MQA is Vaporware

[R1200CL]

 

[R1200CL]

9 minutes ago, bogi said:

This is 4x unfold of 44.1k/16bit to 352.8k/48bit

At least it’s optical 😂

[R1200CL]

https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/opinions/the-original-is-the-best?fbclid=IwAR2bdKzas1Ki-eCErhQhVLk8BSD03xIPgzQKUzl8IBRYcNur_d8nulsheZI
 

More BS.....

 

As another example. Donald Fagan Nightfly was produced in 16 bit using this recorder https://audiophilestyle.com/s3/files/2011/1028/the-3m-manual.pdf

Still Warner upsamples to 24/48 (Qobuz and HDtracks). MQA unfold to 24/96. I assume it’s done for almost every early 16 bit recording.

 

 

[Thuaveta]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It really blows my mind that audiophiles are onboard with MQA. It has zero to do with sound quality.

 

Yeah, whoda thunk people who can be sold that magical stones make an audible difference would fall for the engineering equivalent to a North Korean general, just because he'd shout "Master Quality"...

 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

From the link: "...the audio is identical – as we know from the MQA indicator."

...you must learn to trust the indicator. The blue light is the Spice.

[sphinxsix]

Meanwhile on the video front.

 

Warner Bros to launch its 2021 movies simultaneously on HBO Max and in cinemas

 

Christopher Nolan leads industry fury over Warner Bros' streaming move

 

 

[Cebolla]

6 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

According to the patent diagram, the 0-24kHz is mapped to the 13 MSB bits .  The next 3 bits are then used to trigger the blue light and selection of the MQA filter, etc.*  That would make MQA-CD 13 bits -- not just 13 bits but 13 bit playback with a leaky filter.  [For 24 bit MQA, HF -- 24-48kHz -- seems to be packed into the 4 LSB bits (bit 21 to bit 24).]

 

*Further, more than 1 bit is needed to indicate authentication, filter selection and, possibly, sample rate.  Also, note that the 8 LSB bits in a 24 bit MQA file are not involved in the MQA authentication process -- the file will still authenticate when those bits are dropped.

 

That doesn't appear to happen in practice:

 

 

Having said that there does appear to be scope in the actual MQA decoder to allow just 8 bits PCM (0-24kHz), so far worse than mentioned in the patent!

 

[lucretius]

3 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

That doesn't appear to happen in practice:

 

 

Having said that there does appear to be scope in the actual MQA decoder to allow just 8 bits PCM (0-24kHz), so far worse than mentioned in the patent!

 

 

Sure, like mansr said, any specific numbers mentioned in the patents may just be examples.  However, 3 or 4 bits do not become 1, etc.  And we know from tests, that the 8 LSB bits in a 24 bit MQA file are not involved in the MQA authentication process. And, in the case of 16bit MQA, there's no way one bit alone is used to indicate authentication, filter selection and sample rate  -- so, I doubt that mansr seen files with 15 bits of PCM and 1 bit MQA.  Note that mansr's last statement (re 14-bits) contradicts what he said about 15 bit PCM/1 bit MQA files.

 

 

[danadam]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

Note that mansr's last statement (re 14-bits) contradicts what he said about 15 bit PCM/1 bit MQA files.

15-bit comment was about MQA-CD, 14-bit comment could have been about MQA non-CD.

[Don Hills]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

... And, in the case of 16bit MQA, there's no way one bit alone is used to indicate authentication, filter selection and sample rate  -- so, I doubt that mansr seen files with 15 bits of PCM and 1 bit MQA. ...

 

 

1 bit is enough. It's a bitstream, not a flag or switch. That is, all of the required info is encoded as a series of 1 or 0 bits which are stored in the LSB of successive samples.

 

 

[lucretius]

42 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

1 bit is enough. It's a bitstream, not a flag or switch. That is, all of the required info is encoded as a series of 1 or 0 bits which are stored in the LSB of successive samples.

 

 

 

Then wouldn't that be a problem for determining the start and end of a series of bits?  Note that you can take a slice from an MQA file and the MQA encoding still works.

[lucretius]

1 hour ago, danadam said:

15-bit comment was about MQA-CD, 14-bit comment could have been about MQA non-CD.

 

That makes no sense that MQA-CD would have more bits of actual music than 24 bit MQA.

[Don Hills]

2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Then wouldn't that be a problem for determining the start and end of a series of bits?  Note that you can take a slice from an MQA file and the MQA encoding still works.

 

The decoder looks for a particular bit sequence that marks the beginning of a series. The series repeats at regular intervals. Editing a section out of an MQA file only breaks one instance of the series.

[UkPhil]

So we could have three variables to play with reading into all this.......

 

CD  13 bit reserved for audio (with 3 bits for MQA data blue/green light / filters & upsampling ?)

 

16/44.1 file 14/15 Bit reserved for audio (with 1 /2 bit for MQA data blue/green light / filters only no upsampling ?) 

 

24/44.1 (48) file 17 bit reserved for audio (with 7 bits MQA data blue/green light / filters & upsampling ?)

 

What a god damn mess 
 

[firedog]

From the product page for the new iFi desktop DAC:

https://ifi-audio.com/products/neo-idsd/

 

Quote

This means that the full ‘three unfold’ decoding process is performed internally, as opposed to only the final unfold in the manner of an MQA ‘renderer’.

