AudioQuest adds MQA Support to Dragonflies via firmware

[Wavelength]

Just now, citsur86 said:

 

So then what am I actually getting when I am listening on my MacBook Pro to TIDAL Masters with DFR and it is glowing dark purple? 

 

I just answered that above... so here it is again:

 

DragonFly is a renderer version of MQA. This means the first unfold is done in the application. The second unfold happens in the DragonFly processor and sent to the ESS90xx DAC chip with custom filters that match the track being played.

 

As far as the content (i.e. original sample rate etc...), it's best seen in Audirvana as they spell out the data rates of the original track.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

[citsur86]

1 minute ago, Wavelength said:

 

I just answered that above... so here it is again:

 

DragonFly is a renderer version of MQA. This means the first unfold is done in the application. The second unfold happens in the DragonFly processor and sent to the ESS90xx DAC chip with custom filters that match the track being played.

 

As far as the content (i.e. original sample rate etc...), it's best seen in Audirvana as they spell out the data rates of the original track.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

I understand the difference between a hardware and software unfold and that the first "core" unfold happens in the application in the case of TIDAL.  The DFR is not capable of doing the Core unfold though right?  So if the TIDAL application on Macbook is not doing it, how am I getting anything to the headphones from the DFR on Macbook?

[abrxx]

13 minutes ago, Wavelength said:

DragonFly is a renderer version of MQA. This means the first unfold is done in the application. The second unfold happens in the DragonFly processor and sent to the ESS90xx DAC chip with custom filters that match the track being played.

 

What if the track's original sample rate was > 192 Khz?

 

Does the DragonFly do a third unfold?

[Wavelength]

3 minutes ago, abrxx said:

 

What if the track's original sample rate was > 192 Khz?

 

Does the DragonFly do a third unfold?

 

First DragonFly's max sample rate is 96KHz. So the data going to the dac cannot exceed that. Others here will say they know what goes on here, but I will say I don't. I don't know what the application does in the case of sample rates above the 96K threshold of the dac. Sure I could guess as they do, but I would rather not mislead you.

 

If the MQA LED goes Purple then you know your getting the best possible results from the file you are playing.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

[Wavelength]

16 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

I understand the difference between a hardware and software unfold and that the first "core" unfold happens in the application in the case of TIDAL.  The DFR is not capable of doing the Core unfold though right?  So if the TIDAL application on Macbook is not doing it, how am I getting anything to the headphones from the DFR on Macbook?

 

Ok this is a bit of a confusing question... Tidal, Audirvana and soon to be other renderer capable MQA applications will do the first unfold of the track. Is that your question or something else?

 

Thanks,

Gordon

[citsur86]

Just now, Wavelength said:

 

Ok this is a bit of a confusing question... Tidal, Audirvana and soon to be other renderer capable MQA applications will do the first unfold of the track. Is that your question or something else?

 

Thanks,

Gordon

I just found this article which states that both Mac and PC are indeed doing the first/core/software unfold of the MQA file.  Where did you hear it is Windows only.  I believe that to be incorrect.

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

I have been using the Tidal App on my MacBook and I am getting the dark purple MQA color on my DFR.  Are you sure it is only TIDAL on Windows?

 

25 minutes ago, Wavelength said:

 

For now the Tidal desktop for Windows is the only app. I think that Amara has said it will release next month it's products for Windows and MAC. I know of another product which is a couple months out that will have this support as well.

 

There of course will be more playback options available. If you want the app your currently using to get MQA support then I would ask them to look into it.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

 

The Tidal app on the Mac most certainly does the first unfold.

 

I've run it USB direct to an Ayre Codex, and had the DAC confirm the sample rate it was seeing to be 2x the stream.

 

More recently, I've upgraded my DF Black, and had it display purple for Masters files through the Tidal app.

[miguelito]

33 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

I have been using the Tidal App on my MacBook and I am getting the dark purple MQA color on my DFR.  Are you sure it is only TIDAL on Windows?

I meant to say on mac you can either use the TIDAL native app or Audirvana. Audirvana does not have a Windows version, so on Windows you can only use the TIDAL app.

