Schiit Saga vs Freya

[crenca]

Anyone like to offer reasons for buying one over the other? I have M-Audio M-38 studio monitors with 1/4", RCA, and XLR connections. Looking for a new pre-amp. The Saga seems to offer the potential of doing the job very well, but I wonder what I would gain by springing for the extra bucks needed for the Freya. Any thoughts would be welcome....

 

I wonder what the differences in circuit really mean. The Saga has a single tube buffer - how that even work in 2 channel stereo circuit escapes me....

[crenca]

The less electronics in the analogue audio signal path the better. I don't need the gain of the Freya, just the passive resistor based volume control plus active low impedance buffer of the Saga. And in my system the Saga sounds (much) better than any other preamp I've tried so far..

 

As did Firedog (with the Freya's pair of gain stage tubes), I will upgrade the Saga's single (NOS Sovtek 6SN7GT/6H8C) buffer stage tube with a brand new Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB that should last ~10.000 hours..

 

Thanks for the input/explanation/review everyone - I am a tubey newby . I think I am going to go for a Saga - looking forward to the remote as much as anything...

 

Abtr, how much do you expect to hear the differences between the factory and the Tung-Sol? I know everyone points to a little more this, a bit of that - but if you were to give a % (say, 5%) what would it be you think?

[crenca]

Actually, I'd expect more reliability with NOS tubes than new ones. :-) I've compared 6SN7s for years now and I always come back the the GE 6SN7GTB. A solid, rich and balanced presentation. You can get matched pairs for about the same as a premium new 6SN7.

 

zackthedog, did the premium new you tried include the "The Shuguang Treasure" (why do I feel guilty even typing that out? ) or the Sophia Electric?

[crenca]

Oh, and the new Psvane has a very pleasant sound; well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical. Bass, highs, texture and details are great. The Tung-sol 6SN7GTB (new/reissue) is also quite open sounding but sounds relatively harsh. I think the Psvane is in a different league soundwise..

 

Two tuby newby questons:

 

1) Is the Psvane your referring to the same product as a "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z"?

 

2) #1 (rather the same or two different products) is a different product altogether than a "Sophia Electric 6SN7" correct?

 

I received my Saga yesterday and with the factory tube my first impressions fall into these sorts of thoughts:

 

"who stole my subwoofer?"

"what happened to my tweeters?"

"why do most recordings sound metallic, brassy, distant, etc.?"

"why do some (but not all) voices sound a hair more "natural", and why do brass instruments (trumpet, etc.) also seem to benefit sometimes from this metallic coloration?"

 

I am sure none of this surprises you guys...

[crenca]

Are you sure you are listening to the Saga in *active* mode? Depending on your power amp and/or sub, the Saga's passive mode may sound a bit lifeless. In active mode (indicated by the most right LED) I think the Saga sounds already very good with a (standard) Sovtek tube, maybe you must give it some more time.. In my system I prefer the Schiit Saga over a number of other good preamps..

 

Yes - I am mostly running it using the tube (active). Actually, in either mode (active or passive) the low and high's are rolled off compared to when I run my DAC directly into my (integrated) amp - I am hoping it is a break in thing...

[crenca]

Are you running the Saga into an integrated amp? That makes no sense. What integrated amp?

 

What...I thought everybody does that...

 

Seriously, the Saga is part of an upgrade to my "computer speaker" setup that I actually listen to more than anything else because I work so much on the computer:

 

(Jriver or Roon) > Ifi iDSD > Emotiva a-100 (a cheap Brio clone) > Legacy Audio Studio HD's & REL sub

 

My plan (such as it is - I spend most of my time thinking about world domination ) is to upgrade the amp and so I purchased this Saga and I will pair it up with some similar budget-but-hi-fi amp like perhaps Schiit's soon to be sold class A/B 100/200 watt (can't remember the name) or perhaps a Parasound A23, etc.

 

So right now the Saga is in between the iFi and the Emotiva - it is the only thing new/changed (that, and an additional short run of Blue Jeans "LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable"). Well, I have the volume control on the a-100 (which I assume is cheap potentiometer commensurate with the rest of the unit) turned all the way up - which I believe (correct me if I am wrong) gets it out of the way (if not out of the circuit).

[crenca]

My experiences (and thus, my opinion) tell me that Chinese tubes are particularly junk.

 

I can't wait till they build my car

 

Seriously, why are not the Germans making tubes?

[crenca]

I haven't a clue as to what might be going wrong here. What's the input impedance of the Emotiva a-100?

 

Only thing the manual says is:

 

"Input sensitivity (for full output): 600 mV (8 ohm load)"

 

Saga's specs read:

 

"Output Impedance: 180 ohms"

 

I can't find the impedance (RCA out) listed for the Ifi iDSD...

 

So a mismatch you think?

