MQA is Vaporware

[Confused]

19 hours ago, lucretius said:

Amir is only an objectivist when it suits him, otherwise he 's a rabid subjectivist, apparently with the hearing of a bat.

Indeed, I notice that he makes a comment about having passed a double blind test for 16 bits versus 24 bits. 

 

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

[botrytis]

23 minutes ago, Confused said:

Indeed, I notice that he makes a comment about having passed a double blind test for 16 bits versus 24 bits. 

 

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

 

 

Double blind tests are hard to setup properly and do properly. All it takes is one wink, nod, etc. at the wrong time and it is no longer a blind test. 

 

I don't think Amir knows what is is talking about with that test.

[manueljenkin]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Indeed, I notice that he makes a comment about having passed a double blind test for 16 bits versus 24 bits. 

 

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

It can be easily done by manipulation different types of dither. On a side note, with a truly resolving system, it can be likely that one could actually hear the difference between 16 and 24 bits. All audibility studies are inconclusive so there is a possibility.

[Josh Mound]

Now Amir is arguing that MQA being lossy is good because space actually is a concern. But instead of using an apples-to-apples MQA to effective FLAC resolution example, he’s pointing to a WAV of a long song from a 2xHD DSD release!

 

This is obvious bait-and-switch strawmanning, but I feel like I’m losing my mind. How does he have any credibility?!

 

[JoeWhip]

I have known Amir for a long time, back to the HD DVD days and the early days of WBF. Can’t take him seriously. Perhaps this will be the first dent in the cult like thinking over there at ASR.

[KeenObserver]

8 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have known Amir for a long time, back to the HD DVD days and the early days of WBF. Can’t take him seriously. Perhaps this will be the first dent in the cult like thinking over there at ASR.

 

Wow!

I just went over there.

Amir is just losing it. He's obsessing on Chris.

Normally I would feel sorry for someone devolving like that. But he is such an arrogant, condescending narcissist that I can't.

I guess that is what MQA does to people. Must be something in the ultrasonics that sets them off.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Let's try to keep this discussion on mQa guys. 

[botrytis]

If Chris can handle a few mQa mavens at a talk, Amir is not a big deal.

 

I just wish mQa would just go away.

[KeenObserver]

25 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I just wish mQa would just go away.

 

You and I. And probably many others.

[KeenObserver]

Chris

There has been activity everywhere. There have been a slew of people pushing the MQA line of BS.

You have your ear to the ground.

Are they just desperate or is something coming?

[Arg]

9 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

No. As GS said, does that mean electronic music would be an inappropriate signal? They are trying to have it both ways and they can't. I mean Amir uses test signals when he tests DACs, some with mQa, so why is it different for him? It is not and that is the point.

 

 

 

IIRC he specifically took exception with using a test signal in the ‘folded’ frequency range. I can understand that concern. And I thought that was consistent with John Dyson’s point. 

[Currawong]

On 5/31/2021 at 12:15 AM, KeenObserver said:

To reiterate.

MQA wants to implement a business plan whereby they control the processing and distribution of music. They are backed by the three largest music studios who own stock in MQA. Every aspect of music distribution will be controlled by MQA, who will charge licensing fees on every aspect. This will open the door for the studios to implement DRM.

The music consumer will be getting a damaged product and will be paying heavily for the "privilege".

The carnival barkers will be telling you that you are getting "perceptually lossless" music.

The carnival barkers will be telling you that what you are getting is "better" than the original masters.

The carnival barkers are telling you to just submit.

 

Apple and Spotify wont touch MQA with a 10-foot barge pole.  That makes it dead in the water.  Why do you think Apple is running music through an optional Dolby Atmost process? Where do you think they got the idea to do that, restricted their own hardware?

 

This leaves MQA to a small number of people who care about it. Once Roon and Deezer integrate, and the Qobuz catalog expands sufficiently, TIDAL will be even more marginalised. 

 

7 hours ago, botrytis said:

Double blind tests are hard to setup properly and do properly. All it takes is one wink, nod, etc. at the wrong time and it is no longer a blind test. 

A DBT is easy to rig as well. I'll bet I could pass a CD-quality-vs-high-res test easily. I'd just make the CD quality files by downsampling the high-res using the worst encoder settings. The counter is, if I want someone to fail a DBT, I just put them under enough stress or have enough unfamiliarity in the test that they wont pass. This is why I consider 90% of DBT discussion on forums to just be argument masturbation by people who don't know any better, and not anything to do with actual science.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, Arg said:

 

IIRC he specifically took exception with using a test signal in the ‘folded’ frequency range. I can understand that concern. And I thought that was consistent with John Dyson’s point. 