[citsur86]

Just now, miguelito said:

I meant on mac you can either use the TIDAL native app or Audirvana. Audirvana does not have a Windows version, so on Windows you can only use the TIDAL app.

Ohhhhh sorry for the misunderstanding then.  Whew - back to the mac!

[rickca]

34 minutes ago, miguelito said:

What exactly is the BAD ref 2 going to do? Rendering? A quick google search didn't render anything clear.

 

Miguelito, the 2nd paragraph of my earlier post is a direct quote from a Berkeley press release, not my opinion.  See https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30786-berkeley-audio-design-adds-mqa-rendering-to-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/

 

[abrxx]

9 minutes ago, Wavelength said:

 

9 minutes ago, Wavelength said:

 

First DragonFly's max sample rate is 96KHz. So the data going to the dac cannot exceed that. Others here will say they know what goes on here, but I will say I don't. I don't know what the application does in the case of sample rates above the 96K threshold of the dac. Sure I could guess as they do, but I would rather not mislead you.

 

If the MQA LED goes Purple then you know your getting the best possible results from the file you are playing.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

 

Sorry, I didn't fully understand your answer. I think we all understand that when Tidal is playing an MQA track, the datastream being sent to the MQA renderer (in this case the Dragonfly) is sent at either 88.2 or 96 kHz, that is, the first unfold has been done. You stated that the next fold (if required) is done by the micro controller, which takes us to 192Khz. I'm simply asking if the original track was at 384kHz, does your code do the final unfold from 192 to 384? In all cases I understand that actual data going into the DAC is at a folded rate of 88.2 or 96Hz. 

 

Thanks,

Alastair

[miguelito]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

Miguelito, the 2nd paragraph of my earlier post is a direct quote from a Berkeley press release, not my opinion.  See https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30786-berkeley-audio-design-adds-mqa-rendering-to-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/

Ok got it. It is a bit unclear from this whether the BAD will be a renderer or full MQA decoder.

[rickca]

3 minutes ago, miguelito said:

Ok got it. It is a bit unclear from this whether the BAD will be a renderer or full MQA decoder.

I kind of agree.  Chris has one of these DACs so maybe he can clarify it for us when the code is released.

[mansr]

17 minutes ago, abrxx said:

What if the track's original sample rate was > 192 Khz?

 

Does the DragonFly do a third unfold?

The "core" decode/unfold done in software (Tidal, Audirvana) doubles the sample rate to 88.2/96 kHz. Rendering then upsamples this another 2x or 4x depending on the original rate and the capability of the DAC. There is never a third step.

[miguelito]

2 minutes ago, abrxx said:

Sorry, I didn't fully understand your answer. I think we all understand that when Tidal is playing an MQA track, the datastream being sent to the MQA renderer (in this case the Dragonfly) is sent at either 88.2 or 96 kHz, that is, the first unfold has been done.

Correct.

 

2 minutes ago, abrxx said:

You stated that the next fold (if required) is done by the micro controller, which takes us to 192Khz. I'm simply asking if the original track was at 384kHz, does your code do the final unfold from 192 to 384? In all cases I understand that actual data going into the DAC is at a folded rate of 88.2 or 96Hz. 

What the microcontroller seems to be doing it simply interpreting the embedded information in the unfolded PCM stream that includes configuration instructions for the ESS DAC to set filters and upsample to a particular rate. The ESS DAC is capable of upsampling all the way to 384KHz. What upsampling rate is used as well as the filter to be used is determined by the MQA info embedded in the unfolded PCM stream.

[abrxx]

1 minute ago, miguelito said:

Correct.

 

What the microcontroller seems to be doing it simply interpreting the embedded information in the unfolded PCM stream that includes configuration instructions for the ESS DAC to set filters and upsample to a particular rate. The ESS DAC is capable of upsampling all the way to 384KHz. What upsampling rate is used as well as the filter to be used is determined by the MQA info embedded in the unfolded PCM stream.

 

Got it, thanks!

[abrxx]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

The "core" decode/unfold done in software (Tidal, Audirvana) doubles the sample rate to 88.2/96 kHz. Rendering then upsamples this another 2x or 4x depending on the original rate and the capability of the DAC. There is never a third step.

