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WireWorld Starlight CAT 8 cable review


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Because that mindset doesn't help both us and manufacturers identify issues, find solutions and make better equipment.

In an ideal world with equipment that had perfect circuitry throughout, plissken would be correct, LAN cables wouldn't make a sonic difference... we are not in that prefect world yet, so for some, they do.

 

TBF, you ought to chill a bit, your recent comments really have come across as deliberate plissken bashing.

 

Perhaps have a glass of wine and a Valium chaser now and then.

 

;-)

 

 

I like having data but look how difficult this is. You got one guy acting as a quasi scientist and a bunch of other guys kibbitzing. Do you realize these cables generally come with a 30 day return policy and you just plug it in, listen, and see if you like it?

Plissken, that unsighted subjective listening test requires little effort and two ears and a brain are excellent scientific instruments.

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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This is exactly it.

 

However, people with a little knowledge see everything digital as bits and are satisfied with bitperfection.

 

The domain, however, is largely an Electrical problem.

 

It is a waste of time to try and convince the 'bits are bits' people. Some of them can't overcome the cognitive dissonance they would inevitably undergo if they did really simple tests.

 

Or you could have a group of people that will rebuff any hard evidence to the contrary. I'll look at peoples audible evaluation as soon as they control for bias.

 

That's the difference here.

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Plissken the problem you have is you conducted your test AFTER stating your prejudice

 

No, I've stated a hypothesis based on my current understanding about how Ethernet works, about how non-realtime OS's work (multiple copy stack), and based on a few cursory articles:

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt512/slyt512.pdf

 

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/june2001pcd_mixedsignal.pdf

 

 

All give some insight into how this works and why I'm discounting some of the bogey men that are paraded about.

 

AND I'm 100% willing to be proven wrong.

 

What would it take to show you are throwing punches @ shadows.

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No, I've stated a hypothesis based on my current understanding about how Ethernet works, about how non-realtime OS's work (multiple copy stack), and based on a few cursory articles:

 

www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt512/slyt512.pdf

 

www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/june2001pcd_mixedsignal.pdf

 

 

All give some insight into how this works and why I'm discounting some of the bogey men that are paraded about.

 

AND I'm 100 willing to be proven wrong.

 

What would it take to show you are throwing punches @ shadows.

 

Do my posts appear hostile? Just curious.

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Do my posts appear hostile? Just curious.

 

Not hostile. Just lacking for content other than the 'feels'.

 

The purpose behind me posting the test setup (computer, NIC card, switch, cabling, measurements that I'm starting to take etc...) is so it's out of my hands as far as any of my own innate biases in the matter. The D/A will be my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 and the A/D will be the EMU 1212M PCIe. All balanced cabling.

 

There are some bumps that I would like to get around and one of those is when NIC teaming with Intel's implementation you have to have interfaces set at the same speed etc...

 

What I wanted to do measurement wise is give the 12 foot $330 cable every advantage. That is compare to a ~315ft cable. Run the PHY for the $330 WireWorld at either 10 or 100, run the PHY for the 315ft CAT5e Berk-tek at 1000.

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Not hostile. Just lacking for content other than the 'feels'.

 

The purpose behind me posting the test setup (computer, NIC card, switch, cabling, measurements that I'm starting to take etc...) is so it's out of my hands as far as any of my own innate biases in the matter. The D/A will be my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 and the A/D will be the EMU 1212M PCIe. All balanced cabling.

 

There are some bumps that I would like to get around and one of those is when NIC teaming with Intel's implementation you have to have interfaces set at the same speed etc...

 

What I wanted to do measurement wise is give the 12 foot $330 cable every advantage. That is compare to a ~315ft cable. Run the PHY for the $330 WireWorld at either 10 or 100, run the PHY for the 315ft CAT5e Berk-tek at 1000.

 

Well I guess its as good a place as any to start. As for "feels" I don't know there is an objective standard for how any cable will sound in every system universally. Not everything that can be measured matters and not everything that matters can be measured. My key measurement is value. I measure value as $/>SQ. Let me know if you have any questions, I know you didn't understand my last post :)

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Well I guess its as good a place as any to start. As for "feels" I don't know there is an objective standard for how any cable will sound in every system universally. Not everything that can be measured matters and not everything that matters can be measured. My key measurement is value. I measure value as $/>SQ. Let me know if you have any questions, I know you didn't understand my last post :)

 

A cable can not sound anything that it does not measure. This misplaced belief that we don't know what measure for is problematic. Sorry just don't agree with your popular sentiment regarding cables and the effected output.

 

Because if what you say is true then blinded testing would prove the measurement wrong. And this hasn't happened yet. Look to the infamous 'Chris Wiggles' experiment were he had an audiophile with a $500,000 system couldn't reliably tell $30,000 in cables from $100.

