Any experiences with RME ADI-2 Pro DAC?

[Miska]

Yes, I have it and I'm very happy with it. Here's a post I wrote about it in another thread:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/recommend-analogue-digital-converter-live-recordings-or-digitizing-sound-stored-analogue-media-such-records-or-tape-31143/#post620596

[Miska]

That device lists a slew rate of 20 V/uS. Which sucks.

 

Lynn Olson on slew rate here:

 

dsd

 

It is not that simple, because the D/A converter chip has internal analog filter for the output cutting at either 50 or 150 kHz...

 

20 V/µs is enough to slew the amp 3V at 150 kHz...

 

There's huge number of audio devices on the market that use NE5532 op-amps that have 9V/µs slew rate.

 

For analog filter applications what matters is the GBW (gain-bandwidth product).

[Miska]

User experience is very different from RME Fireface series, this device is much simpler, there is no microphone preamp, no TotalMix mixer, it has practically one line level stereo input and one stereo output and it works just ADC + DAC.

 

But it has features like dual-DAC chip balanced headphone amp mode. Headphone crossfeed, configurable Eq/notch filters and such.

 

Some sort of IIR short delay sharp roll off antialiasing LPF is the factory default settings of DAC and if you like more conventional linear phase sharp roll off FIR filter you can change from the menu.

 

I'm using mine configured to Direct DSD mode with 150 kHz analog filter (disables primary headphone output and volume control is disabled), sending DSD256 there. I didn't even try any PCM yet and I don't even care that much....

 

In Windows platform, 705.6kHz and 768kHz is available only via ASIO because according to the manual, WASAPI of current version Windows supports up to 384kHz. When device sample rate set to 705.6kHz or 768kHz, WASAPI endpoint device of ADI-2 Pro disappears from the audio rendering/capturing device list

 

It seems this device supports DoP DSD recording using WASAPI. I think this is very rare feature. Not testing it yet

 

Nice thing is that it works DSD256 with DoP, in and out on Linux, Mac and Windows without hassle...

 

It being a nice DAC was kind of positive surprise. I anyway purchased it for recording purposes!

[Miska]

That is unfortunate for audiophiles that have these low slew rate devices in their system. But it is particularly sad for me because they are in recording studios all across the world.

 

Personally, after some exposure, I wouldn't touch one of these low slew rate class AB op-amp based devices with a 10 foot pole. Well, ok, as a speaker measurement system they are fine. I also agree as recording devices they can be good.

 

Well, first of all you don't seem to know what is inside, you just made a guess. Can you somehow objectively demonstrate that there is a performance problem?

 

If my measurements and my ears both say that a device works well, then it is a good device to me, regardless what particular device is inside. Slew rate is just one of the many parameters and what parameters to look at always depends on the particular application.

 

But each to their own.

[Miska]

This device is IMO very interesting, but I found some things which are not quite optimal. The headphone output and DSP (like crossfeed) is disabled in the direct DSD mode (DoP). I was very curious when I read that in the manual, considering that this device otherwise provides strong support for listening on headphones. Sadly only for PCM source signal.

 

Reason the primary headphone output is disabled when Direct DSD mode is enabled is that the volume control is the digital volume control on the AKM chip. The second headphone output is always active because it doesn't ever go into Direct DSD mode - it has it's own separate DAC chip.

 

Rest of the DSP (cross-feed, eq) is done on the FPGA and capabilities depend on the input sampling rate, there are some limitations for the 16x rates.

 

For me, this is not a problem, I can do necessary DSP on HQPlayer and I use external headphone amplifier. If one uses the DAC just for PCM inputs of normal downloads/streaming, then there are no limitations.

 

The second drawback is only DoP support (the so called native DSD mode is not supported). That's no real issue on DSD256 bitrate, but still one could await more. We know about possible troubles which can happen with DoP (transitions between tracks, PCM <-> DSD switching), native DSD is better solution.