[crenca]

Not very likely, unless the input impedance of the Emotiva is below 2k Ohm. Maybe you created a ground loop somehow..

 

Ok, just in the past 30 minutes my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (these are "new stock" - recently manufactured unless I am mistaken) was delivered via Fed-Ex. I ordered these from Upscale Audio, and according to the side of the box they have done some measurements ("T1" & "T2" - no idea what they mean) and graded them (these are "A") and they checked the box "burn in" so I assume they have some time on them.

 

In any case, my subwoofer and tweeters have been returned (I am going to catch the SOB who "borrowed" them ) and a much more neutral (can't hear any metal harshness/veil) presentation is coming from my speakers.

 

UPDATE: oh boy - listening to Kurt Ellings "Bonita Cuba" (24/96) and I am resisting turning it up to rock concert level's...perhaps I am hearing tube magic...nice

 

Much much better...

[crenca]

Yes, I also found the new Tung-sol sounding better than the factory NOS Sovtek tube. And the 6SN7 is a double triode tube. I guess T1 stands for the first triode and T2 for the second. In the Saga the 6SN7 isn't used for amplification/gain so the two triodes being precisely 'matched' is not that important. Anyway, good to hear your problem is solved.

 

My working theory now is that the factory Sovtek tube I have is a particularly bad sample. Schiit would probably do themselves some favors by doing a minimum test of some sort just from a return point of view OR perhaps the customer base for tubes is experienced enough to know these sorts of things...

[crenca]

Sorry for the (slight) delay. I received the GE 6SN7GTB (1962 vintage) tube for the Saga. To be precise: a GE 6SN7GTB (EC33) red label, like this one:

 

.........................................[ATTACH=CONFIG]33173[/ATTACH]

 

Gm = 2400 (a dimensionless number) for each triode section, and in my current system it's the best tube I've tried; better than the Psvane and Shuguang.

 

Here's my personal (preliminary) Saga tube review:

 

- Sovtek 6SN7GT (factory 1970-80 vintage): Nice but relatively dull

- Tung-sol 6SN7GTB (new): Relatively harsh but quite open sounding

- Psvane CV181-T mkII (new): Well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical

- Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z (new): Like the Psvane, well-balanced/coherent, open and dynamical, but a bit more lush sounding

- GE 6SN7GTB red label (1962 vintage): Best I tried so far, very dynamical, very well-balanced, very coherent, very good bass and mids and smooth highs

 

The GE tube really rocks, and I don't think this is an artifact of my system (although it does seem to tame the KEF's highs a bit). It sounds very natural and authoritative in every frequency range and genre. Also, of the tubes I tried, it sounds the most different from the Saga's 'passive mode'. Wow!

 

Thanks for the review Abtr. I have a Sophia Electric tube on the way, but I will no doubt have try one of these GE tubes as well - my Legacy Studio HD's are tipped up on the upper end too much as well...

 

I have a question: on the tube power amp side, how does Rogue Audio get 100 wpc from their quad KT120 setup (Cronos Magnum II) when everyone else seems to get 60-75 wpc? Are Rogue doing something legit to get the extra power or are they sacrificing tube life playing the numbers game? If this has already been discussed please point me to the link (I could not find a thread that addressed this)...

[crenca]

You're welcome. Let us know what you think of the Sophia Electric and the GE..

 

Just inserted my Sophia 6SN7. It fits the Saga but just, 1 mil if that to spare. This is the limit - if there are any larger and more bulbous 6SN7's on the market they won't be going into any Saga's.

 

SQ impresion out of the box is that it is not quite as open (which as Abtr noted is a bit "harsh") as the new stock Tung-sol. I immediately deleted by -3db top shelf which I had starting round 6khz. But it is not just the extension, it is more "smooth" for want of a better word, and I am trying to decided if this involves some loss of detail. This is not to say it sounds bad, and after listening to Kurt Elling's "Bonita Cuba" (24/96 - one of my voice test tracks) it probably has a little bit more of that mid range tube magic than the Tung-sol. These differences I am describing fall on the small side fer sur. Bottom end may also be a bit less extended and tight..maybe...

 

I will report back in a few days after I get some more hours and on/off cycling on it...

[crenca]

Folks, give those tubes time to run in for 50-100 hours before making any statements on how they sound.

 

I have heard tubes go from bright to dull and dull to bright, closed in to open up, open to more closed etc.

 

Making a judgement out the box with no hours really does not tell the full story on how a tube will sound.

 

I hear ya. I will say however that the new stock Tung-sol did not change significantly at all IMO after a break in period. Of course I purchased it from a dealer who puts some unknown about of time on it before selling it...

[crenca]

I don't know about the Rogue amp. It's certainly possible to get that from a pair of KT120s but I have to think they're driving them pretty hard. VTL used to run the daylights out of EL34s...

