Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 51 minutes ago, fas42 said: If one knows what are the likely tells, and examines the waveform carefully, then you can often pinpoint a precise moment in the track when there will a distinct audible difference - and use that from then on to "game" the testing. The program Diffmaker had two audio files mixed, or not mixed; as a test of hearing prowess - the nature of the content made it essentially impossible to distinguish the two cases - but there is a small moment in the fadeout which gives it away; if you know you need to focus at that exact point. This is exactly why I was asking if anyone knows details of the actual test performed. As an example, I think the "virtual" blind test as offered by Mark Waldrep is fairly difficult to pass. (unless you cheat and analyse the files or something) Certainly the results obtained would suggest this. Difficult, but maybe not impossible, so achieving a "10 out of 10" score would be impressive. But something that relies on tells or examining waveforms is of little practical relevance. I suspect @opus101is likely to be correct when he mentioned in an earlier post that it probably a self-administered tests using a foobar plug-in. The value of claimed results from a self administered test relies heavily on the honesty and integrity of whoever performs the test. Maybe I could perform a self-administered test of my own sexual prowess, and pass with flying colours, but I am not sure the ladies of the parish would agree. botrytis 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 Does anyone know what this is about? https://gearspace.com/board/mastering-forum/1171365-mqa-discussion-denver-rmaf-24.html#post15479024 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 12 minutes ago, Confused said: Does anyone know what this is about? https://gearspace.com/board/mastering-forum/1171365-mqa-discussion-denver-rmaf-24.html#post15479024 I'll put it right next to the other endorsements. There's no there there. Josh Mound 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I'll put it right next to the other endorsements. There's no their there. Or this :D Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, botrytis said: Or this :D Seriously, his statement is only interesting because of who he is, not because of what he has said. It offers zero specifics, uses phrases like "we’ve been able to verify almost all of MQA’s claims," "much less stressful for extended listening," and "I’ve been listening to MQA-encoded music for over 3 years, and i’m very enthusiastic." Think about that. If I put any number of old guard press credentials on those statements, we would all laugh. There's nothing other than, "just trust me." Verifying claims in the patent is one thing, yes it's lossy as described in the patent. Yes, it makes 24/384 file smaller by throwing away information. How hard is that to verify? Without any specifics, I'll take it for what it is. I respect George's work, but the statements in his comment are pretty empty. March Audio and lucretius 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Seriously, his statement is only interesting because of who he is, not because of what he has said. It offers zero specifics, uses phrases like "we’ve been able to verify almost all of MQA’s claims," "much less stressful for extended listening," and "I’ve been listening to MQA-encoded music for over 3 years, and i’m very enthusiastic." Think about that. If I put any number of old guard press credentials on those statements, we would all laugh. There's nothing other than, "just trust me." Verifying claims in the patent is one thing, yes it's lossy as described in the patent. Yes, it makes 24/384 file smaller by throwing away information. How hard is that to verify? Without any specifics, I'll take it for what it is. I respect George's work, but the statements in his comment are pretty empty. I know - I was making joke. I read through the thread and thought - wow - lossless in the analog domain? It is like putting an MP3 into a FLAC container - does that means it is lossless in the analog domain? That is a strawman argument. Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I'll put it right next to the other endorsements. There's no there there. I was interested in the comment "we’ve been provided with an MQA Real Time Encoder". I guess I was wondering if we could all have one for testing? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Confused said: I was interested in the comment "we’ve been provided with an MQA Real Time Encoder". I guess I was wondering if we could all have one for testing? I believe the real time encoder is just what they use for the live events mQa has done. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, botrytis said: I know - I was making joke. Yeah, I caught that, but maybe didn't seem like it :~) Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Yeah, I caught that, but maybe didn't seem like it :~) Sorry - I just can't take mQa supporters very serious any more. All the marketing speak that gets in the way of actual measurements and talk of those. The Computer Audiophile 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post lucretius Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 7 minutes ago, botrytis said: Sorry - I just can't take mQa supporters very serious any more. All the marketing speak that gets in the way of actual measurements and talk of those. Now that's an illegal comment -- it's outside the Shannon triangle. 🙂 [There's nothing sillier than grownups repeating stuff they don't understand]. ChrisG and Currawong 2 mQa is dead! Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, lucretius said: Now that's an illegal comment -- it's outside the Shannon triangle. 🙂 [There's nothing sillier than grownups repeating stuff they don't understand]. Adults do that all the time..... Being a scientist, when I was a grad school, my one advisor stated to me, ' You know, the more I learn, the less I really know.' I still use that as my day to day modus operandi. MikeyFresh, lucretius, Josh Mound and 1 other 4 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 23 minutes ago, lucretius said: Now that's an illegal comment -- it's outside the Shannon triangle. 🙂 [There's nothing sillier than grownups repeating stuff they don't understand]. I know all about the Shannon triangle, you're not fooling me .... lucretius, Currawong, yahooboy and 3 others 6 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 mQa reminds me more of the Bermuda Triangle than Shannon's. lucretius, Josh Mound and yahooboy 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: mQa reminds me more of the Bermuda Triangle than Shannon's. Maybe the Bermuda Triangle will fill up now, with all the bits mysteriously lost from MQA files. lucretius and botrytis 2 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Confused said: I know all about the Shannon triangle, you're not fooling me .... I flew into Shannon, when I went on a bus tour of Ireland. That was during the Hoof and Mouth disease scare in the UK, We had to step in several trays of bleach and other chemicals to clean our shoes. I will never forget that. Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 There is a smell to all this. Suddenly there are people all over the internet regurgitating the talking points that MQA has been spouting since its inception. They are spouting the same BS in ever changing terms over and over. Nobody initiates a covert advertising campaign like this unless they expect a return on their money. Something is brewing. People need to remember, there is no benefit to the music consumer, only cost. There is nothing that MQA does, or more accurately, claims to do, that cannot be done by open source technology. Having MQA take over the distribution of music would be a major screwing of the music consumer. botrytis, UkPhil, lucretius and 1 other 4 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post Confused Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, KeenObserver said: There is a smell to all this. Suddenly there are people all over the internet regurgitating the talking points that MQA has been spouting since its inception. They are spouting the same BS in ever changing terms over and over. Nobody initiates a covert advertising campaign like this unless they expect a return on their money. Something is brewing. People need to remember, there is no benefit to the music consumer, only cost. There is nothing that MQA does, or more accurately, claims to do, that cannot be done by open source technology. Having MQA take over the distribution of music would be a major screwing of the music consumer. Maybe, maybe not, time will tell. (unless anyone knows something?) Personally, a lot of why I have seen recently has directly resulted from the reaction to the GoldenSound YouTube videos, perhaps mixed in with a few "I'm leaving Tidal" or "Tidal is dead" type comments prompted both by the video and recent announcements re new "hi res", low cost, streaming options coming available. So maybe something is brewing, or maybe the "pro MQA" contingent is simply getting a little panicky and going in for a final battle? botrytis and MikeyFresh 2 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 Well, GS actually published material through mQa and that really is what the stink is about. Also, his rational explanation and demeanor must have struck a sour note with the religious believers in mQa. BS being so nasty to GS talks volumes about what is really going on. MikeyFresh, Josh Mound, lucretius and 1 other 4 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Confused said: So maybe something is brewing, or maybe the "pro MQA" contingent is simply getting a little panicky and going in for a final battle? Perhaps so. But it seems too coordinated and the language seems too carefully crafted. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post svart-hvitt Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 Just a comment on the GoldenOne critique which seems to get support in some circles. @GoldenOne has been criticised for inappropriate testing of MQA, using signals that are beyond the intent of the MQA technology. That argument is very popular at ASR, not least with Amir. It got me thinking about the speaker reviews of Amir, where he routinely tests the speakers outside of their recommended use to produce woofer artefacts. Elac engineer Andrew Jones tried to explain what is inappropriate speaker testing to Amir: «It seems that the level you were testing at was far in excess of the max power rating of the speaker. This could account for the comments from other listeners that have not heard the sound»*. AFAIK, Amir never admitted his inappropriate testing or retracted a word. So there seems to be a double standard here where GoldenOne is held to a higher standard than those who deny that GoldenOne has a point or two. *Link to Elac’ Andrew Jones comment on Amir’s inappropriate speaker testing: https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/elac-uni-fi-2-0-review-bookshelf-speaker.19216/page-23#post-690938 Josh Mound, UkPhil, botrytis and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, svart-hvitt said: Just a comment on the GoldenOne critique which seems to get support in some circles. @GoldenOne has been criticised for inappropriate testing of MQA, using signals that are beyond the intent of the MQA technology. That argument is very popular at ASR, not least with Amir. It got me thinking about the speaker reviews of Amir, where he routinely tests the speakers outside of their recommended use to produce woofer artefacts. Elac engineer Andrew Jones tried to explain what is inappropriate speaker testing to Amir: «It seems that the level you were testing at was far in excess of the max power rating of the speaker. This could account for the comments from other listeners that have not heard the sound»*. AFAIK, Amir never admitted his inappropriate testing or retracted a word. So there seems to be a double standard here where GoldenOne is held to a higher standard than those who deny that GoldenOne has a point or two. *Link to Elac’ Andrew Jones comment on Amir’s inappropriate speaker testing: https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/elac-uni-fi-2-0-review-bookshelf-speaker.19216/page-23#post-690938 They misuse the term science. It should be audio opinion review There is more science discussed on this forum than anywhere else - Thanks Chris :D Josh Mound, The Computer Audiophile, lucretius and 1 other 4 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post svart-hvitt Posted June 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, botrytis said: They misuse the term science. It should be audio opinion review There is more science discussed on this forum than anywhere else - Thanks Chris :D Or simply Amir Science Review. Another inconsistency over there, which many ASR members seem to ignore: Amir attacks @GoldenOne and others he disagrees with for being anonymous. Yet, academic peer reviews are (often) anonymous. So he criticises an institution (anonymity in exchange of ideas and know-how) which is a cornerstone of the word «review» which Amir used to build the ASR brand. maxijazz, yahooboy, MikeyFresh and 1 other 4 Link to comment
botrytis Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, svart-hvitt said: Or simply Amir Science Review. Another inconsistency over there, which many ASR members seem to ignore: Amir attacks @GoldenOne and others he disagrees with for being anonymous. Yet, academic peer reviews are (often) anonymous. So he criticises an institution (anonymity in exchange of ideas and know-how) which is a cornerstone of the word «review» which Amir used to build the ASR brand. Amir's version of science :D MikeyFresh 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
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