Popular Post firedog Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 8 hours ago, crenca said: An assessment some will say is glass half empty: Two threads were started on the same day at AS (then CA): https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30381-mqa-is-vaporware and https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/ For all the good the first has done and will continue to do, the latter has more views and shows us that the Old Guard status quo still has the majority right where they want them. The latter thread isn't my cup of tea, but it is harmless: It's hobbyists discussing their tweaks to SQ on a hobbyist site. It has little/nothing to do with the "Old Guard" as it doesn't come from the ecosystem of the audio establishment. I don't think there is necessarily any connection/correlation between the participants in that thread and MQA boosters and fanboys in the press and on forums. Iving, The Computer Audiophile, MikeyFresh and 3 others 6 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, firedog said: The latter thread isn't my cup of tea, but it is harmless: It's hobbyists discussing their tweaks to SQ on a hobbyist site. It has little/nothing to do with the "Old Guard" as it doesn't come from the ecosystem of the audio establishment. I don't think there is necessarily any connection/correlation between the participants in that thread and MQA boosters and fanboys in the press and on forums. +100 Iving 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I’m all for making money from one’s product but it should be commensurate with the product’s value to customers. In this case it’s near zero and I’m not sure which side of zero. And yes, what if it was free and nobody wanted it. Wouldn’t surprise me. Nobody would want that as with flac entropy optimizations or blanking of the noise so no entropy is wasted during flac encoding, very similar compression benefits could be reached without MQA, and it would be backwards compatible with any existing FLAC decoder. Such tool could be easily implemented as open source, and does not need the complexity of the crypto / drm / obfuscation parts in MQA. It's like video codecs where the noise is cleaned up first, so there is no entropy wasted on the noise. Netflix is one example that comes to mind, there is almost zero noise in most encodes as it was removed to reduce bandwidth. It's like the blu-ray version of a movie vs the Netflix encode, the netflix version is often artificially clean while the blu-ray version with more noise or grain, adds a lifelike quality. The perfection is in the inperfections - in keeping them in the encode, which both MQA and Netflix encodings try to undo for sake of saving some bandwidth. If MQA was open sourced (which will never happen) nobody would want it. Rt66indierock, Teresa, MikeyFresh and 3 others 3 1 2 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post jcbenten Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: ..., I’d bet the farm that the vast majority aren’t interested in another layer in the process (MQA) that nobody has asked for, other than MQA. ... I would venture to guess that Record Labels (or some anyway) dipped their toes in MQA to see if a DRM scheme would be acceptable. I would say that their "efforts" were half-assed at best. crenca, Rt66indierock, MikeyFresh and 1 other 2 1 1 QNAP TS453Pro w/QLMS->Netgear Switch->Netgear RAX43 Router->Ethernet (50 ft)->Netgear switch->SBTouch ->SABAJ A10d->Linn Majik-IL (preamp)->Linn 2250->Linn Keilidh; Control Points: iPeng (iPad Air & iPhone); Also: Rega P3-24 w/ DV 10x5; OPPO 103; PC Playback: Foobar2000 & JRiver; Portable: iPhone 12 ProMax & Radio Paradise or NAS streaming; Sony NWZ ZX2 w/ PHA-3; SMSL IQ, Fiio Q5, iFi Nano iDSD BL; Garage: Edifier S1000DB Active Speakers Link to comment
crenca Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 8 hours ago, firedog said: The latter thread isn't my cup of tea, but it is harmless: It's hobbyists discussing their tweaks to SQ on a hobbyist site. It has little/nothing to do with the "Old Guard" as it doesn't come from the ecosystem of the audio establishment. I don't think there is necessarily any connection/correlation between the participants in that thread and MQA boosters and fanboys in the press and on forums. I disagree 😎. Audio has a "tragedy of the commons" problem. A runaway subjectivism is not "harmless" and it is not contained to this or that thread, publication, or niche. The Old Guard feeds and is feed by this kind of subjectivism and it is very much part of the "establishment" (particularly the trade publication/review industry) - it all is very strongly correlated. This is the "environment" and ecosystem that enables frauds like MQA to find traction in the first place. Not that this is going to change any time soon (though it is changing with the increasing importance of consumer forums/communication, etc.), but I when assessing MQA and the like I believe it behooves us to be honest about these things. Sonicularity and daverich4 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 hours ago, jcbenten said: I would venture to guess that Record Labels (or some anyway) dipped their toes in MQA to see if a DRM scheme would be acceptable. I would say that their "efforts" were half-assed at best. As the @The Computer Audiophilepointed out multiple times if the labels had chosen to release only in MQA, then it would have been successful. Were there efforts "half-assed" due to their own internal circumstances/incompetence, or did they assess that the market push back would have been too much? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 18 hours ago, ARQuint said: Steven Stone's post includes a 1200 word response from Bob Stuart. Instead of just spewing for five sentences, why don't you critique Stuart's points in a reasoned fashion? Could you? That's what civility looks like. It's been done, repeatedly, in this thread, by multiple members of this forum. And you pointedly have not seen fit to engage any of those substantive critiques, instead staying in the Civility Police lane. So you are complicit in the dynamic you're so intent on criticizing. Sonicularity, maxijazz, Samuel T Cogley and 6 others 5 4 Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 22 hours ago, christopher3393 said: It is interesting that the pro MQA posters who behaved poorly are frequently named and criticized, while those against MQA who behaved poorly are seldom if ever named and the criticisms are vague and brief ---one could say "minimized". Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment to name some of our own shortcomings in this thread, to own them? Who are these few bad apples and how bad were they really? Certainly not nearly as bad as the Shills of Audiophiledom! Thank God there is no hypocrisy among our good membership or one might think there is a social media ethics problem of some sort here. And what on earth is Mr. Connaker on about in claiming there is a problem with so-called "civilty" on the forum, enough so that changes are proposed because of a few very vocal members. Surely not on the paragonal MQA thread! After all, the OP has made clear numerous times that he does not see the "problem" as a problem. And one or two have made clear that they have no issue with banned members returning in disguise, like Anonymous, becaused they were chased off by snitches and civility police. TOS be damned, it is the right thing to do for a higher cause! "AT EVERY DOORWAY before you enter, you should look around, you should take a good look around— for you never know where your enemies might be seated within." --- Havamal Happy New Year, gentlemen. I hear what you're saying, but Brinkman was called out, by name, repeatedly, and eventually was banned from this forum for the behavior you note. So too have I and others called out folks by name (by quoting and responding to their posts), criticizing their overuse of "shill" accusations and their over-reliance on attributing sinister motives to those they disagree with. I appreciate your presence on this forum, and unlike @ARQuint you are not a one-note participant, but IMHO the reason we see an imbalance in criticism and commentary in this thread is simply because among those who care about MQA here, there simply are more who are concerned about it than who are fans of it. Teresa and christopher3393 2 Link to comment
jcbenten Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 33 minutes ago, crenca said: As the @The Computer Audiophilepointed out multiple times if the labels had chosen to release only in MQA, then it would have been successful. Were there efforts "half-assed" due to their own internal circumstances/incompetence, or did they assess that the market push back would have been too much? I am guessing but waiting to see if the MQA could be hacked. @Mansr, @Archimago, and others pretty much did it pretty quick. QNAP TS453Pro w/QLMS->Netgear Switch->Netgear RAX43 Router->Ethernet (50 ft)->Netgear switch->SBTouch ->SABAJ A10d->Linn Majik-IL (preamp)->Linn 2250->Linn Keilidh; Control Points: iPeng (iPad Air & iPhone); Also: Rega P3-24 w/ DV 10x5; OPPO 103; PC Playback: Foobar2000 & JRiver; Portable: iPhone 12 ProMax & Radio Paradise or NAS streaming; Sony NWZ ZX2 w/ PHA-3; SMSL IQ, Fiio Q5, iFi Nano iDSD BL; Garage: Edifier S1000DB Active Speakers Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, tmtomh said: It's been done, repeatedly, in this thread, by multiple members of this forum. And you pointedly have not seen fit to engage any of those substantive critiques, instead staying in the Civility Police lane. So you are complicit in the dynamic you're so intent on criticizing. Perhaps the easiest and best thing to do would be simply to post a pointer to the best of the substantive critiques. That would have the advantages of being efficient, being helpful, and even being civil. It is a ethos that has worked well before. If then, someone does not engage in refutation of any of those points, it is probably safe to assume they have given the critique a lot of thought, and probably agrees with it If they do engage, then maybe they have a point that should be considered. Heck, all I really did was say that the algorithm that MQA uses is new expression of old and pretty basic stuff that everyone learns. They just applied it in a novel marketing way really. That is far from being the start of a new evil empire. And the same tech is used today in other places and systems. I went so far as to say (horrors!) that I preferred the sound of devaluation MQA tracks over what seems to be the equivalent FLAC track. So what? I also prefer the sound of some vinyl tracks over the equivalent FLAC track. Purely subjective listening pleasure. For that I had to endure nearly endless harassment from some people. Even though more than two years ago I expressed that I was concerned with MQA’s potential for DRM. Okay, Audio in all its glory, technical mastery, and even in its silliness, is a passionate subject. Endless discussions about every possible factor, from recording to formats to any kind of payback chain are the normal way things happen. And for most audiophiles, great fun. The few here that have turned this thread into a points game with behavior that is intended solely to use this platform to gain themselves notoriety, well - honestly, I find that rather disgusting. Even though it worked for them, it had a high cost. Civility the word, has as its root the Latin word civilis - meaning citizen. Implying citizenship in a community, which for at least a couple thousand years, has meant orderly and good behavior. Decide for yourself if the behavior here is civilized or barbaric. Buildingl up the community, or tearing it down for the benefit of the few. kumakuma, askat1988, sandyk and 3 others 1 1 2 2 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 19 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Look, one could spend two hours going line by line in poignant out that these 1200 words are nothing but pure pseudo techno babble, half truths, and a fog of vagueness so thick you could cut it with a knife Please, tell me, as you lounge in your ivory tower, exactly what a" modern approach to sampling" is? I would love to know. Who let him into the ivory tower? also: [MQA Lovers] are" talking a lot but they're not saying anything Say it once, why say it again ... I hate people when they're not polite" - David Byrne MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 35 minutes ago, Paul R said: Perhaps the easiest and best thing to do would be simply to post a pointer to the best of the substantive critiques. That would have the advantages of being efficient, being helpful, and even being civil. It is a ethos that has worked well before. If then, someone does not engage in refutation of any of those points, it is probably safe to assume they have given the critique a lot of thought, and probably agrees with it If they do engage, then maybe they have a point that should be considered. Heck, all I really did was say that the algorithm that MQA uses is new expression of old and pretty basic stuff that everyone learns. They just applied it in a novel marketing way really. That is far from being the start of a new evil empire. And the same tech is used today in other places and systems. I went so far as to say (horrors!) that I preferred the sound of devaluation MQA tracks over what seems to be the equivalent FLAC track. So what? I also prefer the sound of some vinyl tracks over the equivalent FLAC track. Purely subjective listening pleasure. For that I had to endure nearly endless harassment from some people. Even though more than two years ago I expressed that I was concerned with MQA’s potential for DRM. Okay, Audio in all its glory, technical mastery, and even in its silliness, is a passionate subject. Endless discussions about every possible factor, from recording to formats to any kind of payback chain are the normal way things happen. And for most audiophiles, great fun. The few here that have turned this thread into a points game with behavior that is intended solely to use this platform to gain themselves notoriety, well - honestly, I find that rather disgusting. Even though it worked for them, it had a high cost. Civility the word, has as its root the Latin word civilis - meaning citizen. Implying citizenship in a community, which for at least a couple thousand years, has meant orderly and good behavior. Decide for yourself if the behavior here is civilized or barbaric. Buildingl up the community, or tearing it down for the benefit of the few. I don't know what you consider the community. In the final analysis, MQA presents no benefits to the music consumer. The music consumer will pay for each step of the MQA "ecosystem" that is implemented. And, for thousands of years there has been scam artists willing to victimize those looking for something better. The community should be able to point out the scam artists. It is to their benefit. Ralf11, Teresa, MrMoM and 1 other 2 2 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 I can't help noticing that @ARQuint seems to be in this thread a lot more since Lee Scoggins became his new boss. I'm sure it's a pure coincidence. 🙂 Rt66indierock, Sonicularity, lucretius and 6 others 4 1 1 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Sonicularity Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said: I can't help noticing that @ARQuint seems to be in this thread a lot more since Lee Scoggins became his new boss. I'm sure it's a pure coincidence. 🙂 It's crazy like a third "fold" improving sound quality of an MQA file. Samuel T Cogley, MikeyFresh, esldude and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 15 hours ago, Sonicularity said: It's crazy like a third "fold" improving sound quality of an MQA file. As crazy as MQA evangelists who still have incorrect information on their website, showing plots of a third fold, which off course does not exists:http://thehbproject.com/nl/artikelen/38/6/MQA---Kwaliteitsgarantie MikeyFresh, Shadders and MrMoM 2 1 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 There seems to be a recent resurgence of people that want to point out that MQA critics are an unwashed bunch of uncivil heathens. These people are anointed from on high and know better than us. We should just accept their pronouncements. After all, MQA is a new paradigm more magnificent than the discoveries of Copernicus! I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Is there any way of finding out if MQA Ltd has received the funding that it said it was expecting by the end of November in order to stay solvent? I would like to know if MQA Ltd still poses a threat to the music consumer. Ralf11, MikeyFresh and MrMoM 3 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 They are trying to kill the messenger. The reason is that they have no other defenses. crenca, Sonicularity, Shadders and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 If MQA Ltd has received further funding, then this resurgence would make sense to me. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted January 2, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, KeenObserver said: If MQA Ltd has received further funding, then this resurgence would make sense to me. Or a shoe may be dropping on the high end audio press. MrMoM, Thuaveta and crenca 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Thuaveta Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 28 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: Or a shoe may be dropping on the high end audio press. troubleahead and Samuel T Cogley 2 Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted January 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2020 Was that a RMAF seminar? k-man, MikeyFresh, Patrick Cleasby and 8 others 1 10 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted January 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 3, 2020 If only we had a technology that could use lossy compression, because