting was missing, didn’t work). The certification card that came with them were just for cosmetics I suppose. After a multi-month shipping cycle in which I had to pay return postage to China, I got another set....one of which stopped working within one day.

 

That sucks. Luckily the Saga only uses a single tube so that gives you a 50% chance it will work first time with a Shuguang.. Just kidding. ;) I have two of them from thetubestore.com and both work fine, without noise or hum. I'll see how long they last..

 

The Shuguang, Psvane and Sophia Electric are new production tubes that compete with or even beat the increasingly rare and expensive best NOS 6SN7 tubes, SQ-wise, and I think being new production may make them a surer bet in terms of reliability than what is currently offered as new (or as good as new) old stock. And when a new production tube eventually fails then you can simply replace it with the same new tube.

 

For the above reasons I personally prefer the best new production 6SN7 tubes over old stock. I also think we should support the development of even better sounding tubes for hifi by buying new production tubes.. 

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  • 5 months later...

A few questions regarding the Saga:

 

1. Can I run a sub off of one of the pre-outs and the other set of pre-out going to my power amp?

2. You guys say "long" IC runs won't work well with a passive pre-amp. What constitutes "long"? My current ones are 6 feet.

3. Long shot here: would a Saga with the tube be a poor man's Oppo UDP 205 with the ModWright mod? I currently have a stock OPPO 205.

 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, RND4mGuy said:

A few questions regarding the Saga:

 

1. Can I run a sub off of one of the pre-outs and the other set of pre-out going to my power amp?

2. You guys say "long" IC runs won't work well with a passive pre-amp. What constitutes "long"? My current ones are 6 feet.

3. Long shot here: would a Saga with the tube be a poor man's Oppo UDP 205 with the ModWright mod? I currently have a stock OPPO 205.

 

Thanks!

 

1)  I don't think so - you select one or the other

2)  I have heard long answers involving shielding, signal, etc., my sense however is that anything under 10 feet is good to go, unless your environment is unusual

3) Well it is only a pre, but if you put an ESS chip DAC upstream then perhaps it would be.  I am not sure as to the real quality of the ModWright modifications of the analogue output stage on the 205 - is the Saga in the same realm??  How would you know without comparing sound & component/circuit quality?

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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1. On my Freya I can run pre-outs to both Vidars and a sub amp.

Nearfield setup-Matrix Element H USB>Curious Evolved>Yggy OG>Freya+>Mono Trys>Harbeth P3ESR 40th & Martin Logan Dynamo 1100X & Burson Soloist w/ Super Charger> Mr.Speakers Ether 2,& Technics 1500C, Arcromat> SoundSmith Carmen MkII > Zu Mission>Parks Puffin Toslink.. Blue Jeans interconnects, Pangea power cables, IsoAcoustics feet, Goldpoint SW2X

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, RND4mGuy said:

... 1. Can I run a sub off of one of the pre-outs and the other set of pre-out going to my power amp? ...

From the Saga user manual:

 

"2 RCA Outputs. We’ve provided two sets of RCA outputs here, so you can connect to 2 amps, or an amp and a subwoofer, or you can just use a single output. You don’t have to use both."

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What's all this crap about "the Saga does better with the Shugang [or insert your tube here]...???  An opinion based on a single tube is WORTHLESS.  Every tube is different.  Some NOS tubes are crap, or great, just as the cheapest new tubes can sound great or terrible.  There is very little consistency in tubes, though the best NOS tubes have far more consistent performance on the whole.  Instead, report on a dozen examples of a given tube from different batches and then I'll listen to you.  Or, report on a tube that has been well-measured for noise, gain, linearity, and microphonics.  Sorry for the rant folks, but this is common knowledge.  

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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12 hours ago, Sam Lord said:

What's all this crap about "the Saga does better with the Shugang [or insert your tube here]...???  An opinion based on a single tube is WORTHLESS.  Every tube is different.  Some NOS tubes are crap, or great, just as the cheapest new tubes can sound great or terrible.  There is very little consistency in tubes, though the best NOS tubes have far more consistent performance on the whole.  Instead, report on a dozen examples of a given tube from different batches and then I'll listen to you.  Or, report on a tube that has been well-measured for noise, gain, linearity, and microphonics.  Sorry for the rant folks, but this is common knowledge.  

Well, how can there generally be "very little consistency in tubes," while the best NOS tubes have "far more consistent performance on the whole?" Far more, but still very little consistency? And if I understand you correctly, then the left and right channels of a tube amp would likely sound audibly different. Given the amount of reports on the internet about the specific sound of specific tubes, I'd say this is *not* exactly "common knowledge."

 

With the Saga I went back to the Sophia Electric tube (new production). I have two Sophia Electrics bought at different times and they sound very similar, and quite different from e.g. a Shuguang CV181-Z (new production), of which I also have two samples, bought from different webstores and sounding pretty similar. I have 4 Electro-harmonix 6CG7 (Gold) tubes (new production), bought from two different webstores. I use one in a Schiit Vali 2 preamp. I tried all four and (again) they sound very similar to me, but different from e.g. a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 (new production), or the stock NOS 6BZ7 tube.