 How can they even write this stuff? There is no third unfold.

[lucretius]

1 hour ago, UkPhil said:

So we could have three variables to play with reading into all this.......

 

CD  13 bit reserved for audio (with 3 bits for MQA data blue/green light / filters & upsampling ?)

 

16/44.1 file 14/15 Bit reserved for audio (with 1 /2 bit for MQA data blue/green light / filters only no upsampling ?) 

 

24/44.1 (48) file 17 bit reserved for audio (with 7 bits MQA data blue/green light / filters & upsampling ?)

 

What a god damn mess 
 

 

The 13 bits (LF - 0 to 24 kHz) comes from the patent diagram (there is no upsampling with MQA-CD so that the 3 bits does not have to indicate any upsampling scheme). Same is true for the 17 bits (13 bits LF + 4 bits HF).  OTH, the 14/15 bit assertion was mere speculation.  

 

With respect to the 7 bits MQA data you noted above, that 7 bits is a block of 3 bits and a block of 4 bits -- the block of 3 bits is bit 14 to bit 16, same as MQA-CD. The other block of 4 bits relate to HF (24kHz to 48kHz) frequencies.  In fact there are 2 blocks of 4 bits relating to HF -- one block of 4 bits presumably carries the compressed (and lossy) image of the HF spectrum (and is part of the 17 (13 + 4) bits of actual music), while the other 4 bits presumably contains the upsampling scheme.

[lucretius]

26 minutes ago, firedog said:

From the product page for the new iFi desktop DAC:

https://ifi-audio.com/products/neo-idsd/

 

 How can they even write this stuff? There is no third unfold.

 

There's not even a second unfold. There's one unfold (to 96k) with a x2 (times 2) or x4 (times 4) or x8 (times 8) upsampling. In MQA speak, x2, x4, and x8 are misleadlingly characterized as a second, third, and fourth unfold, respectively.   

[firedog]

4 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

There's not even a second unfold. There's one unfold (to 96k) with a x2 (times 2) or x3 (times 3) or x4 (times 4) upsampling. In MQA speak, x2, x3, and x4 are misleadlingly characterized as a second, third, and fourth unfold, respectively.   

Oh yeah, I get that. But previously they referred to a second unfold which was sort of okay (although deceptive) 'cause it meant "upsampling". So there is a first unfold and then upsampling -2 stages. But somehow this has now become discrete "stages" that you only get if you buy that special HW you need for each multiple of X....It is truly disgusting marketing.

[lucretius]

6 hours ago, Don Hills said:

 

The decoder looks for a particular bit sequence that marks the beginning of a series. The series repeats at regular intervals. Editing a section out of an MQA file only breaks one instance of the series.

 

Are you saying that this is a possibility or that the MQA decoder actually works this way?

[UkPhil]

53 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

The 13 bits (LF - 0 to 24 kHz) comes from the patent diagram (there is no upsampling with MQA-CD so that the 3 bits does not have to indicate any upsampling scheme).

Thanks for the info,

 

I have a few ripped MQA CD's that show 16/44.1 as base data but expands to 352.8 (8x) on the output screen when played back, does this mean their is no upsampling be it even lossy in these files so it just  BS ?

[lucretius]

1 minute ago, UkPhil said:

Thanks for the info,

 

I have a few ripped MQA CD's that show 16/44.1 as base data but expands to 352.8 (8x) on the output screen when played back, does this mean their is no upsampling be it even lossy in these files so it just  BS ?

 

What output screen?  Roon or the DAC?

[UkPhil]

2 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

What output screen?  Roon or the DAC?

Hi

 

It appears on the DAC 

[lucretius]

53 minutes ago, UkPhil said:

Hi

 

It appears on the DAC 

 

There are two sources for MQA-CD. The first is where the master is 44.1/16 bit. The second is where an MQA 16-bit file was made by removing the lower 8 bits of an 24 bit MQA file (this appears to be the case for the file you noted). And in this latter case, it would appear that there are no unfolds or upsampling. I could be wrong -- there definitely is no unfold to 88.2/96k but there could be straight-up upsampling?

 

[Cebolla]

11 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Sure, like mansr said, any specific numbers mentioned in the patents may just be examples.  However, 3 or 4 bits do not become 1, etc.  And we know from tests, that the 8 LSB bits in a 24 bit MQA file are not involved in the MQA authentication process. And, in the case of 16bit MQA, there's no way one bit alone is used to indicate authentication, filter selection and sample rate  -- so, I doubt that mansr seen files with 15 bits of PCM and 1 bit MQA.  Note that mansr's last statement (re 14-bits) contradicts what he said about 15 bit PCM/1 bit MQA files.

 

Odd that given the many of those tests & the conclusions were made by mansr himself, you doubt his observation in tests of never having seen an MQA-CD file with more than 1 bit for MQA authentication and further, prefer to believe that this contradicts his observation in tests of never having seen an MQA file with more than 2 bits for MQA authentication.

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

Are you saying that this is a possibility or that the MQA decoder actually works this way?

 

Goodness, please go back & actually read about some of those 'tests', eg: