Any experiences with RME ADI-2 Pro DAC?

[asdf1000]

On 1/12/2017 at 8:33 PM, Miska said:

If you use PCM input, just use the 705.6/768k input rate (and TPDF or Gauss1 dither) and your favorite filter.

 

Hi Jussi, the HQP manual states:

 

"Gauss1 - Gaussian Probability Density Function. High quality flat frequency dither recommended for rates at or below 96 kHz where noise-shaping is not suitable."

 

So is Gauss1 actually ok for 705/768 HQP PCM up-sampling?

 

[Miska]

12 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Hi Jussi, the HQP manual states:

 

"Gauss1 - Gaussian Probability Density Function. High quality flat frequency dither recommended for rates at or below 96 kHz where noise-shaping is not suitable."

 

So is Gauss1 actually ok for 705/768 HQP PCM up-sampling?

 

Yes, it is just flat dither like TPDF. All those can be always used at higher rates too. Flat dithers can be used at any rate. Shaped dithers are only good at higher rates where there is enough ultrasonic space where to "park" the noise moved away from lower frequencies.

 

Theoretically, let's say we move 20 dB of noise from 0 - 20 kHz region up to 20 - 60 kHz region, the noise increases 10 dB in that twice as wide ultrasonic band while it drops 20 dB in the base band region.

 

There are noise shapers that shovel the noise within the base band (used for RedBook mastering, etc), but I'm not so huge fan of those.

 

When output is 32-bit, there's so much headroom already compared to analog world that using noise shaping doesn't make much sense. Although it is of course still possible to use.

 

[Tannoymike]

Have just bought RME ADI-2 Dac and tried to install the windows driver (windows version 10 64bit 1809) but windows refuses to install driver instead it installs the Microsoft version, and when I try to update driver from Device Manager each time it says the Best Driver is already installed, I've also tried uninstalling this driver and still it updates to the Microsoft driver. AS the RME driver won't install I don't get the option of ASIO for DSD and I can't get the new firmware to install as it requires the latest RME driver. Can anyone HELP!!! as I am tearing my hair out. All my previous dacs had no problems installing their own drivers before.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Tannoymike said:

Have just bought RME ADI-2 Dac and tried to install the windows driver (windows version 10 64bit 1809) but windows refuses to install driver instead it installs the Microsoft version, and when I try to update driver from Device Manager each time it says the Best Driver is already installed, I've also tried uninstalling this driver and still it updates to the Microsoft driver. AS the RME driver won't install I don't get the option of ASIO for DSD and I can't get the new firmware to install as it requires the latest RME driver. Can anyone HELP!!! as I am tearing my hair out. All my previous dacs had no problems installing their own drivers before.

 

Have you tried installing the driver before plugging in the DAC's USB cable? Many driver installers require this, otherwise the Windows' own driver is attempting to take over...

 

You don't need ASIO for DSD though, the DAC uses DoP in any case and that's why it is fully capable on all platforms without a special driver. But as you said, you'll need it's own driver to do firmware updates and it is anyway better that way than with the not so great Microsoft driver.

 

[Tannoymike]

Yes I did try to install the driver before connecting the dac. I ran the downloaded windows driver file and ran it, I didn't see much during this operation apart from a couple of flashes on the screen, virtually impossible to see and that was it. I looked in both program folders for RME but couldn't see anything like nothing was installed/ I tried the installation several times with the same result and still no RME folder. Just lost now. My previous Mytek, Teac and Oppo drivers installed with no issues at all.

[Kal Rubinson]

38 minutes ago, Tannoymike said:

Yes I did try to install the driver before connecting the dac. I ran the downloaded windows driver file and ran it, I didn't see much during this operation apart from a couple of flashes on the screen, virtually impossible to see and that was it. I looked in both program folders for RME but couldn't see anything like nothing was installed/ I tried the installation several times with the same result and still no RME folder. Just lost now. My previous Mytek, Teac and Oppo drivers installed with no issues at all.

Have you rebooted the system to insure that the new driver is loaded?

[Tannoymike]

Yes rebooted to no effect. The driver file after extracting and running the file inside just doesn't seem to install as I can't find any RME folder in the Program folders is this normal? This is the driver I downloaded driver_madiface_win_09680.zip I assume this is the correct one.

[AudioDoctor]

Have you contacted RME to see what they say?

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Tannoymike said:

Yes rebooted to no effect. The driver file after extracting and running the file inside just doesn't seem to install as I can't find any RME folder in the Program folders is this normal? This is the driver I downloaded driver_madiface_win_09680.zip I assume this is the correct one.

 

Does it appear under Control Panel / Programs & Features? I think it creates something for the system tray control panel application under Progam Files.

 

[Tannoymike]

I have just emailed RME for their help.

The dac shows up under the driver manager but only with the microsoft driver, I can't find any other folder or feature relating to RME which again leads me to think that the driver just does not install when I run it (even under administrator rights). Everything installs ok and works fine when used on my Linux Mint/Deadbeef  setup so unit must be ok. These problems are a mystery to me lets hope this Forum or RME Support come up with a solution or I will have to sell it.

[Miska]

Behavior of Windows is always a bit of mystery...

 

Almost all my Windows 10 installations now have some sort of persistent problem. Two have self-corrupted themselves to point of not being repairable (and then I've permanently "repaired" those by replacing the OS with Linux).

 

[Miska]

@Tannoymike please let us know when the problem has been solved what was it and how it got solved. This may be helpful for other people if they end up with same problem...

 

[beerandmusic]

unplug eveything, remove the microsoft driver, then reinstall driver and then plug in.

 

[Tannoymike]

The problem seems to be more with the RME driver as it just doesn't seem to install, I only get the first two installation  box, first the run and second do you want to install after that all I get are couple of flashes across the screen and nothing else. I've  checked everywhere in the program files, programs in the lower margin of the desktop, the popup from the bottom left corner showing the programs' CCleaner uninstall list of programs in the Tools section and I see no evidence of any RME related items..I've uninstalled the Microsoft driver, rebooted, and attempted to install the RME driver, whatever I do I see the results each time. I've even extracted the driver exe file to see whats in there nothing that I can see being useful. In the windows driver manager I did see another ref to the RME but it informed me there was no driver istalled so I tried manually to update it pointing it to my RME driver location but it was looking for a inf extension and there is nothing with this in the RME driver and it reported no suitable file present. I wouldn't worry too much if  I had the use of asio in the windows driver and also the need for the latest RME driver requirement  to upgrade the firmware.

[One and a half]

@Tannoymike, sometimes the USB driver settings are screwed up by various conflicting settings and the more installs occur the more there are of the same lousy settings. If you google usbdeview, this free app lists all the USB devices connected to the pc , works in Windows 10. 

Multiple registry items can be deleted so you can start again fresh.

 

if the RME HDSPE drivers are any guide, they disable any other sound device, which is not pleasant. In your case the Windows UAC driver tries to replace the rme ones. Look, bit of a long shot, but remove the rme USB registry settings with usbdeview, plug in the rme, let windows install drivers for it, then install the rme drivers on top.

by all means work with rme, but this could be a long drawn out affair.

 

https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usb_devices_view.html

[Tannoymike]

Update on my problems, I have just  installed the RME driver on another windows 10 computer all up and running including asio, and also updated the firmware. So the problems outlined in my earlier replies seem to be associated with that particular computer only, not sure why this occurs as yet. The dac when installed on my other windows computer certainly sounds very good using JRiver through my Beyer headphones.

[asdf1000]

On 1/11/2017 at 5:30 AM, Miska said:

I'm using mine configured to Direct DSD mode with 150 kHz analog filter (disables primary headphone output and volume control is disabled), sending DSD256 there.

 

Hi Jussi,

 

I read the infamous Andreas Koch article which says with DSD64 the noise shaping curve starts at ~20 KHz, DSD128 ~40kHz and DSD256 ~80kHz.

 

https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/raising-the-sample-rate-of-dsd-is-there-a-sweet-spot/

 

So with the 150kHz analogue filter option of the RME DAC, does this mean there is a range of ~ 80kHz to 150kHz that is not analogue filtered at all?

 

I see there is a 50 kHz option but I'm guessing you tried it and don't like the sound of it - some higher res music content being filtered/affected?

 

I'm guessing ideally, you'd like the RME to have a 70kHz or 80kHz analogue filter option?

 

Cheers!

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

I read the infamous Andreas Koch article which says with DSD64 the noise shaping curve starts at ~20 KHz, DSD128 ~40kHz and DSD256 ~80kHz.

 

https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/raising-the-sample-rate-of-dsd-is-there-a-sweet-spot/

 

So with the 150kHz analogue filter option of the RME DAC, does this mean there is a range of ~ 80kHz to 150kHz that is not analogue filtered at all?

 

I see there is a 50 kHz option but I'm guessing you tried it and don't like the sound of it - some higher res music content being filtered/affected?

 

You can make that practically 25, 50 and 100 kHz.

 

Since the noise doesn't start suddenly, but has increasing slope, DSD converters usually don't begin to cut early. SACD (DSD64) by the spec starts cutting at 50 kHz. Also most "PCM" ADC chips operate like DSD128, so if you look at noise floor of 192k content, commonly you can notice increasing noise slope above 50 kHz.

 

Also note that the 50/150 kHz filter setting applies only to the AKM DAC chip's D/A conversion stage (switched capacitor filter), not to the final analog reconstruction filter that follows the DAC chip! Usually this final filter has corner frequency around 100 kHz.

 

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

You can make that practically 25, 50 and 100 kHz.

 

Since the noise doesn't start suddenly, but has increasing slope, DSD converters usually don't begin to cut early. SACD (DSD64) by the spec starts cutting at 50 kHz. Also most "PCM" ADC chips operate like DSD128, so if you look at noise floor of 192k content, commonly you can notice increasing noise slope above 50 kHz.