 

YMMV, but personally I'm much inclined to believe that same brand/type tubes sound (very) similar and that different brand/type tubes sound different. These may not be night and day differences (unless a tube is defective), but they're readily audible. At least, that's my experience with the Schiit preamps.

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Hello all,

 

Just curious...has anyone heard the difference between the Freya and Saga in their system?  I'm considering buying the Saga to use with a singe Vidar with my Monitor Audio Silver 300's and Bluesound Node 2, but I MAY consider getting the Freya and two Vidar's to go with my setup if it may improve the sound.  That said, I think one Vidar would probably be enough - my speakers are 90 db effecient and 8 ohms.  Either way, if I could get a similar sound it would benefit my financially to just go with the Saga / Vidar set up.

 

Any thoughts???

 

Any finally, for you Saga owners how would you say it fares, paired with whatever amplification you're using, with what you've used in the past???

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@dbanker I haven't heard the Freya. The Saga (in tube mode) is a very nice sounding preamp, especially with the Vidar (other power amps were Carver and Wyred4Sound, and a Rotel preamp). I think Jason Stoddard (Schiit) himself prefers the Saga. The Saga is a simpler design (no gain stage) with lower distortion and SNR than the Freya (in tube mode). With the Saga and a single Vidar you will have plenty of power to drive 90db efficient speakers. You won't need the extra gain of the Freya. :)

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The Saga measures slightly better. Whether that translates into something audible or not  is an open question. I’d tend to doubt it.  I’d say what you really want to look at are the additional features with the Freya and if you want or need them: additional JFET output mode, balanced in/out, more steps in the volume control. The JFET mode is a very good sounding transistor pre. 

If those features don’t interest you, get the Saga. If you think you might want them, go for the Freya. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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49 minutes ago, firedog said:

The Saga measures slightly better. Whether that translates into something audible or not  is an open question. I’d tend to doubt it.  I’d say what you really want to look at are the additional features with the Freya and if you want or need them: additional JFET output mode, balanced in/out, more steps in the volume control. The JFET mode is a very good sounding transistor pre. 

If those features don’t interest you, get the Saga. If you think you might want them, go for the Freya. 

 

Excellent points made Abtr & firedog.  Interesting that Jason prefers the Saga with Vidar!  Never would have guessed.

 

Not to open the balanced vs. unbalanced debate...but I wonder if it would be worth going to the Freya based on the balanced option alone.  I've been eyeing a PS Audio Stellar S300 (Class AB / D hybrid) with 140 x 2 @ 8 ohms and 300 x2 @ 4 ohms with balanced inputs.  This also might be a good option with the Freya.  HOWEVER, I wonder how the Freya would sound into 2 Vidars balanced vs. just the Saga with one Freya.  Would there really even be much of a difference in my setup???  The Saga and the Vidar would be right next to each other - so no long cable runs with the RCA's.  I would only consider this for the extra noise rejection, but if it would be negligible at best why should I bother?

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On 4/28/2018 at 5:59 PM, Abtr said:

Well, how can there generally be "very little consistency in tubes," while the best NOS tubes have "far more consistent performance on the whole?" Far more, but still very little consistency? And if I understand you correctly, then the left and right channels of a tube amp would likely sound audibly different. Given the amount of reports on the internet about the specific sound of specific tubes, I'd say this is *not* exactly "common knowledge."

 

With the Saga I went back to the Sophia Electric tube (new production). I have two Sophia Electrics bought at different times and they sound very similar, and quite different from e.g. a Shuguang CV181-Z (new production), of which I also have two samples, bought from different webstores and sounding pretty similar. I have 4 Electro-harmonix 6CG7 (Gold) tubes (new production), bought from two different webstores. I use one in a Schiit Vali 2 preamp. I tried all four and (again) they sound very similar to me, but different from e.g. a Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 (new production), or the stock NOS 6BZ7 tube.

 

YMMV, but personally I'm much inclined to believe that same brand/type tubes sound (very) similar and that different brand/type tubes sound different. These may not be night and day differences (unless a tube is defective), but they're readily audible. At least, that's my experience with the Schiit preamps.

 

Tubes are much less consistent than their successors, transistors.  I agree that most tubes have a pretty distinct signature if from the same lots.  NOS tubes, on the whole, have more consistent performance than new tubes.  The testing was usually better, the building techniques and equipment was better (and far more toxic), and their military use mandated very high standards for JAN modes, etc.  But a random buy on Ebay will yield a random cross section of tubes which will result in many which are not defective but aren't good either, i.e. noisy or microphonic or having other less-desirable traits.  But even then they can have nice sounds in a good circuit.  Left vs. right channel tubes usually *do* sound different, but you will rarely notice unless you listen to only channel at a time and on the same speaker.

