Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted June 12, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 Another day at an audio show and another MQA demo failure. Louis Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald You Can’t Take That From Me my notes were why bother, still too much noise. ChrisG, lucretius, BassFace and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment
Popular Post garrardguy60 Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Not sure how many people receive Bob Lefsetz email letter, but check out this text from tonight’s email. He received this from an engineer in the industry. You could replace every instance of Spatial Audio with the letters mQa. https://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2021/06/11/spatial-audio/ "I just want to try and alert you to the potential seismic scam happening with this Atmos roll out. Atmos catalog remixing is being done by the truckload in a handful of Nashville, LA, and NYC rooms right now and has been for a couple of years, and almost none of it is being overseen or approved by the artist or original producer or mixer. And these versions- according to Apple- will be the new standard versions, superseding the original versions, now designated by Apple to the dustbin of history. I have heard some Atmos mixes which were indeed an improvement. However, most are not. And I would like to steer you toward this demo from Apple to get a sense of their mindset https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/introducing-spatial-audio/pl.af1ad34ef38543dd8bcdfc11356bd00e In the rush to make content for Apple, labels are jamming this crap out with little QC and -again- almost no input from artists. This format has real potential but if they continue to try and tell us that shit like this 'new' version of 'What’s Going On' is better than then original, then it will be seen as a counterfeit and a fraud, and will go the way of the Home Pod. I know how you feel about catalog being remixed and this has potential to be a worst case scenario." Take this FWIW: From talking to my young adult kids in their 20s, what Apple has done by announcing Atmos (and, to a lesser extent, lossless) is to creating genuine excitement that I have not seen in audio since the dawn of the stereo era in the mid/late 1960s. They ALL want to listen to this stuff, they are very excited and are talking about getting better headphones and also KRK active monitors (low cost and apparently very popular w the young folks). This is just like when all of us old guys here (not you, Chris, no insult intended, you're not a boomer) got heavy into stereo as a hobby in the 1970s. ALSO, these young people are using the Apple news as an opportunity to check out legacy bands. So in addition to the usual Kanye and Taylor Swift (those are the only current artists I can identify. I guess there's Frank Ocean and Drake and then Gaga, but I like her so she can't be that hip) they are getting exposed to Beatles, Bowie and other classic rock giants. I think this is the greatest chance to bring new people into the hobby in 50 years. I was telling my kid about getting better sound by buying a DAC + headphone amp, but he's not there yet, still acclimated to how to best listen to Apple Atmos (which I distinguish from Atmos Atmos, but which I mean in a proper HT set up. I actually thought what when Apple announced Atmos, they meant regular HT 7.2.4, but I guess this Apple Music spatial Atmos is more DSP manipulation so that your 2-ear headphones gives you a faux immersive experience. Hey, we gotta remember that Apple isn't lying to anyone. They're not pulling an MQA where, well, I don't want to use the words BS, BS, Amir, Stereophile, or any of that nonsense. Apple is not claiming virginal purity. They're putting out something that people can enjoy. Many of them are younger people who normally would have nothing to do with old man stereo equipment and certainly not with blingy OCD "everything matters" crap. I think what Apple is doing is GREAT and we should welcome it. We should be happy that Chris will soon have new, younger folk coming here seeking better sound because they've been turned on to it by Apple. (And I should ad that I am NOT an Apple fanboy. I actually think they are heavy handed, over priced, self righteous, all those bad walled garden things. But, either through intent or by accident, they are doing something really good here.) Arg, DuckToller, The Computer Audiophile and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Arg Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: … from an engineer in the industry…”…with this Atmos roll out… almost none of it is being overseen or approved by the artist or original producer or mixer. … with little QC and -again- almost no input from artists. …." I reckon this is a case of sour grapes from someone left out of the new bandwagon. Don’t give it so much credence, Chris. Why? Because this whole “overseen by the artist” and “artist’s original intent” message is the real scam. The general rule is that it doesn’t happen, and never happened. Currawong and lamode 2 Computer audiophile is not an oxymoron Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 25 minutes ago, Arg said: I reckon this is a case of sour grapes from someone left out of the new bandwagon. Don’t give it so much credence, Chris. Why? Because this whole “overseen by the artist” and “artist’s original intent” message is the real scam. The general rule is that it doesn’t happen, and never happened. Can you elaborate? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Here is just one example of Atmos Spatial Audio where the producer and recording engineer of the original album was the one who created the Atmos version. I’d say highly involved. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 32 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Here is just one example of Atmos Spatial Audio where the producer and recording engineer of the original album was the one who created the Atmos version. I’d say highly involved. Yeah, but both you and I well know these guys are an 'industry' unto themselves and will always have control and are not beholden to their label. Other artists not so much - they just roll over when the label says roll. And what if the artist and engineers are dead? SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 I have some experience with the Dolby Atmos up mixer, a few years ago though. You can get some interesting results with 2 channel to 5.1, 5.4.1 etc. if I want to fool around with 2 channel, just let me use the software myself rather than cutting me off from the traditional content. Just another money grab. lucretius 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Rt66indierock said: Another day at an audio show and another MQA demo failure. Louis Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald You Can’t Take That From Me my notes were why bother, still too much noise. Hope you're having fun down there man! Heard it's pretty small as expected this year so lots of time to savor your favourite rooms and even take in more MQA demo ;-). Wondering, when they demo mQa these days, are they switching between a standard 16/48 or "hi-res" version and the mQa decoded version or is it just... "Here's the MQA! Ain't it awesome?", any A/B comparison? MikeyFresh, botrytis and UkPhil 3 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 One more thing @Rt66indierock... Clearly they could not have picked a better track that this 1956 recording ("They Can't Take That Away From Me") to show off digital "deblurring", hi-res, and of course "authenticated" by the artists. 😉 The Computer Audiophile, MikeyFresh, svart-hvitt and 5 others 8 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, Archimago said: One more thing @Rt66indierock... Clearly they could not have picked a better track that this 1956 recording ("They Can't Take That Away From Me") to show off digital "deblurring", hi-res, and of course "authenticated" by the artists. 😉 Ha! Very similar to what Bill Schnee told me once. He went to RMAF and heard a demo of Nojima Plays Liszt at 24/176.4. He couldn’t get over the tape artifacts and was surprised they used a performance recorded to tape, then transferred to high resolution, to show off high resolution and a HiFi system. Yes, it sounded really good, but nowhere near what it could’ve sounded like. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 36 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Ha! Very similar to what Bill Schnee told me once. He went to RMAF and heard a demo of Nojima Plays Liszt at 24/176.4. He couldn’t get over the tape artifacts and was surprised they used a performance recorded to tape, then transferred to high resolution, to show off high resolution and a HiFi system. Yes, it sounded really good, but nowhere near what it could’ve sounded like. Would love to hear from @Rt66indierockif this was an actual MQA demo or just some off-the-cuff dealer "show and tell". Likewise, over the years, whether I've attended actual demos to show off MQA or at dealers, the test materials used really have not been true-hi-res stuff (once I heard a 2L recording in a demo in 2016, that was basically it). Of course for mQa, they want to imply that the codec is "Good for any music!" but by not selecting tracks that even could benefit from the technology, it just doesn't speak well about the knowledge/awareness of what it is they're selling nor consistent with the advertising claims. I suspect the "knowledge gap" between many informed audiophiles and the professional demo/sales people can be uncomfortably wide. botrytis, svart-hvitt and lucretius 3 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Archimago said: Hope you're having fun down there man! Heard it's pretty small as expected this year so lots of time to savor your favourite rooms and even take in more MQA demo ;-). Wondering, when they demo mQa these days, are they switching between a standard 16/48 or "hi-res" version and the mQa decoded version or is it just... "Here's the MQA! Ain't it awesome?", any A/B comparison? Just dealer playing an MQA file. Stand alone, he just said it was MQA after the song. botrytis 1 Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, Archimago said: Would love to hear from @Rt66indierockif this was an actual MQA demo or just some off-the-cuff dealer "show and tell". Likewise, over the years, whether I've attended actual demos to show off MQA or at dealers, the test materials used really have not been true-hi-res stuff (once I heard a 2L recording in a demo in 2016, that was basically it). Of course for mQa, they want to imply that the codec is "Good for any music!" but by not selecting tracks that even could benefit from the technology, it just doesn't speak well about the knowledge/awareness of what it is they're selling nor consistent with the advertising claims. I suspect the "knowledge gap" between many informed audiophiles and the professional demo/sales people can be uncomfortably wide. There was an information gap, my SO Sheri asked me why are we are listening to tape hiss. She will never attend another show with me. I’m enjoying myself and catching up with people but anybody who writes they are listening to great systems is fooling themselves. BassFace 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted June 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 12, 2021 Hi Guys, Bob Lefsetz just emailed out people’s comments to his latest newsletter. He published mine below :~) ”Hi Bob, the exact same thing that’s going on with Spatial Audio has been going on for years with Tidal’s mQa Masters. Most of the music goes through the big cloud converter and right to the consumers. Artists, producers, mastering engineers, etc… who worked on this stuff we’re all bypassed in order to get catalogs published. Worse that Spatial Audio, mQa is a solution looking for a problem and it actually degrades the sound. Follow the science, it shows mQa is a format created for the labels to tax music listeners who have to pay royalties via hardware to hear the master (which couldn’t be farther from the real master). Chris Connaker Founder Audiophile Style” Rt66indierock, March Audio and Currawong 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 I was told by Emiko Carlin the shows marketing person that ticket sales are higher this year than 2018 and 2019. Link to comment
Archimago Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 16 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: I was told by Emiko Carlin the shows marketing person that ticket sales are higher this year than 2018 and 2019. Wow. That's good. Maybe pent-up demand to get out there and do stuff after the year+ of restrictions! Not so good that your SO said "She will never attend another show with me". At least she gave it a try! I don't think I'd ever get my wife into such an event. ;-) Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Archimago said: Wow. That's good. Maybe pent-up demand to get out there and do stuff after the year+ of restrictions! Not so good that your SO said "She will never attend another show with me". At least she gave it a try! I don't think I'd ever get my wife into such an event. ;-) I am the tin ear and my wife is the one who is the critical listener. She gets disappointed when she can't go. I will be looking forward to AXPONA, this year, as we live in the area and don't have to book a hotel. Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Archimago Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Just now, botrytis said: I am the tin ear and my wife is the one who is the critical listener. She gets disappointed when she can't go. I will be looking forward to AXPONA, this year, as we live in the area and don't have to book a hotel. Good man. You've found a great partner. My wife and kids just care enough to steal the Apple AirPods Pros when I'm not looking... 😉 lucretius 1 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
R1200CL Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 I haven’t read the last 50 pages in this tread. The link beneath is a good summary of everything that’s bad with MQA. Maybe Chris can add this to the first post, so people don’t have to read 1000 pages. MQA REALLY IS A FRAUD! Currawong 1 Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted June 13, 2021 Author Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, R1200CL said: I haven’t read the last 50 pages in this tread. The link beneath is a good summary of everything that’s bad with MQA. Maybe Chris can add this to the first post, so people don’t have to read 1000 pages. MQA REALLY IS A FRAUD! This thread is working as I intended it to. A running commentary where I can say that was discussed or debunked years ago. botrytis 1 Link to comment
Popular Post UkPhil Posted June 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2021 Although not directly on topic I found this quote interesting from Barry Grint mastering engineer of Alchemy Mastering in UK in 2019. “Warner Records, for example, go to extraordinary lengths to digitize their analog masters. They seek out the best possible copy, are meticulous in the transfer to 24bit 192 KHz, and make copious quality control notes. There is every opportunity for a mastering engineer to deliver this audio to a higher standard than was possible before.” if that’s the case why would they market the sausage machine MQA conversions as master quality “better than lossless and an enhanced than what was heard in the studio” unless it wasn’t driven by money with the hope they can lock the true master away from the consumer in the future. Why just give consumers a 24/96 or a 24/48 version for streaming I am sure that would suffice or if everyone is so worried about data amounts create a 20/96 file which no doubt will be reasonably average size and will hold most audible music anyone would need to consume lucretius, Currawong and botrytis 3 Link to comment
Popular Post StephenJK Posted June 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, UkPhil said: Although not directly on topic I found this quote interesting from Barry Grint mastering engineer of Alchemy Mastering in UK in 2019. “Warner Records, for example, go to extraordinary lengths to digitize their analog masters. They seek out the best possible copy, are meticulous in the transfer to 24bit 192 KHz, and make copious quality control notes. There is every opportunity for a mastering engineer to deliver this audio to a higher standard than was possible before.” if that’s the case why would they market the sausage machine MQA conversions as master quality “better than lossless and an enhanced than what was heard in the studio” unless it wasn’t driven by money with the hope they can lock the true master away from the consumer in the future. Why just give consumers a 24/96 or a 24/48 version for streaming I am sure that would suffice or if everyone is so worried about data amounts create a 20/96 file which no doubt will be reasonably average size and will hold most audible music anyone would need to consume I think that's two different topics. The first is the care and attention that Warner Bros. takes with digitizing their tape libraries. This is a technical issue, particularly when considering the shelf life of many tape formats. The other is with how that music is made available to the general public. This is a commercial issue, and how best to monetize that digitized tape library. If someone wants to sell that library of music as an "MQA Master" and pay Warner Bros. for the privilege, I doubt they would have a problem with that. Currawong and botrytis 2 Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Warner knows that MQA is damaged goods. If they put out MQA recordings now, this allows them the opportunity to hold out the carrot of a better version in the future. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted June 14, 2021 Author Share Posted June 14, 2021 20 hours ago, UkPhil said: Although not directly on topic I found this quote interesting from Barry Grint mastering engineer of Alchemy Mastering in UK in 2019. “Warner Records, for example, go to extraordinary lengths to digitize their analog masters. They seek out the best possible copy, are meticulous in the transfer to 24bit 192 KHz, and make copious quality control notes. There is every opportunity for a mastering engineer to deliver this audio to a higher standard than was possible before.” if that’s the case why would they market the sausage machine MQA conversions as master quality “better than lossless and an enhanced than what was heard in the studio” unless it wasn’t driven by money with the hope they can lock the true master away from the consumer in the future. Why just give consumers a 24/96 or a 24/48 version for streaming I am sure that would suffice or if everyone is so worried about data amounts create a 20/96 file which no doubt will be reasonably average size and will hold most audible music anyone would need to consume Actualy we have talked about this before. And a Warner Music Rep at the LA Audio Show gave me the exact breakdown of the high files they had as of that date. Almost none were 24/192. botrytis 1 Link to comment
UkPhil Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 28 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: Actualy we have talked about this before. And a Warner Music Rep at the LA Audio Show gave me the exact breakdown of the high files they had as of that date. Almost none were 24/192. Interesting thanks for the confirmation, it’s amazing what non truths could be out there Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now