this 200 Gbps fiber just sucks. Its slated 600 Gbps speed will also be just way to slow for high resolution two channel audio. https://www.inverse.com/amp/article/61909-a-fiber-optic-breakthrough-could-bring-superfast-internet-to-remote-areas Samuel T Cogley, Shadders, Rt66indierock and 2 others 1 2 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Currawong Posted January 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 8:53 AM, ARQuint said: A reasoned response would be countering his "facts" and conclusions with yours. Quote We have close relationships with the archive and supply teams in the labels, we converged on process and workflow to give the very best shot at encoding the 'definitive Master'. We include considerable QA analysis in the encoder that tries to catch technical errors including up/down-sampling or scaling, watermarks, etc. When invited to do so (for important releases or re-releases), we have an armoury of tools that can help us identify or actually 'drill back' to the 'definitive sound' and, in some cases, remove technical artefacts of the historical processes used. We trust the Labels, mistakes are found and quickly corrected. No-one is trying to be evil. Furthermore, we make no judgment on the master, but we do address technical flaws and use modern sampling methods so that the sound in the studio is reproduced. Here's a good example. We know, for a fact that you cannot completely remove distortion caused by these things from digital music. If that's not true, I'd really like to see the papers written with proofs showing how it's done. It's funny he says "No-one is trying to be evil". Only lie repeatedly I guess. On 1/1/2020 at 9:02 AM, Paul R said: It would be delightful to see a few of the most annoying folks brought to heel. Not the ones who seriously disagree, but the loud ones whoseyyyyggg major contributions to any discussion are immediate attempts to control the discussion, shut down any non confirming discussion, and harrass those they consider heretics. If tat brings u an imaeof torches and pitchforks, then I wrote this pretty well. While I might agree, another point of view is that people were losing their temper against those people who kept coming into the MQA threads and repeating what has been proven to be BS (bovine excrement, not Bob Stuart) and refusing to address the facts presented to them. If there was any arguable error in this, it was, IMHO, that the reasons for their beliefs were because of advertising money that their publications receive (in the case of people like Scoggins). I believe it was because the members of the trade publications are good friends with many in the industry, even those people whose design ideas are questionable, and their response is more likely the result of defending friends being maligned after being treated to what was to them, an initially impressive audio demo. On 1/1/2020 at 9:32 AM, The Computer Audiophile said: I’m currently on vacation, so will not go into detail. But, Bob’s points have all been debunked several times. I don’t believe people want to waste their own time to wack the mole in another location. I forgot what I was going to reply to this. 😂 Oh, I was suddenly reminded of this classic: On 1/2/2020 at 4:25 AM, Paul R said: Heck, all I really did was say that the algorithm that MQA uses is new expression of old and pretty basic stuff that everyone learns. They just applied it in a novel marketing way really. That is far from being the start of a new evil empire. And the same tech is used today in other places and systems. I went so far as to say (horrors!) that I preferred the sound of devaluation MQA tracks over what seems to be the equivalent FLAC track. So what? I also prefer the sound of some vinyl tracks over the equivalent FLAC track. Purely subjective listening pleasure. All Archimago, mansr, crenca and others did was point out that the existing "evil empires" wanted to try and use this to control music delivery, and that what MQA promised was actually a bunch of lies. 😉 kumakuma and MikeyFresh 2 Link to comment
sandyk Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, Currawong said: Here's a good example. We know, for a fact that you cannot completely remove distortion caused by these things from digital music. If that's not true, I'd really like to see the papers written with proofs showing how it's done. John Dyson is already demonstrating that it IS indeed possible to remove most of these distortion artifacts, and he may even be well ahead of MQA in this area. In fact, some of his corrected RBCD tracks from non decoded or improperly decoded Dolby A material, end up sounding as good, if not better than many modern High Resolution releases ! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post Currawong Posted January 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 minute ago, sandyk said: John Dyson is already demonstrating that it IS indeed possible to remove most of these distortion artifacts, and may even be well ahead of MQA in this area. In fact, some of his corrected RBCD tracks from non decoded or improperly decoded Dolby A material, end up sounding as good, if not better than many modern High Resolution releases ! I was thinking about John's work, but recall how Stereophile stated in 2016: "By all appearances, the MQA revolution is poised to do for the music industry what the latest Star Wars blockbuster is doing for movies. MQA may not be the final frontier, but it is scrubbing clean decades worth of digital files beset with temporal blur (timing errors) and quantization distortion and computational-induced noise." all of which was subsequently shown to be impossible. While Bob's words that I posted above are more reserved than they were, he has instead resorted to suitably undefined terms such as the "the definitive sound", and this after trying to re-define "lossless" as something that isn't lossless. crenca, Jud and MikeyFresh 2 1 Link to comment
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