Popular Post sphinxsix Posted November 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2020 St. Andrews University and Hi-Fi News' Jim Lesurf (sorry if dup): MQA or “There and back again”. MikeyFresh and Confused 2 Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted November 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2020 MQA coding is not even reaching Shannon, so how can this be named Post-shannon? Today I saw the docu named "The Bit Player", which is about Shannon: https://thebitplayer.com/ At the end of the docu, they show a French team which actually reached the Shannon limit. Now MQA claims it is post-Shannon. To go beyond Shannon, we would at least assume they are able to reach Shannon. To reach Shannon, their codec should reach the Shannon limit, and therefore the encoded data, should not be able to reduced further. Now if we can use open source tools to do the same as in MQA's patent, that is decimate the audio to 17 bits at 2x base rate, what will we get? Let's take a 24 bit 352.8K file from 2L.no, which is 410M: 410M 2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac when we look at the MQA file, which was encoded using 17/88.2 dithering, we get a 52M file: 52M 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac When using sox to several dithering precisions (e.g. 8 bit, 13 bit, 20 bit), we see that sox can reach at least 19/88.2 in the same coding space as MQA's 17/88.2, and that 17/88.2 when done with sox, is almost 30% more effcient than MQA Example for 19 bit precision using 24 bit 88.2K encoded flac: [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# sox -D -V 2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac -b 24 1988.flac rate -vsM 88.2k dither -p 19 sox: SoX v14.4.1 sox INFO formats: detected file format type `flac' Input File : '2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac' Channels : 2 Sample Rate : 352800 Precision : 24-bit Duration : 00:04:55.21 = 104151264 samples ~ 22141 CDDA sectors File Size : 409M Bit Rate : 11.1M Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC Endian Type : little Reverse Nibbles: no Reverse Bits : no Comments : ALBUM=MAGNIFICAT ALBUMARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene ARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene BARCODE=7041888519621 CATALOGNUMBER=7041888519621 COMMENT=Generated by Merging Technologies Album Publishing Label Code: 2L COMPOSER=Kim Andre Arnesen DATE=2014 DISCNUMBER=1 ENCODEDBY=Merging Technologies Album Publishing GENRE=Classical ISRC=NOMPP1407040 LABEL=2L TITLE=Arnesen: MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia TRACKNUMBER=4 TRACKTOTAL=10 sox INFO flac: encoding at 24 bits per sample sox INFO flac: non-standard rate; output may not be streamable Output File : '1988.flac' Channels : 2 Sample Rate : 88200 Precision : 24-bit Duration : 00:04:55.21 = 26037816 samples ~ 22141 CDDA sectors Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC Endian Type : little Reverse Nibbles: no Reverse Bits : no Comments : ALBUM=MAGNIFICAT ALBUMARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene ARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene BARCODE=7041888519621 CATALOGNUMBER=7041888519621 COMMENT=Generated by Merging Technologies Album Publishing Label Code: 2L COMPOSER=Kim Andre Arnesen DATE=2014 DISCNUMBER=1 ENCODEDBY=Merging Technologies Album Publishing GENRE=Classical ISRC=NOMPP1407040 LABEL=2L TITLE=Arnesen: MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia TRACKNUMBER=4 TRACKTOTAL=10 sox INFO sox: effects chain: input 352800Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: rate 88200Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: dither 88200Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: output 88200Hz 2 channels [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# du --si *88.flac 13M 0888.flac 22M 1388.flac 37M 1788.flac 49M 1988.flac 56M 2088.flac [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# du --si 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac 52M 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac So Tidal would save a lot more bandwidth if they just dither the actual masters to 17/96 or 17/88.2 for 2x or higher rate input files. How does MQA save bandwidth again? MikeyFresh and oPossum 1 1 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post UkPhil Posted November 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2020 58 minutes ago, FredericV said: MQA coding is not even reaching Shannon, so how can this be named Post-shannon? Today I saw the docu named "The Bit Player", which is about Shannon: https://thebitplayer.com/ At the end of the docu, they show a French team which actually reached the Shannon limit. Now MQA claims it is post-Shannon. To go beyond Shannon, we would at least assume they are able to reach Shannon. To reach Shannon, their codec should reach the Shannon limit, and therefore the encoded data, should not be able to reduced further. Now if we can use open source tools to do the same as in MQA's patent, that is decimate the audio to 17 bits at 2x base rate, what will we get? Let's take a 24 bit 352.8K file from 2L.no, which is 410M: 410M 2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac when we look at the MQA file, which was encoded using 17/88.2 dithering, we get a 52M file: 52M 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac When using sox to several dithering precisions (e.g. 8 bit, 13 bit, 20 bit), we see that sox can reach at least 19/88.2 in the same coding space as MQA's 17/88.2, and that 17/88.2 when done with sox, is almost 30% more effcient than MQA Example for 19 bit precision using 24 bit 88.2K encoded flac: [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# sox -D -V 2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac -b 24 1988.flac rate -vsM 88.2k dither -p 19 sox: SoX v14.4.1 sox INFO formats: detected file format type `flac' Input File : '2L-106_stereo_DXD-352k_MAGNIFICAT_04.flac' Channels : 2 Sample Rate : 352800 Precision : 24-bit Duration : 00:04:55.21 = 104151264 samples ~ 22141 CDDA sectors File Size : 409M Bit Rate : 11.1M Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC Endian Type : little Reverse Nibbles: no Reverse Bits : no Comments : ALBUM=MAGNIFICAT ALBUMARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene ARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene BARCODE=7041888519621 CATALOGNUMBER=7041888519621 COMMENT=Generated by Merging Technologies Album Publishing Label Code: 2L COMPOSER=Kim Andre Arnesen DATE=2014 DISCNUMBER=1 ENCODEDBY=Merging Technologies Album Publishing GENRE=Classical ISRC=NOMPP1407040 LABEL=2L TITLE=Arnesen: MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia TRACKNUMBER=4 TRACKTOTAL=10 sox INFO flac: encoding at 24 bits per sample sox INFO flac: non-standard rate; output may not be streamable Output File : '1988.flac' Channels : 2 Sample Rate : 88200 Precision : 24-bit Duration : 00:04:55.21 = 26037816 samples ~ 22141 CDDA sectors Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC Endian Type : little Reverse Nibbles: no Reverse Bits : no Comments : ALBUM=MAGNIFICAT ALBUMARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene ARTIST=Nidarosdomens jentekor & TrondheimSolistene BARCODE=7041888519621 CATALOGNUMBER=7041888519621 COMMENT=Generated by Merging Technologies Album Publishing Label Code: 2L COMPOSER=Kim Andre Arnesen DATE=2014 DISCNUMBER=1 ENCODEDBY=Merging Technologies Album Publishing GENRE=Classical ISRC=NOMPP1407040 LABEL=2L TITLE=Arnesen: MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia TRACKNUMBER=4 TRACKTOTAL=10 sox INFO sox: effects chain: input 352800Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: rate 88200Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: dither 88200Hz 2 channels sox INFO sox: effects chain: output 88200Hz 2 channels [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# du --si *88.flac 13M 0888.flac 22M 1388.flac 37M 1788.flac 49M 1988.flac 56M 2088.flac [root@master MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia]# du --si 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac 52M 2L-106_04_stereo_DXD_FLAC.mqa.flac So Tidal would save a lot more bandwidth if they just dither the actual masters to 17/96 or 17/88.2 for 2x or higher rate input files. How does MQA save bandwidth again? Unfortunately audio is not the priority controlling consumer choice and creating a financial flow is botrytis and The Computer Audiophile 2 Link to comment
MikeyFresh Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 12 hours ago, FredericV said: No word about batch encoded albums ... a big taboo? Terrible "interview", a total crock of BS being spewed there. Shame on both Tidal themselves and to the "interviewer" as well for giving MQA an infomercial. Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
Popular Post MarkusBarkus Posted November 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2020 Interesting interview. They must have a tidy MQArmy to chase down the artists and master files to push out that much content so quickly. "White glove treatment" feels more like "blue glove treatment." JSeymour and MikeyFresh 1 1 I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2020 1 minute ago, MarkusBarkus said: Interesting interview. They must have a tidy MQArmy to chase down the artists and master files to push out that much content so quickly. "White glove treatment" feels more like "blue glove treatment." Or latex glove treatment. sphinxsix and JSeymour 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted November 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2020 17 hours ago, sphinxsix said: St. Andrews University and Hi-Fi News' Jim Lesurf (sorry if dup): MQA or “There and back again”. Interesting to revisit this article. Quote Do we actually need MQA at all? How ‘Authentic’ in audio terms can we regard the results as being given the appearance of aliased components that were not present in the original recording? One example is MQA-CD or truncating 24 bit to 16 bit. It will generate aliased components which were not in the original: Quote Are there potential alternatives which can provide provide a similar – or better – level of data compression and deliver good sound quality whilst avoiding the addition of anharmonic aliasing? Downsampling content to 19/96 with dithering applied and packaged as 24/96 flac, will result in an even better