 

Also note that the 50/150 kHz filter setting applies only to the AKM DAC chip's D/A conversion stage (switched capacitor filter), not to the final analog reconstruction filter that follows the DAC chip! Usually this final filter has corner frequency around 100 kHz.

 

 

All noted with thanks!

 

So for you it's really the final 100kHz analogue filter that you care about with your RME DAC and that's why you select the 150kHZ AKM DAC chip's filter with HQP DSD256 up-sampling?

 

In other words, you choose the 150khz filter so that the DAC chips switched capacitor filter does the least 'stuff' with the DSD256 passing through?

 

 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

So for you it's really the final 100kHz analogue filter that you care about with your RME DAC and that's why you select the 150kHZ AKM DAC chip's filter with HQP DSD256 up-sampling?

 

In other words, you choose the 150khz filter so that the DAC chips switched capacitor filter does the least 'stuff' with the DSD256 passing through?

 

Well, either selection is fine, most of the noise is above the corner point anyway. If one is more worried about remaining ultrasonic noise levels can select the 50k setting. With either setting, level of ultrasonic noise that comes out is lower than with PCM inputs at or below 384k. With 705.6/768k PCM inputs the level is roughly same. I would say that it is unlikely to hear much difference between the 50/150k settings and you can safely keep it at 50k too. If I listen very closely and switch between the settings, I believe I hear a little bit more air at 150k setting. But the difference is very small.

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

Well, either selection is fine, most of the noise is above the corner point anyway. If one is more worried about remaining ultrasonic noise levels can select the 50k setting. With either setting, level of ultrasonic noise that comes out is lower than with PCM inputs at or below 384k. With 705.6/768k PCM inputs the level is roughly same. I would say that it is unlikely to hear much difference between the 50/150k settings and you can safely keep it at 50k too. If I listen very closely and switch between the settings, I believe I hear a little bit more air at 150k setting. But the difference is very small.

 

 

Thanks Jussi!

 

Does the "DSD Direct" function of the RME DAC enable the path circled in red below? 

 

Or does "DSD Direct" only disable volume control but it still goes through the "DATT Soft Module" and "DS Modulator" path?

 

[Miska]

16 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Thanks Jussi!

 

Does the "DSD Direct" function of the RME DAC enable the path circled in red below? 

 

Or does "DSD Direct" only disable volume control but it still goes through the "DATT Soft Module" and "DS Modulator" path?

 

 

DSD Direct is precisely that bit. And as you can see it goes straight to the switched capacitor filter. "DATT" (Digital ATTenuator) is the volume control... Output of the DAC looks quite different with the DSD Direct on/off. That also confirmed that TEAC NT-503 runs the same chip in DSD Direct mode. When DSD Direct mode is off, there's no 50/150 kHz filter choice, which was sort of indication for the TEAC that it was using DSD Direct mode already before I confirmed it other way too.

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, Miska said:

Output of the DAC looks quite different with the DSD Direct on/off.

 

Output of the DAC is even different with volume at maximum with DSD Direct is "off"?

 

If so, is that because even with no volume control used (volume at max), the signal goes through a more complex path?

 

[Miska]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

Output of the DAC is even different with volume at maximum with DSD Direct is "off"?

 

If so, is that because even with no volume control used (volume at max), the signal goes through a more complex path?

 

Yes, because with DSD Direct off, it goes through digital filter and remodulation scheme.

 

With DSD Direct enabled, you also get constant -3.5 dB volume drop. Partially reason being DSD spec and partially the chip's analog section implementation. A bit similar to different volume drops with different analog filters you get on BB/TI chips (on iFi DACs and TEAC UD-501 for example). To match levels, I keep the PCM volume setting at -3.5 dB too.

 

Note that you cannot use ADI-2's headphone outputs in DSD Direct mode due the lack of volume control. On ADI-2 Pro, the other DAC chip for the other headphone output cannot be switched to DSD Direct mode, so it is always available, but never in DSD Direct mode. Only the chip that is coupled to analog outputs and one of the headphone outputs can be switched to DSD Direct mode (which then mutes that headphone out).

 

[asdf1000]

14 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, because with DSD Direct off, it goes through digital filter and remodulation scheme.

 

With DSD Direct enabled, you also get constant -3.5 dB volume drop. Partially reason being DSD spec and partially the chip's analog section implementation. A bit similar to different volume drops with different analog filters you get on BB/TI chips (on iFi DACs and TEAC UD-501 for example). To match levels, I keep the PCM volume setting at -3.5 dB too.

 

Note that you cannot use ADI-2's headphone outputs in DSD Direct mode due the lack of volume control. On ADI-2 Pro, the other DAC chip for the other headphone output cannot be switched to DSD Direct mode, so it is always available, but never in DSD Direct mode. Only the chip that is coupled to analog outputs and one of the headphone outputs can be switched to DSD Direct mode (which then mutes that headphone out).

 

 

Nice thanks.

 

How is the 8kHz packet noise with this DAC's USB input in your measurements? Is there no difference whether you connect to noisy PC (non DAC-UP port) and your microRendu for example?