 

Thanks - if anyone else has any insight as to this question I would be interested...

[crenca]

What is the actual question? 6550= 35 watt plate dissipation vs kt120= 60 watts; 6550 good for 60-75watts

Another overly simple way to view it: higher plate voltage= larger V swing= more watts= more heat =shorter life

 

As with an engine, you can always adjust to get more power out of it right up until it breaks or wears out. A tube is a voltage controlled current valve. Higher voltages allow for higher currents through the plate resistance which gives more power at the expense of tube life.

 

Thanks 4est - this is a good explanation and what I thought was the reality of the situation. I just wondered if I was missing some aspect that allowed Rogue to run their KT120's at 100 watt a push-pull pair vs. 60-75 a push-pull pair (as almost everyone else does) and avoid the "higher plate voltage= larger V swing= more watts= more heat =shorter life" consequence. One thing you read about from end users is the claim that Rogue's gear has "long tube life" and the like. But how, given the fact that they are running their KT120's "hotter" than everyone else?

[crenca]

I was attempting to keep it simple by not mentioning bias current-bias being the amount of current flowing at idle. FWIW, I do not think 100w is a lot for four 6550 or KT88/90/120. As I mentioned in my earlier response. The 6550(these are all 6550 variants IMO) is good for 60, maybe 75 watts per pair. It does not seem as if they are running them hard.

 

Well, according the manuel online at Rogue's site:

 

"Using the bias tool, slowly turn the screw on the potentiometer that is adjacent to theswitch until the bias meter reads ~ 35 miliamps (mA)."

 

Is 35 mA a 'hot' idle current setting for the 6550?

 

update: I am not trying to denigrate Rogue here - in fact I like the sound I have heard from this amp when I have demo'd it in the past and could easily see myself owning one despite the fact that I might be investing in tubes more often - I just am trying to get a grasp on what the design is really doing...

[crenca]

Interesting Abtr is your journey through NOS rolling. I so far have hesitated to order an GE (or any other) NOS tube yet. The seemingly hard-to-pin-down experience has me a bit weary (I am already confused as to which tube is which and how to specify exactly what one is ordering) . That, and I have so far been happy with the top to bottom sound of my Sophia Electric new production tube.

 

Now that I have more hours/cycles on it, I would say that it has not changed much. I would say that the bottom end might have extended a bit, but the top seems to be the same smooth/extended but non "harsh" I liked in the beginning.

 

I have also replaced the Emotiva a-100 with a Parasound A23, which is doing a better job gripping my (obviously somewhat difficult to drive) Legacy Studio HD's such that everything below 200hz sounds cleaner and all around more resolved. Sound stage now also has real depth instead of just width, and separation/resolution is more precise (not that the Emotiva was "bad" at these things, especially considering its price).

[crenca]

Well, I find tube rolling to be quite enjoyable and different tubes do make a relatively big difference in my system. I didn't try the Sophia Electric but I find the 1960s GE 6SN7 (GTA/GTB) tubes better sounding in the Saga than a Tung-sol 6SN7GTB, Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and Psvane CV181-TII; all new production tubes. And I understand that the Sophias (like the Shuguang and Psvane) are sold in different grades or classes. Did you buy a grade A tube and how can you be sure? I think (for the price) these brands should only sell grade A tubes. And it's annoying how they add to the confusion by not providing explicit markings on their tubes that indicate the grade. Their different grade tubes are practically indistinguishable.

 

Anyway, based on my experience with the Shuguang and Psvane tubes, I think the SQ difference between the Sophia and a NOS GE 6SN7GTA may be as large as or larger than the difference between your new Tung-sol and Sophia. The GE really surprised me and I really like it. If I were you I'd try it.

 

Well gosh darn it, you convinced me (again) to try the GE 6SN7GTA/GTB (not that these are the exactly the same I think...)

 

Is this one you tried/recommend:

 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/ge-6sn7gtb-1965-vintage

 

and what about that price - someone upstream said they go for $60 but this one is more than twice that (though the dealer has a good rep and does real testing/grading and that is worth something and I am willing to pay for it...up to a point).

 

The Sophia is graded, and someone at Sophia Electric marks it by hand in ink on the base (I assume they do this stateside). I went for the top level "grade A". Of course, I have no idea how they determine their grades or if it is really all that significant, though with the rep of these Chinese tubes/factories of inconsistency-hit-and-miss-quality I figured I would go for the grade A just in case...

[crenca]

You can get them for far less. I paid about $40 for a well graded single GE 6SN7GTB and $70 for a matched pair and €35 for a single GE 6SN7GTA, and in my system, all sound better than my new production tubes..