 

They emphasize that they currently don't support native DSD on ASIO or on the device. So it may come with driver/firmware update. I already updated the firmware once...

 

On the other side, the A/D part of this device seems to be very interesting. It can be very suitable not only for recording, but also for doing measurements.

 

Yes, that's the main reason I got it. But of course I tried it first as a DAC and now it sits on my desk connected to my Linux workstation where I do most of the software development (currently two DACs on this one, the RME and iFi iDSD Micro Black Label). Fostex HP-A8C working as analog headphone amp for the RME.

 

So ... for me this device seems to be very interesting and I trust all who write how good it sounds, but ... it looks like a little bit unfinished in the DSD part. It seems the designers are not big DSD fans, they did less than it could be done with the hardware.

 

I don't get that kind of feeling. They just don't have the oomph on the FPGA to do DSP on DSD (without some PCM decimation). They still have digital level monitoring and such in there for DSD too. I'm happy that they provide the DAC chip functionality straight without obfuscating/obscuring it. And tell straight exactly what goes on, where and how. I really love the transparency and amount of information they provide. The manual is very good, with measurement results and all.

 

Note! This is their first DSD product, and I'd say that they have got a very good start!

[Miska]

I will wait for the multi-channel version. Definately is a RME interface for audiophiles. Most pro applications want mic pres and more than 2 channels.

 

Sure it is more audiophile and mastering-style device.

 

OTOH, their ADI-series has always been plain A/D/A converters without mic-pre's, because lot of studios have mic preamps either in their mixing console or use separate ones. For example the ADI-8 DS Mk III is also just plain converter. If you want to connect mixing console to multi-track recorder, then plain converter is more typical.

 

Then they have separate mic A/D's:

RME: Products - MIC Preamps

 

It will interesting to see how well it sells to this market. Lots of good competition at around this price point.

 

I'd be very happy to hear about all the other competition with 705.6/768k PCM and DSD256 recording. So far I haven't found other than Merging Hapi/Horus and even those don't reach such PCM speeds, only DXD.

[Miska]

Miska, how it sounds with AK4490 DAC chip? Vs. PCM1795 for example?

 

When you run both with DSD256 the differences are smaller than with PCM. If I would generalize overall for PCM inputs, TI-BB/Wolfson chips sound a bit warmer and smoother, while AKM is a bit brighter, but not as bright as Sabre/Cirrus Logic. With DSD the differences become quite a bit smaller.

 

As always, full DACs have differences based on implementation of their analog stages too so it's a whole package that matters.

[Miska]

Miska, what is your proposing settings to best quality sound in HQPlayer?

 

If you use PCM input, just use the 705.6/768k input rate (and TPDF or Gauss1 dither) and your favorite filter. The digital filter selection at the DAC doesn't matter because at these rates it runs with the digital filter bypassed.

 

For DSD256 inputs, enable the Direct DSD mode and set the DSD analog filter to 150 kHz. Your choice of filter and modulator. I use poly-sinc-short-mp and ASDM7, but I know some people like DSD7. However, this will mute the PH1/2 output because volume control disappears. PH3/4 will remain active because the DAC chip driving it cannot be switched to Direct DSD mode. So you'll need an external headphone amplifier. I'm using Fostex HP-A8C for the purpose, but I'm planning to get a Schiit Ragnarok (I need more inputs than one analog set)...

[Miska]

I also wanted to comment a bit on the sound 16x PCM vs DSD256 inputs when listened in the specified setup with Sennheiser HD-800 headphones. When I switch to DSD256 the sound feels like moving more out of the head with more space around. With PCM the sound is more closed in. Both still sound very good, this was the biggest change I noticed when switching between the formats.

[Miska]

Can i please the screenshot your settings? I am little confuse and don't know how to set this write

thanx

 

Here are my current settings...

 

ADI-2:

 

HQPlayer:

[Miska]

Thanks, another question :-). How you connect ADI-2 Pro with Fostex? One of headphone output in front of device? I have a Samson Resolv RXA5 monitor active and i wonder how to connect them and Transrotor Headphone Amp with my HD800s in the same time than quick change the signal in dac?

