John Dyson Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, KeenObserver said: This whole MQA thing just astounds me! Most get rich schemes just die when they are exposed for what they are. Look at Bernie Maddoff. Look at Enron. Now look at MQA. It just keeps on going and going. Even after every aspect of it has been debunked and it has been shown to be nothing but a scheme to extract money from the music consumer. Promises had to have been made. No start up scheme continues to lose money for seven years! I agree -- MQA IS a scheme (in a negative sense.) Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 This just strikes me as there are people that think that they have the power to manipulate people into buying anything. There are people that think that they can force the music consumer to bend to their will. And the worst part is that there are people that drink the contaminated brandy. Truly a sad day when there are people that blindly accept going over the cliff. bogi 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 My fable didn't pass the literary test. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post GoldenOne Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 https://goldensound.audio/2021/11/29/tidal-hifi-is-not-lossless/ pkane2001, Confused, bambadoo and 6 others 9 https://youtube.com/goldensound Roon -> HQPlayer -> SMS200 Ultra/SPS500 -> Holo Audio May (Wildism Edition) -> Holo Audio Serene (Wildism Edition) -> Benchmark AHB2 -> Hifiman Susvara Link to comment
Popular Post bogi Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 From that link: Quote – ‘MASTER’ quality setting – Track streamed in MQA. Tidal client or your DAC can do the unfolding depending on setup. MQA is not lossless. – ‘HiFi’ quality setting – Track streamed in what was claimed to be ‘lossless’, but it was actually seemingly just the MQA version without any MQA flagging or metadata, so it would not be unfolded. And is also not lossless. – ‘High/Normal’ – Track streamed in compressed format. Propaganda: "as artist intended". Reality: that's what labels want. Boycott Tidal till we have some freedom. Download lossless content till it is available. troubleahead, botrytis and MikeyFresh 3 i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 Notice in the HiFi tier, it doesn’t scream LOSSLESS. It says HiFi Quality Sound. Seems kind of like Kraft selling Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product that contains very little cheese but tastes somewhat like real cheese. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Singles “Kraft singles do not qualify for the US FDA Pasteurized Processed Cheese[5] labeling. For this reason Kraft labels them Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product to avoid FDA sanctions. They were calling Kraft Singles Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Food until the FDA gave them a warning in December 2002 that the product could not be legally labeled as "Pasteurized Processed Cheese Food" due to the inclusion of milk protein concentrates. Kraft complied with the FDA order by changing the label to the current Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product.[6]” BTO, botrytis, beetlemania and 1 other 2 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Notice in the HiFi tier, it doesn’t scream LOSSLESS. It says HiFi Quality Sound. Seems kind of like Kraft selling Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product that contains very little cheese but tastes somewhat like real cheese. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Singles “Kraft singles do not qualify for the US FDA Pasteurized Processed Cheese[5] labeling. For this reason Kraft labels them Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product to avoid FDA sanctions. They were calling Kraft Singles Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Food until the FDA gave them a warning in December 2002 that the product could not be legally labeled as "Pasteurized Processed Cheese Food" due to the inclusion of milk protein concentrates. Kraft complied with the FDA order by changing the label to the current Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product.[6]” MQA = Processed Music Product, not the real thing....But "the process" has been "authenticated". Or shall I say "pasteurized". bogi, The Computer Audiophile and botrytis 3 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post beetlemania Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Notice in the HiFi tier, it doesn’t scream LOSSLESS. It says HiFi Quality Sound. Seems kind of like Kraft selling Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product that contains very little cheese but tastes somewhat like real cheese. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Singles “Kraft singles do not qualify for the US FDA Pasteurized Processed Cheese[5] labeling. For this reason Kraft labels them Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product to avoid FDA sanctions. They were calling Kraft Singles Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Food until the FDA gave them a warning in December 2002 that the product could not be legally labeled as "Pasteurized Processed Cheese Food" due to the inclusion of milk protein concentrates. Kraft complied with the FDA order by changing the label to the current Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product.[6]” Probably a just a coincidence that the highest tier looks like Velveeta. askat1988, The Computer Audiophile and botrytis 3 Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted November 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2021 2 hours ago, beetlemania said: Probably a just a coincidence that the highest tier looks like Velveeta. Come on Velveeta doesn't say it is cheese, it says cheese food. Don't disparage Velveeta. beetlemania and The Computer Audiophile 2 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Pierre LeMonf Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 On 11/28/2021 at 4:37 PM, The Computer Audiophile said: Could ask him @Jim Austin since he has not replied, I can only assume intellectual dishonesty...a true artiste de conneries... Link to comment
Popular Post Cebolla Posted November 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2021 7 hours ago, GoldenOne said: https://goldensound.audio/2021/11/29/tidal-hifi-is-not-lossless/ That would actually mean that none of the MQA flagging/metadata is actually removed, given that MQA has been detected by Roon's MQA decoder! The MQA decoder requires the correct flagging/metadata to be entirely present - MQA detection by the decoder will fail with just a minimum amount of MQA flagging/metadata corruption. Removing the lower 8 bits of a 24bit MQA file has been demonstrated to still be detected as MQA, since the MQA flagging/metadata is simply not contained there: What's actually being discarded in those 8 bits is the MQA compressed high frequency >22kHz audio. The likely reason why some of the truncated 24bit MQA files fail MQA detection is because those particular MQA files had a 48kHz sample rate - the additional step of TIDAL getting them resampled to the specified HiFi quality 44.1kHz sample rate corrupts their MQA flagging/metadata. See this comment by Peter Lie, Firmware Lead of streamer manufacturer Lumin, posted in the Roon forums: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/new-pricing-for-tidal/177479/61 Quote Downgrading from Master to HiFi Quality will result in Tidal converting the MQA album to 16/44.1. If it was originally a 44.1kHz-multiple 24-bit album, the 8 bits are simply truncated resulting in a 16/44.1 MQA CD. If it was originally a 44.1kHz 16-bit MQA CD such as early Madonna albums, it will remain to be the same MQA CD. If it was originally a 48kHz-multiple album, I believe the MQA signaling is destroyed in the conversion to 16/44.1. From this perspective, the difference between a HiFi non-Plus and HiFi Plus account is that the former will force the downgrade of Master quality to HiFi 16/44.1 quality. botrytis and Archimago 2 We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
Cebolla Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 @GoldenOne, I forgot to add in my post above, that the bit in your article's TLDR regarding this issue is therefore not entirely accurate: TLDR: Tidal ‘HiFi’ is not lossless. It just streams the MQA version of tracks with some metadata removed to prevent most DACs from recognising it as MQA and limits streaming to 16 bit. BTW, the 'Blue light still shines' thread is definitely worth a careful read, especially the conversation with Mans Rullgard - starting with this gem: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38608-truncating-mqa-files-to-16-bits-and-the-blue-light-still-shines/?do=findComment&comment=784981 We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted November 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2021 This is indeed by design, and my research of removing a third of the data in an MQA file (or replacling it with a text string such as "MQA shill") and making the light still shine, just confirms answer c: https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-questions-and-answers-udio-origami-or-folding-questions I find this truncation feature misleading, as my Mytek would still show 352.8 kHz with such manipulated file, as all data to decode the ultrasonics has been stripped from the file, while the DAC is still suggesting to the enduser there's hi-res content: The above is after truncation, not even 16 bit remain (as one bit is taken by the metadata stream) and this lower than redbook resolution is then upsampled to 16 bit 352.8 kHz Without truncation, it will show 24 bit 352.8 kHz and mQa will just recover one octave above redbook and everything else is just not authentic to the original, but upsample noise. Currawong, yahooboy and Cebolla 2 1 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
yahooboy Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 22 hours ago, FredericV said: Without truncation, it will show 24 bit 352.8 kHz and mQa will just recover one octave above redbook and everything else is just not authentic to the original, but upsample noise. A question, You say an octave above redbook. Redbook goes to 20 kHz, an octave above that is at 40 kHz. But if one looks at the measurements where the dreaded "MQA gap" is present it seems that Actual frequency response only goes to approx. 24 kHz. Or have I gotten this wrong? Link to comment
Popular Post JoeWhip Posted December 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 1, 2021 mQa is to lossless what the original chicken McNuggets were to chicken. bogi and The Computer Audiophile 2 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 1 minute ago, JoeWhip said: mQa is to lossless what the original chicken McNuggets were to chicken. What about current McNuggets? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
yahooboy Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, JoeWhip said: mQa is to lossless what the original chicken McNuggets were to chicken. You say chicken, but: https://whiteoutpress.com/whats-in-a-chicken-mcnugget/ Well MQA is also "lossless" Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: What about current McNuggets? I have heard people say they are now made with real chicken unlike the old ones. I wouldn’t know for sure as I would never order them. I stick with the pink slime hamburgers thank you very much! The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, yahooboy said: You say chicken, but: https://whiteoutpress.com/whats-in-a-chicken-mcnugget/ Well MQA is also "lossless" The original McNuggets weren’t chicken meat and mQa isn’t lossless, only perceptionally lossless, whatever than means. yahooboy 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, JoeWhip said: The original McNuggets weren’t chicken meat and mQa isn’t lossless, only perceptionally lossless, whatever than means. McNugget are perceptually chicken. botrytis, Currawong, bogi and 4 others 7 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post JoeWhip Posted December 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 1, 2021 Dat’s a goud won! The Computer Audiophile and yahooboy 2 Link to comment
garrardguy60 Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 On 12/1/2021 at 10:40 AM, yahooboy said: A question, You say an octave above redbook. Redbook goes to 20 kHz, an octave above that is at 40 kHz. But if one looks at the measurements where the dreaded "MQA gap" is present it seems that Actual frequency response only goes to approx. 24 kHz. Or have I gotten this wrong? Strictly speaking, redbook CD goes up to 22.05 kHz, as per Nyquist. By definition, the Nyquist frequency is 22.05 kHz, because that is half the sample rate is 44.1 kHz. yahooboy 1 Link to comment
Popular Post T.S. Gnu Posted December 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 11/29/2021 at 11:59 AM, The Computer Audiophile said: Notice in the HiFi tier, it doesn’t scream LOSSLESS. It says HiFi Quality Sound. Note the encircled weasel words that clearly indicate that it is NOT lossless: 2(ch)x16(bits/ch)x44.1(kHz)=1411kbps…not “up to,” but exactly that. Anything else encoded in addition to music data within that bitstream even at 1411kbs means that the audio is encoded at <16/44.1 bogi, The Computer Audiophile and beetlemania 3 Link to comment
Popular Post T.S. Gnu Posted December 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 11/24/2021 at 1:34 AM, UkPhil said: I see with the new Tidal marketing push they seem to be shifting the onus on quality streaming to the Hifi tier which is non MQA only a few months ago MQA was touted as the way to “hear your music as the artist intended” now it’s just good “ole” 16/44.1, the only issue here is how many files do they have that are not “red book” standard and are being modified from MQA versions as these are the only ones left on the platform. Note the inclusion of the weasel word “quality.” It does NOT say lossless sound; merely that it possesses the quality of lossless sound. It is reminiscent of referring to 320kbps MP3 as CD quality sound. A few complaints to the ASA would make for interesting times for Tidal in the UK. The Computer Audiophile, MikeyFresh and bogi 3 Link to comment
T.S. Gnu Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 11/29/2021 at 4:52 AM, KeenObserver said: No start up scheme continues to lose money for seven years! Cough…Theranos…cough The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
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