 

Well, I purchased a pair of GE 6SN7GTA from a seller on ebay for about $60. He claimed they were manufactured in the early 1950's, though I can neither confirm or deny this. The typeface on the boxes certainly look the part . I have had one in my system since yesterday. A bit more bass, particularly below 50hz than the Sophia. I am trying to decide if what I am hearing is simply "more", or if it is also a looser and less well defined. At this point I think it is a bit of both. A well recorded double bass sounds good, but just a bit too full and bloomy. I think the Sophia's bass might be the more accurate of the two. The mids sound pretty much the same to me, excepting a bit of coloration on certain recording/voices that the GE has. Can't seem to pin this down, except to say at this point it is just different - sometimes I prefer the Sophia and sometimes I prefer the GE. The treble is also very similar and well extended, but here I can say that I hear just a bit more sibilance sometimes out of the GE.

 

Overall, at this point I would say that the Sophia is probably the more even and "accurate" of the two tubes, but that on certain recordings the GE seems to bring out a bit of something extra that sounds nice. Given the price differential ($30 vs $100), the GE is in fact the better deal...

[crenca]

Question for those with some tube knowledge: Is the Tube still in some way in the circuit when the Saga is in passive mode? Obviously the tube is still powered up (and you don't save tube life by using your Saga in passive mode).

 

I think this might be the case, or I have a bad case of expectation bias because when I swap tubes I swear I can hear the qualities of the whatever tube I have in in passive mode as well....??

[crenca]

I once spent a whole evening carefully comparing 12AX7s in the line section an old Scott preamp. I was really torn between which brand sounded better, until I realized that I was actually swapping tubes in the phono stage, which was switched out of the circuit. Which is not to say that all tubes sound the same, or that we *always* imagine differences between components, just that this kind of A-B-ing is unreliable.

 

I don't know the circuit, but assuming the active stages are bypassed in passive mode, I'm afraid you might be imagining things. But perhaps someone else knows the operation of the piece better than I and knows a way in which the sound might be affected.

 

Thanks Zackthedog, I see dead people so I know I have a fertile imagination

 

Later on today, I will pull the tube out of my Saga and see if it makes sound in passive mode (no tube inserted). I *think* that will tell us something about the circuit...maybe...

[crenca]

I think you're right. The original Sovtek tube that came with my Saga popped and crackled in both channels and in both active *and* passive mode!

 

yea, I think I am on to something also. Later today when I remove my tube I will let you know if the saga even functions...

[crenca]

Well, it will function without a tube (in passive mode). But what exactly happens in passive mode with the tube inserted?

 

Ah, you have already done this. Seems like we will need someone with real knowledge of the circuit then to answer the question...

[crenca]

16 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

As far as I know, all GE 6SN7GTA tubes are manufactured in the 1950s..

 

 

So far, in my system,  my NOS GE tube really sounds much better than my recently acquired Grade A  Sophia 6SN7 valve. The bass of the GE  is more defined and deeper and more balanced than the Sophia's. Voices and instruments sound effortlessly clear and treble is extended and detailed without a hint of sharpness or sibilance. I'll give the Sophia more time, but I can't imagine it will get even close to the GE..
 

Interesting.  I wonder how much of the difference is the rest of our systems (speakers, DACs, etc.), how much personal preference, etc.  But I really wonder how much difference is based on sample differences between tubes, which based on everything I read appear to have quite a bit of varibility between them even when they are manufactured right next to each other on the same day.

 

I have never popped in my second GE GTA, I will do that and see if I can hear any difference between it and the one I have been using...

[crenca]

On 3/22/2017 at 11:45 AM, Abtr said:

 

I also have 2 GE GTA tubes, as well as 3 GTBs. All sound different and I currently prefer a NOS GE GTA. And all sound better than the Sophia. I think even my Shuguang Treasure and Psvane valves sound better than the Sophia. Maybe something's wrong with the Sophia valve I received..

 

My current) system: USB CA source (PC, Mac) > Intona high speed USB isolator (with Aqvox 5V USB LPS) > Schiit Modi2 multibit USB DAC > Schiit Saga preamp (with GE 6SN7GTA tube) > Wyred4Sound ST500 MKII stereo power amp (feeding KEF LS50s) + active Sunfire HRS12 subwoofer (filtered at ~70Hz). Cables: AQ Cinnamon USB + AQ Big sur RCA + standard power cables. All audio gear is disconnected from AC mains ground (!). 

 

Ya, maybe it is your sample??  I just popped in my Sophia and as in my original review I can only hear very subtle differences between it and my GE GTA.  I also tried running the Saga with no tube in passive mode to get a baseline, and it reminded me just how much the sound is determined by the rest of the Saga - in other words both my Sophia and GTA and the Saga in passive mode all sound much more alike than different.  Not sure what this means - other than what we already know in that my speakers, room, and ears count more than anything else...