 

From the unbalanced outputs in the rear to the Fostex line input. I think Fostex also passes through the analog in to analog out with the front panel switch (with or without volume control), although I don't remember checking that. I have set the ADI-2 reference level to +13 dBu. Once I get the Schiit Ragnarok, I can use the balanced connections and can also get pre-amp output from the Ragnarok...

[Miska]

Does it have volume control for line out?

 

Yes...

 

Does it work in Direct DSD mode?

 

No, because the volume control it has is the digital volume control of the DAC chip.

 

In Linux does it support non-DoP DSD256?

 

At the moment it doesn't support non-DoP DSD anywhere. But with DoP it works up to DSD256 (up to 48k x256).

[Miska]

Did you get the multi channel RME and is it possible to use with JRiver zones?

 

No multichannel equivalent of ADI-2 Pro exists yet, AFAIK.

 

And never touched JRiver, and not planning to...

[Miska]

Silly me and I am embarrassed with my oversight. I apologize. Is it possible with HQ Player and multi DAC for multiple zones?

 

Only if you run multiple instances of HQPlayer. Having multiple DACs means having multiple clocks and that means multiple timing sources... Unless someone makes a studio-type setup with one separate master clock and using word clock or 10 MHz clock sync. But that kind of setup is quite untypical for home use, so it is not supported by HQPlayer. Like something from Antelope's selection:

Master Clocks | Antelope Audio

[Miska]

What usb receiver does RME use?

 

I think it's their own on the same FPGA as rest of the stuff.

 

On Windows it uses same driver as MADIface and UFX+. Since MADIface XT can do 394 channels on USB3, it is very likely not the lightweight kind of stuff most audiophile devices use.

 

Is it possible that it's going to support DSD native in the near future?

 

Yes, they've hinted towards such possibility in the manual... I'm not sure if it's just limitation of the ASIO driver, firmware or both.

[Miska]

On RME drivers, the HDPSeAIO set of drivers, totally suppresses any other audio device, even the built in motherboard sound card, just gone. On uninstall of the TotalMix software and driver software, there's toxicity spread over the registry. This creates instability when installing other audio devices, Mutec, Grace Design, even an Intona plays up. I had to wipe the disc clean and fresh install Windows and no problems since. Not going near any RME unless I know its behaviour is like malware to other audio devices.

 

First time I hear about such behavior, I've been using the older Digi96 interfaces in the past and then Fireface later.

 

Does the ADI-2 PRO have the same toxic effect??

 

At least I didn't notice yet any adverse effects on my Win10 machine. But I've used it only to update the ADI-2 Pro firmware.

 

But anyway I primarily use Linux... On Linux or Mac you don't need to install any extra drivers, the OS-provided UAC2 driver is enough.

[Miska]

Does it have a remote? Or is it possible to add one?

 

No, only front panel operation...

[Miska]

In both scenarios you need ADC and I need to know how RME ADI 2.0 Pro stands against the competition. I have TC Impact Twin and think about upgrading ADC.

 

Depends on what format you want to do. There are not too many options on the market with DSD256 and PCM 768/32 ADC... Especially in this price category.

[Miska]

3 hours ago, jtwrace said:

This is confusing to me too:

 

Even more extreme is DSD Direct. If activated (SETUP, Options, Device Mode), the DSD signal is not converted to PCM within the DAC, therefore there is no volume control at all – except for the analog reference levels, which can be used to set the coarse output level/volume.

 

Just curious, what is the confusing part? This is the way I use it, running it as plain DAC at DSD256. At the moment I'm using Fostex HP-A8C as analog headphone amplifier between the ADI-2 Pro and my Sennheiser HD-800 headphones. Works very well, but I'm planning to try iFi Pro iCAN as an alternative headphone amplifier.

 

Of course I can still also use volume control in HQPlayer for both PCM and DSD sources, if I like to.

 

In addition, it's a great DSD256 capable ADC too! If you like DAC to do plenty of DSP, it can do that, or if you like DAC not to do DSP things, it can do that for you too! It's all up to your preferences.

 

P.S. Saying that you cannot do DSP on 1-bit DSD is equivalent of saying you cannot do DSP on 32-bit PCM. If you add two 32-bit PCM values together, result is 33-bit. If you multiply 32-bit PCM values the result is 64-bit. At some point you need to get back to the 32-bit PCM value...

 

[Miska]

Just now, jtwrace said:

Can I use Roon to control the volume with an sMS~200 attached without any loss?

 

You need to ask Roon, I only know about HQPlayer.

 

[Miska]

31 minutes ago, jtwrace said:

Doesn’t HQP work with roon, worst case?

 

Yes it does work and can do DSP as necessary. I just output DSD256 to ADI-2 Pro regardless of source.

 

32 minutes ago, jtwrace said:

Do you really expect the ifi to be even close to the same league?

 

In the same league as the Fostex or? I think so, Pro iCAN is hopefully pretty good headphone amp for about 2k€.

 

One challenge for my use case at the moment with Fostex is that it has only one pair of analog inputs and I'd need more.

[Miska]

On 11/3/2017 at 5:20 AM, jtwrace said:

Same league as the RME.  I can't imagine the IFI is close to the RME given their take on measurements and all the fluff that IFI throws around.  The RME seems to be the typical German made product with extreme engineering behind it.  

 

But in what respect? Do you expect headphone amp in 1600€ ADC/DAC to be better than a separate headphone amp without any ADC/DAC at 2000€?

 

In any case, I cannot use the RME's headphone amp because I want to use Direct DSD mode. And it doesn't have multiple analog inputs to the headphone amp for connecting multiple DACs. So far I've been using the Fostex HP-A8C as analog headphone amp for the RME with good results, but it has only one pair of unbalanced analog inputs. While the iFi has balanced inputs.

 

So I kind of fail to see how the two devices are related. One device that is fully analog, only headphone amp, with multiple analog inputs costing about 2000€ (no DAC/ADC/etc). The other one is primarily ADC/DAC that happens to have a headphone output too.

 

From your previous message I understood you thought the Fostex is better headphone amp than the iFi. I don't know yet. But I will likely find out. In any case the Fostex unfortunately doesn't have enough inputs for me, although it sounds good. I have all the necessary measurement gear to figure out the actual performance too.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, occamsrazor said:

- does it support USB HID volume controls under Mac OSX? a.k.a. "Device controls" in Roon.

 

I think not...

 

2 hours ago, occamsrazor said:

- Can the 2 x rear analogue outputs be used simultaneously e.g. to drive a power amp with the XLR outputs and a subwoofer via the TRS outputs?

 

I think it should work fine, looking through the window on AE version there seems to be separate output buffers for XLR and TRS outputs.

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, occamsrazor said:

The ADI-2 Pro operates in Class Compliant mode (UAC 2.0), a standard that is natively supported by operating systems like iOS, Mac OS X and Linux.

 

I would have thought id it was UAC 2.0 compliant it would include this functionality.

 

You were asking about HIDC and this is about UAC. These are two different classes!

 

Having UAC compliant mixer elements is another thing.

 

[Miska]

15 minutes ago, occamsrazor said:

My bad... I guess I thought USB HID control functionality was included in the UAC specification. I appreciate your clarification. In any case Matthias on the RME forum has now confirmed that the ADI-2 Pro does not support it. It's a shame, the unit looks really nice.

 

Anyway the volume control is adjusting the DAC chip's digital volume control unit. But you can as well move the volume control to playback software side. Problem solved!

 

I'm anyway using only the Direct DSD mode bypassing the DAC's volume control, so it doesn't really matter for me. I can adjust volume from software or from analog headphone amp.