 

We each have to consider that our own view points are wrong before there can be meaningful movement. I'm birthing a setup that will give a $330 / 27ft cable every advantage. If it all nulls out then it all nulls out. If it doesn't then we have something to figure out how to measure for.

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A cable can not sound anything that it does not measure. This misplaced belief that we don't know what measure for is problematic. Sorry just don't agree with your popular sentiment regarding cables and the effected output.

 

Because if what you say is true then blinded testing would prove the measurement wrong. And this hasn't happened yet. Look to the infamous 'Chris Wiggles' experiment were he had an audiophile with a $500,000 system couldn't reliably tell $30,000 in cables from $100.

 

We each have to consider that our own view points are wrong before there can be meaningful movement. I'm birthing a setup that will give a $330 / 27ft cable every advantage. If it all nulls out then it all nulls out. If it doesn't then we have something to figure out how to measure for.

 

While I admire the passion you have for your hypothesis I tend to align more with the hypothesis of Harman International. They always conduct both subjective and objective testing. If all you needed were objective measurements why would they bother doing subjective testing? Their method seems to work for them and it seems to work for me too.

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A cable can not sound anything that it does not measure.

 

At least two ways to interpret "can't measure":

 

1. Not possible to ever measure

2. Not possible presently given where things stand in terms of our present understandings and the set of tools available

 

I'm in the latter camp with respect to why "we" don't have measurements that align with many observations many are reporting. (I put we in scare quotes because I suspect many measurements exist but are guarded for competitive advantage.)

 

I several times asked how one would go about confirming with measurements what I heard with one cable smearing a voice. All I got back was the equivalent of a blank stare.

 

This misplaced belief that we don't know what measure for is problematic.

 

I think this is more of a statement about who's doing the measuring - and how they intend to apply the results. Particularly when you see statements like this:

 

Because if what you say is true then blinded testing would prove the measurement wrong.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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While I admire the passion you have for your hypothesis I tend to align more with the hypothesis of Harman International. They always conduct both subjective and objective testing. If all you needed were objective measurements why would they bother doing subjective testing? Their method seems to work for them and it seems to work for me too.

 

Harman conducts subjective testing for preference. Not difference... They then collate and quantify the subjective preference. You really aren't getting the significance.

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(Deleted)

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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I several times asked how one would go about confirming with measurements what I heard with one cable smearing a voice. All I got back was the equivalent of a blank stare.

 

I would have to have the track and the time for starts. I can record that output off my EMU 1212M fed by the DC-1. It should show up since I'm running $0.30 / foot at 315 feet 5e UTP vs CAT8 STP at $27/foot at 12 foot. Right? Or am capable of taking literally $200 in computer parts and negating any negative effect of such a long run? ($59 Mainboard, $30 in RAM, $35 in SSD, $80 in linear PSU and DC/DC ATX).

 

So let me know what the track is and the source is.

 

Again if there is going to be a camp that not everything that is measurable matters and not everything that matters is measurable then there is the alternate theory:

 

Not everything someone thinks they heard, they actually heard.

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So let me know what the track is and the source is.

 

It doesn't dawn on you that you would need to have a system capable of revealing the differences I reported?

 

I'm jumping off now. It's pretty obvious your measurements are only going to prove what you want them to prove.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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Harman conducts subjective testing for preference. Not difference... They then collate and quantify the subjective preference. You really aren't getting the significance.

 

You make a claim as to know how and why Harman tests. Is it because:

 

A) You work at Harman as a tester

B) You have been a paid consultant, engaged by Harman on their testing processes

C) You made it up

Anything other than A or B equals C.

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Harman conducts subjective testing for preference. Not difference... They then collate and quantify the subjective preference. You really aren't getting the significance.

 

So you are saying that people might prefer a component that measures poorly over one that measures well? How is that possible? Why would Harman not know that is impossible? I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that last post.

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It doesn't dawn on you that you would need to have a system capable of revealing the differences I reported?

 

I'm jumping off now. It's pretty obvious your measurements are only going to prove what you want them to prove.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Oh. Sorry, I didn't know you had the very bestest system of all people here @ CA ;-) Ok, what is your system? Did it occur to you that I may a revealing system?

 

Why can't you simply supply the track and time of the smeared vocals? Here is why:

 

And I'm now going to poke a hole in your circle of logic: If I post two of the same track of what you provided and neither track has the smeared vocals, what's that say about the competency of your system that it would be affected by something as trivial as swapping out 12 feet out of a possible 328 feet of cable?

 

Let's go one better. Supply the track you mentioned, and if my system smears BOTH tracks then my system will suck. Right?

 

I mean in that case of no vocal smearing on my system regardless of cable I just tore a potentially megabuck system up with an hour of my time and $200 in parts.

 

What track is it and the time and I will make sure it's one I test with.

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You make a claim as to know how and why Harman tests. Is it because:

 

A) You work at Harman as a tester

B) You have been a paid consultant, engaged by Harman on their testing processes

C) You made it up

Anything other than A or B equals C.

 

D: I read both Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole

 

I have my HT setup for my subjective taste with 3dB house curve at 48-60Hz.

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So you are saying that people might prefer a component that measures poorly over one that measures well? How is that possible? Why would Harman not know that is impossible? I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that last post.

 

 

If I shot myself in the foot you would be well motivated to find out the fault in my logic.

 

Yes, people sometimes prefer components that measure differently and in some cases poorly. Look at these 1 watt SET amps. They measure poorly and some prefer them. I think the ones I've heard are shit personally.

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D: I read both Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole

I have my HT setup for my subjective taste with 3dB house curve at 48-60Hz.

 

Reading a commercially published article and having access to proprietary testing methodologies are two different things.

So you are saying you made it up based on something you read on the internet, ok

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If I shot myself in the foot you would be well motivated to find out the fault in my logic.

Yes, people sometimes prefer components that measure differently and in some cases poorly. Look at these 1 watt SET amps. They measure poorly and some prefer them. I think the ones I've heard are shit personally.

 

This is 100% the best post I have ever seen you write (although i did not read all of them lol)

Welcome to the "dark side" of unreliable, selfish, horrible, personally satisfying, completely irrational, wonderful personal bias. Your measurements can't predict bumpkis based on your above statement.

We all have them and welcome to the club.

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Ok, what is your system?

 

See my profile. I list it so that my reported observations can be taken in proper context. Also I feel it's important to provide context into my approach to system building.

 

Did it occur to you that I may a revealing system?

 

You don't list your system in your profile, so I assume you have a reason to not want readers to glean context from your system and your system building approach.

 

But to answer your question, no I don't. Given your bias, I can't imagine you'd have a system I'd find sufficient resolving. More on this below.

 

 

Why can't you simply supply the track and time of the smeared vocals?

 

The song is "It Is Well With My Soul" sung by Audrey Assad. The reason I didn't offer it before is because it's not about that particular song. It's about a change to my system that came about as a result of a swap of Ethernet cables. There were other songs we listened to that day when doing comparisons. The smearing/flattening was evident on all of them.

 

 

And I'm now going to poke a hole in your circle of logic: If I post two of the same track of what you provided and neither track has the smeared vocals, what's that say about the fidelity of your system that it would be affected by something as trivial as swapping out 12 feet out of a possible 328 feet of cable?

 

The downside to having a really revealing system is that it indiscriminately reveals details that might otherwise be obscured; both good and bad. It actually bothers me that I have to spend so much money to eliminate sources of noise that get in the way of musical enjoyment.

 

That you don't get this suggests that you most likely haven't been trying to improve the resolving capabilities of your own system. You would know that sometimes you don't always like what you hear when you can hear things more clearly. It can be like playing a game of whack-a-mole.

 

(As an aside, it just stunned me to find that the barrel adapter I was using between my microRendu and LPS-1 had been the source of the hot treble that came about after switching to a direct connection. Downside of improving clarity was that I more clearly head the harm this was doing.)

 

Let's go one better. Supply the track you mentioned, and if my system smears BOTH tracks then my system will suck. Right?[/u]

 

You do understand that "smear" is a relative term?

 

I'm certain that a year ago the differences we heard in that voice due to an Ethernet cable swap would have been difficult to detect in my system. Would I say that my system sucked back then? No, but it definitely had issues.

 

Today it still has issues! A year from now I have a feeling that it will be even easier to hear such differences, as that's been the trajectory of my system.

 

Those things that helped improve my system's resolving capabilities are pretty much exactly those audiophile improvements you rail against. That's why I can't help but think you likely have a system that will mask exactly the differences I've reported hearing.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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This is 100% the best post I have ever seen you write (although i did not read all of them lol)

Welcome to the "dark side" of unreliable, selfish, horrible, personally satisfying, completely irrational, wonderful personal bias. Your measurements can't predict bumpkis based on your above statement.

We all have them and welcome to the club.

 

What are you talking about? The output of SET amps can be clearly measured, quantified, and compared. Of course I have biases. It's the human condition.

 

It's why instrumentation and measurement are so important. Measurements are indeed removing my bias.

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If 'they' think about it, it's actually a very different debate.

 

They don't - witness the never-ending fall-back on BER, and "if bits were missing you'd hear clicks or pops."

but those bits have to travel over connections and it's those connections that are IMHO & IME the predominant SQ influencer.

 

It's not so much the travelling bits (if they arrive bit prefect) but the fact that two or more devices are being electrically coupled and thus influence each other and in addition extend the system-wide electrical / gnd network.

 

No need to preach to the already converted. Read the "Beyond Bitperfect" thread or at least the first post.

I expect someone clever on here will be able to show a graph of an Ethernet cable connected vs unplugged with some measurable noise, interference or other variation between the two?

 

I already did this for USB in my system in a rudimentary fashion. Will get to Ethernet when I get to it.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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