 

Most people don't figure this out until they understand that testing and matching tubes, especially in high-gain modes, really matters.  Schiit tests and matches their tubes to some degree, even though the common advice from early adopters of Freya was to toss (set aside) the stock EH tubes.  Schiit got so much schiit over this that they bumped the standard tube to the *much* more expensive new Tung Sols.

 

I'm a huge fan of tubes in preamps, we built some of the best ever.  We didn't have a tube tester at first so spent huge sums for the quietest, most consistent and matched 12AX7s we could find, $150/pr our cost in the early 90s.  My greatest equipment regret was not buying an ARC Ref 5 preamp in its first iteration, it was magical.  That was using a sweet but sluggish Krell and Apogee speakers.  Our preamp came later, was more honest and quieter, but that Ref 5 painted a velvety-thick soundfield that extended unnaturally right around and behind you...sigh.  I have a Freya, a set of new Tung-Sols and old RCAs (all matched), but haven't installed it yet.  But even with the (earlier stock EH) lousy tubes I know I'll get some magic.  My main point is that using a dealer that provides good testing and matching is really necessary in voltage-gain circuits unless you have the gear to test them by yourself.  

 

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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  • 6 months later...
9 hours ago, h.rav said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a Freya from a Saga. Has anyone experienced better sound quality stepping up from Saga to Freya?

I don't see much reason to step up unless you want features the Freya has that the Saga doesn't. SQ isn't exactly  a feature. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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On 10/28/2017 at 5:32 PM, Abtr said:

 

I've seen no reports about SQ issues with the Shuguang CV181-Z, but some suggest that the tube may last only a year (or a few thousand hours?). Another option is the newer Psvane CV181-TII. I can say that it sounds very similar to the Shuguang CV181-Z in the Saga..

Have any of you Freya owners tried an RCA-, GE-, or Sylvania-built JAN NOS 6SN7? I have an acquaintance who owns a a Freya and has settled on a WWII NOS JAN 6SN7 as being far superior to any recently built tubes after trying the Shuguang, ElectroHarmonix, SovTech and several other new manufacture 6SN7s from around the world. He found a source (a ham radio operator) who had a stash of different JAN tubes he's had for years. My friend bought, what he hopes will be a "lifetime buy" of six 6SN7s from the guy. The seller ran each one on a full function tube tester to make sure that the ones my acquaintance was buying had not become gassy in the ensuing 70 years. Damned nice of him. Depending on how they were stored, some surplus JAN tubes have lost at least a part of their vacuum.

George

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/20/2018 at 1:49 PM, gmgraves said:

Have any of you Freya owners tried an RCA-, GE-, or Sylvania-built JAN NOS 6SN7? I have an acquaintance who owns a a Freya and has settled on a WWII NOS JAN 6SN7 as being far superior to any recently built tubes after trying the Shuguang, ElectroHarmonix, SovTech and several other new manufacture 6SN7s from around the world. He found a source (a ham radio operator) who had a stash of different JAN tubes he's had for years. My friend bought, what he hopes will be a "lifetime buy" of six 6SN7s from the guy. The seller ran each one on a full function tube tester to make sure that the ones my acquaintance was buying had not become gassy in the ensuing 70 years. Damned nice of him. Depending on how they were stored, some surplus JAN tubes have lost at least a part of their vacuum.

 

The 1951 to 1953 Sylvania 6SN7GT are my second favorite tube in my Saga, second to the 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates. I don't care for the 5692 tubes. This would probably also translate to the Freya, except you would need four Sylvanias instead of one. Brent Jessee could probably sell your friend the four Sylvanias he would need for the Freya for about $200 as long as you believe the 2 rivet hole Sylvanias sound as good as the 3 rivet hole tubes ... Jessee does. Spending $1000 for four rare Tung Sol 6S7GT round plates is probably not good value using a Freya but really is with the Saga in my experience.

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Schiit have publicly stated that the Saga measures "slightly" better; whether that is audible is the question.
The more important difference between them is probably the feature set: the added jfet (active transistor ) mode, and balanced output and input on the Freya, as well as getting 128 vs. 64 volume steps. 
 

So I'd say the big decision (other than the money) is whether you need any of the additional features. For me, the volume control and balanced output were important. For other people they probably aren't. I also found after receiving it that I prefer the sound of the jfet over the others (I do also listen to the tubes for fun, or tube coloring). 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I think volume control is a big deal in any audio system. Since my RME ADI-2 DAC with digital volume control is out for repair (the USB input stopped working) I reinstalled my Schiit Modi Multibit DAC and Saga preamp. It took a few days for my hearing to adapt but then I fell in love again with the Saga's tube output (just an analogue volume control plus active output buffer without gain). It beats the Saga's passive output which sounds slightly 'thin' in comparison. I never tried the RME with the Saga but I will when I have it back. 

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