dynamic range compared to 17/96 MQA (which is being sold as 96K, 192K, 384K MQA), it will be the same size as those folded MQA files which are all decimated to 17/96 at the encoder, it will be backwards compatible with all flac decoders. If we reduce the bit depth to 17/96 the files will be even smaller than those MQA files, so Tidal would actually benefit from this. But they would not be able to stick the label "MASTER" onto this trivial process. Just add a complex DRM compression scheme which is difficult to understand to most users, have DACs and players which show a fake (upsampled) resolution et voila, we suddenly have a solution in need of a problem. Saving as much bandwidth as technically possible while keeping the Shannon triangle as shown in the canned MQA articles, was never the goal. MikeyFresh, lucretius, UkPhil and 1 other 3 1 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted November 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2020 In other news MQA CD is starting to annoy MQA users: Just blame it on the human error ... At least users now start to understand MQA CD has no actual hi-res or ultrasonic content. MikeyFresh and Cebolla 2 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Cebolla Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 . . . LSB MQA DRM watermark: We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
FredericV Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Yesterday I was analyzing some Tidal favorites in LMS and running @mansr's mqascan on them, and found something very disturbing. This album ( Julieta (Banda sonora original) ) has one track which is MQA CD, for which the green light on my Mytek also lights up: https://listen.tidal.com/album/58380173 It's the 22th track which is MQA CD. So why is only one track MQA CD, and why is the album not marked MQA? 00000000: MQA signature at bit 8 00000000: [5] datasync magic 36: 0x11319207d stream_pos_flag 1: 0 pad 1: 0 orig_rate 5: 0x00 [44.1 kHz] src_rate 5: 0x00 [44.1 kHz] render_filter 5: 4 unknown_1 2: 0 render_bitdepth 2: 2 [16 bits] unknown_2 4: 0x0 auth_info 4: 0x0 auth_level 4: 0x4 item_count 7: 1 size 8: 0x14 type 8: 0x00 [type 0] stage2_dither 2: 1 gain_index 4: 2 unknown_5 7: 15 unknown_6 7: 127 checksum 4: 0x9 Is Tidal at random replacing redbook by MQA CD? Why do albums have mixed MQA CD / redbook content? The Silencio track BTW is serious dynamic range demo quality, and also a great test for microdetail in percussion ;) Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Welcome to the lovely world of MQA. I'm old enough to remember when MQA Ltd. said MQA would remove all the uncertainty and ensure everyone receives perfect files. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
FredericV Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Welcome to the lovely world of MQA. I'm old enough to remember when MQA Ltd. said MQA would remove all the uncertainty and ensure everyone receives perfect files. They also added one track from a different artist to this album, which may explain the MQA CD ... The 2017 version had 22 tracks. Even more strange why they would do this. Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2020 With all this BS going on, it begs the question: Why would anyone consider Tidal? MikeyFresh, lucretius, sandyk and 1 other 4 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 In the eyes of Warner and MQA the perfect future is a world where only MQA music is available. In the eyes of the audiophile, music hell is only MQA music being available. Your choice of music being eliminated. And having to pay the royalties every step of the way for the "privilege" of being forced into MQA. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 It would be a sad day indeed if the financial backers of MQA were able to force the music consumer into accepting the contaminated brandy that is MQA music. The music consumer should reject MQA altogether and not let themselves be forced into a world of MQA only music. Warner is the spearhead of the effort to force MQA on the music consumer. Boycott Warner. Boycott MQA. Save your ability to choose and not be forced to drink the contaminated brandy. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
lucretius Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 12 hours ago, KeenObserver said: It would be a sad day indeed if the financial backers of MQA were able to force the music consumer into accepting the contaminated brandy that is MQA music. The music consumer should reject MQA altogether and not let themselves be forced into a world of MQA only music. Warner is the spearhead of the effort to force MQA on the music consumer. Boycott Warner. Boycott MQA. Save your ability to choose and not be forced to drink the contaminated brandy. Why boycott just Warner? What about Sony and Universal? mQa is dead! Link to comment
MikeyFresh Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 45 minutes ago, lucretius said: Why boycott just Warner? What about Sony and Universal? I believe because so far only Warner Music Group has had the unmitigated gall to force feed Master Quality Adulterated/Approximated in lieu of previously supplied 16-bit Redbook albums onto a streaming service. I pity the TIDAL subscribers now forced to gag or upchuck (vomit). If one had to guess which label might be next, that would likely be Universal, because they too, just like Warner, are part owned by greedy private equity. Lawyers and accountants reign, along with the Chinese conglomerate Tencent. Sony Music would seem a likely distant 3rd in that race to the bottom, however they too own a stake in MQA, and are thus likely to follow suit if they perceive any semblance of market acceptance. lucretius 1 Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 4, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 4, 2020 1 hour ago, MikeyFresh said: I believe because so far only Warner Music Group has had the unmitigated gall to force feed Master Quality Adulterated/Approximated in lieu of previously supplied 16-bit Redbook albums onto a streaming service. I pity the TIDAL subscribers now forced to gag or upchuck (vomit). If one had to guess which label might be next, that would likely be Universal, because they too, just like Warner, are part owned by greedy private equity. Lawyers and accountants reign, along with the Chinese conglomerate Tencent. Sony Music would seem a likely distant 3rd in that race to the bottom, however they too own a stake in MQA, and are thus likely to follow suit if they perceive any semblance of market acceptance. It's just a matter of time for the other 2 majors is my prediction. Max a year? The real crisis will be when they force services like Qobuz to take MQA because there is nothing else available. The Computer Audiophile and MikeyFresh 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
daverich4 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 10 hours ago, firedog said: It's just a matter of time for the other 2 majors is my prediction. Max a year? The real crisis will be when they force services like Qobuz to take MQA because there is nothing else available. I’d sure like to be in the room when some suit from Warner’s tells Tim Cook what format music Apple is going to stream. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, daverich4 said: I’d sure like to be in the room when some suit from Warner’s tells Tim Cook what format music Apple is going to stream. Would be interesting but what’s Apple’s leverage? Record Kind of Bluish? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
firedog Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 39 minutes ago, daverich4 said: I’d sure like to be in the room when some suit from Warner’s tells Tim Cook what format music Apple is going to stream. Doesn't really apply to Apple, as they are only streaming fully lossless type compression, and not CD or hi res (even in MQA form). I don't expect mp3 type lossless formats to be affected. I'm sure the labels will be happy to keep supplying it. MQA is about preventing consumers from accessing master type quality from 16/44.1 lossless and up. MikeyFresh 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Dr Tone Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 58 minutes ago, firedog said: Doesn't really apply to Apple, as they are only streaming fully lossless type compression, and not CD or hi res (even in MQA form). I don't expect mp3 type lossless formats to be affected. I'm sure the labels will be happy to keep supplying it. MQA is about preventing consumers from accessing master type quality from 16/44.1 lossless and up. Is Apple supplied the lossy files or do they create them? “Mastered for iTunes” makes me think Apple wanted to be sourced pcm files. What if the label decided to start giving them MQA instead? PeterSt 1 Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas Link to comment
firedog Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Dr Tone said: Is Apple supplied the lossy files or do they create them? “Mastered for iTunes” makes me think Apple wanted to be sourced pcm files. What if the label decided to start giving them MQA instead? MQA is a type of PCM; that's why it can be played back without MQA hardware and software. Apple could just compress an unfolded MQA file the same way it does everything else. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Dr Tone Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 52 minutes ago, firedog said: MQA is a type of PCM; that's why it can be played back without MQA hardware and software. Apple could just compress an unfolded MQA file the same way it does everything else. I understand what it is. My point is: would Apple put up a fight if given a lossy PCM file that has been DSPed instead of the real master to create their aac files. Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas Link to comment
dmackta Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 3 hours ago, Dr Tone said: Is Apple supplied the lossy files or do they create them? “Mastered for iTunes” makes me think Apple wanted to be sourced pcm files. What if the label decided to start giving them MQA instead? They get lossless files. And in the case of "Mastered for iTunes" or "Apple Masters" they get 24-bit/44.1 But everything is downgraded to lossy AAC. MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
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