 

Sure. I'm just using the official MQA speak, or at least I thought I was!

[citsur86]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

The "core" decode/unfold done in software (Tidal, Audirvana) doubles the sample rate to 88.2/96 kHz. Rendering then upsamples this another 2x or 4x depending on the original rate and the capability of the DAC. There is never a third step.

So if you are using the Dragonfly Red or Black and having Tidal do the "core" unfold, and it sends the Dragonfly 96KHz, then what was the point of the update to the Dragonfly to make it able to do the second unfold if it can only go up to 96KHz?  

[miguelito]

4 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

So if you are using the Dragonfly Red or Black and having Tidal do the "core" unfold, and it sends the Dragonfly 96KHz, then what was the point of the update to the Dragonfly to make it able to do the second unfold if it can only go up to 96KHz?  

The update enabled the microcontroller in the DF to interpret the embedded MQA info in that unfolded stream. That info will tell the ESS DAC in the DF to upsample to a certain rate and to set particular filters. Before the update, this info was missed so whatever upsampling and filters where used where unrelated to the MQA information.

 

You also get a purple light with the update giving you the (misguided?) comfort of an MQA file being rendered.

[revand]

14 minutes ago, Wavelength said:

 

First DragonFly's max sample rate is 96KHz. So the data going to the dac cannot exceed that. Others here will say they know what goes on here, but I will say I don't. I don't know what the application does in the case of sample rates above the 96K threshold of the dac. Sure I could guess as they do, but I would rather not mislead you.

 

If the MQA LED goes Purple then you know your getting the best possible results from the file you are playing.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

 

Does this mean that the Dragonfly Red/Black at making the second unfold of the music file already unfolded by the desktop app or Audirvana Plus 3 to 24bit/88.2 or 24bit/96 kHz (at "rendering") cannot provide the resolution of the original master?

[citsur86]

1 minute ago, miguelito said:

The update enabled the microcontroller in the DF to interpret the embedded MQA info in that unfolded stream. That info will tell the ESS DAC in the DF to upsample to a certain rate and to set particular filters. Before the update, this info was missed so whatever upsampling and filters where used where unrelated to the MQA information.

Got it, thanks.  So it is now able to interpret the info from the core unfolded MQA file.  The DFs can't play higher than 96KHz, but they can upsample to a certain rate?  Does this mean if the file within the initial MQA is "unfoldable" to 384KHz, DFs will upsample to that?  And what does that actually mean?

[plissken]

Is the unfolding a play on ASR?

[Wavelength]

21 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

I just found this article which states that both Mac and PC are indeed doing the first/core/software unfold of the MQA file.  Where did you hear it is Windows only.  I believe that to be incorrect.

 

Sorry but I did not say it was Windows only. MAC has both Tidal and Audirvana which I have stated a number of times.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

[citsur86]

Just now, Wavelength said:

 

Sorry but I did not say it was Windows only. MAC has both Tidal and Audirvana which I have stated a number of times.

 

Thanks,

Gordon

Understood - it was my misunderstanding. I apologize.  Just happy to confirm the Mac Tidal App is indeed doing the same thing as the PC Tidal app since I prefer to use my Mac.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

So if you are using the Dragonfly Red or Black and having Tidal do the "core" unfold, and it sends the Dragonfly 96KHz, then what was the point of the update to the Dragonfly to make it able to do the second unfold if it can only go up to 96KHz?  

The USB interface is limited to 96 kHz. Subsequent upsampling is done either by the microcontroller (which I doubt it has the CPU power for) or by the DAC chip itself using filter parameters specified by the MQA metadata.

2 minutes ago, citsur86 said:

Got it, thanks.  So it is now able to interpret the info from the core unfolded MQA file.  The DFs can't play higher than 96KHz, but they can upsample to a certain rate?  Does this mean if the file within the initial MQA is "unfoldable" to 384KHz, DFs will upsample to that?  And what does that actually mean?

Whatever the original sample rate, the MQA file contains true audio data only up to 48 kHz (and the 24-48 kHz band is heavily compressed). Anything above that is discarded at the encoding stage, and no amount of hand-waving can bring it back.