 

Not really. As GS said in HIS response, if his files were problems, then computer generated music and synthesizers would have issues also.

 

Everything thing BS said in response to the first video was obfuscation. It is the same thing they did to Chris at his presentation.

[botrytis]

56 minutes ago, Currawong said:

 

Apple and Spotify wont touch MQA with a 10-foot barge pole.  That makes it dead in the water.  Why do you think Apple is running music through an optional Dolby Atmost process? Where do you think they got the idea to do that, restricted their own hardware?

 

This leaves MQA to a small number of people who care about it. Once Roon and Deezer integrate, and the Qobuz catalog expands sufficiently, TIDAL will be even more marginalised. 

 

A DBT is easy to rig as well. I'll bet I could pass a CD-quality-vs-high-res test easily. I'd just make the CD quality files by downsampling the high-res using the worst encoder settings. The counter is, if I want someone to fail a DBT, I just put them under enough stress or have enough unfamiliarity in the test that they wont pass. This is why I consider 90% of DBT discussion on forums to just be argument masturbation by people who don't know any better, and not anything to do with actual science.

 

DBT tests should be setup with one or two people picking the tracks but the people playing the tracks should not which is which, they should be separated, just like they do for drug DBT's.

[Arg]

9 hours ago, Confused said:

Indeed, I notice that he makes a comment about having passed a double blind test for 16 bits versus 24 bits. 

 

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

 

He (Amir) is quite transparent about it. It is not a boast about his hearing ability: it is to refute people wrongly saying “no way, no one, no how, can you tell if a music recording is 16 or 24 bit.” It’s in one of his videos. He had to pick out a lead-out section of a track where music levels are very low, put the ABX gear on A-B repeat of 2 seconds, and crank the volume, and listen to the noise difference. He literally says, “you could say I cheated”. He also openly says that neither he nor anyone would have a hope of telling them apart in listening to music passages at normal recording levels. Nothing wrong with that IMHO, and point well made.

 

P.S. to the general discussion in this thread: didn’t Chris encourage discussion of MQA instead of character assassination?

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, Arg said:

to the general discussion in this thread: didn’t Chris encourage discussion of MQA instead of character assassination?

Yes. 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

32 minutes ago, Arg said:

 

He (Amir) is quite transparent about it. It is not a boast about his hearing ability: it is to refute people wrongly saying “no way, no one, no how, can you tell if a music recording is 16 or 24 bit.” It’s in one of his videos. He had to pick out a lead-out section of a track where music levels are very low, put the ABX gear on A-B repeat of 2 seconds, and crank the volume, and listen to the noise difference. He literally says, “you could say I cheated”. He also openly says that neither he nor anyone would have a hope of telling them apart in listening to music passages at normal recording levels. Nothing wrong with that IMHO, and point well made.

 

P.S. to the general discussion in this thread: didn’t Chris encourage discussion of MQA instead of character assassination?

So now we know you are an Amir groupie and an apologist. And probably the reason the last few pages were scrubbed clean. Good job, if so.

 

If Amir took a dump on your desk, you would thank him for the chocolate mousse.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

So now we know you are an Amir groupie and an apologist. And probably the reason the last few pages were scrubbed clean. Good job, if so.

 

If Amir took a dump on your desk, you would thank him for the chocolate mousse.

Stop your nonsense or your gone. 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Stop your nonsense or your gone. 

why did you scrub legitimate posts?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

why did you scrub legitimate posts?

They were nonsense. This is warning 2. One more and you’re gone. 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

51 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

They were nonsense. This is warning 2. One more and you’re gone. 

Don't threaten me you pasty faced Schlemiel. Fucking nonsense.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

Don't threaten me you pasty faced Schlemiel. Fucking nonsense.

Bye bye. 

[botrytis]

Back to the mQa show or 'The Emperor does have clothes but they are made from live piranhas.'

[opus101]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

 

I'm fairly sure it was one of those self-administered tests using a foobar plug-in. He often posts the output of those.

[fas42]

19 hours ago, Confused said:

Indeed, I notice that he makes a comment about having passed a double blind test for 16 bits versus 24 bits. 

 

Assuming this is true, this is quite impressive.  Does anyone know if this has been independently verified or what the basis of the test was?

 

If one knows what are the likely tells, and examines the waveform carefully, then you can often pinpoint a precise moment in the track when there will a distinct audible difference - and use that from then on to "game" the testing.

 

The program Diffmaker had two audio files mixed, or not mixed; as a test of hearing prowess - the nature of the content made it essentially impossible to distinguish the two cases - but there is a small moment in the fadeout which gives it away; if you know you need to focus at that exact point.