Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted December 31, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 12 hours ago, tmtomh said: I agree that progress is being made on the civility front. However, I also agree with those who say that you continue to misrepresent the conversation in this thread. Yes, there have been many antagonistic comments, some justified IMHO and some gratuitous and unnecessary. And there also have been many, many important, substantive comments that have brought information to light that would not have come out otherwise - and that despite your and others' steadfast refusal to admit it, clearly influenced the mainstream audiophile press and clearly played a role in some of the moderate walking-back of the earlier uncritical euphoria over MQA. But most importantly, there's a third part of the conversation in this thread, and your repeated ignoring of it speaks volumes: the many, many posts by Lee Scoggins and several others that endlessly repeated MQA marketing lingo and technical talking points. These were not opinions to be disagreed with. Rather, they were demonstrably false claims, often contradicted by MQA reps' own statements. When someone keeps saying over and over and over that MQA is not lossy - and then finally "admits" it's lossy by saying. "it doesn't matter that it's lossy," that's not a disagreeable opinion - that's unaccountable, bad-faith behavior, and it doesn't deserve a civil response. And it's disingenuous in the extreme for you to keep banging the civility drum without calling out - or heck, just mentioning once - the shifty, bad-faith approach taken by Lee and some others in support of MQA. Unless or until you acknowledge that, you're not likely to find much of a welcoming reception here. You can of course continue to chalk that up the horrid incivility of members here, but to do that you have to ignore the many of us who are pro-civility and anti-MQA, and I would hope you'd not want to adopt such a simplistic and lazy posture here. Don't forget Andy now works for Lee Scoggins. MrMoM, Ralf11, MikeyFresh and 4 others 3 1 3 Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 Another article which tries to weaken those who have debunked MQA, and try to lead the reader back to the canned articles from MQA? Quote All of these are examples of not trusting that MQA is what it claims to be, even though there are "White Papers" by Bob Stuart that demystify the process. https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/what-does-master-quality-mean-to-me-or-you.html mansr, Thuaveta, The Computer Audiophile and 2 others 1 4 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
firedog Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 35 minutes ago, FredericV said: Another article which tries to weaken those who have debunked MQA, and try to lead the reader back to the canned articles from MQA? https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/what-does-master-quality-mean-to-me-or-you.html It's pretty much a nothing blog piece that says nothing other than "let's just enjoy the music". Not really about MQA. Waste of a web page. Rt66indierock 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 OMG! Is MQA making a new drive? Is this why MQA critics (TRUTHERS) are being labeled "uncivil". Please tell me we are not going to go through another cycle of this BS. Seems like people are laying the groundwork to eliminate MQA critics. The Computer Audiophile and MikeyFresh 1 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post christopher3393 Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 It is interesting that the pro MQA posters who behaved poorly are frequently named and criticized, while those against MQA who behaved poorly are seldom if ever named and the criticisms are vague and brief ---one could say "minimized". Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment to name some of our own shortcomings in this thread, to own them? Who are these few bad apples and how bad were they really? Certainly not nearly as bad as the Shills of Audiophiledom! Thank God there is no hypocrisy among our good membership or one might think there is a social media ethics problem of some sort here. And what on earth is Mr. Connaker on about in claiming there is a problem with so-called "civilty" on the forum, enough so that changes are proposed because of a few very vocal members. Surely not on the paragonal MQA thread! After all, the OP has made clear numerous times that he does not see the "problem" as a problem. And one or two have made clear that they have no issue with banned members returning in disguise, like Anonymous, becaused they were chased off by snitches and civility police. TOS be damned, it is the right thing to do for a higher cause! "AT EVERY DOORWAY before you enter, you should look around, you should take a good look around— for you never know where your enemies might be seated within." --- Havamal Happy New Year, gentlemen. Paul R and daverich4 2 Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, christopher3393 said: It is interesting that the pro MQA posters who behaved poorly are frequently named and criticized, while those against MQA who behaved poorly are seldom if ever named and the criticisms are vague and brief ---one could say "minimized". Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment to name some of our own shortcomings in this thread, to own them? Who are these few bad apples and how bad were they really? Certainly not nearly as bad as the Shills of Audiophiledom! Thank God there is no hypocrisy among our good membership or one might think there is a social media ethics problem of some sort here. And what on earth is Mr. Connaker on about in claiming there is a problem with so-called "civilty" on the forum, enough so that changes are proposed because of a few very vocal members. Surely not on the paragonal MQA thread! After all, the OP has made clear numerous times that he does not see the "problem" as a problem. And one or two have made clear that they have no issue with banned members returning in disguise, like Anonymous, becaused they were chased off by snitches and civility police. TOS be damned, it is the right thing to do for a higher cause! "AT EVERY DOORWAY before you enter, you should look around, you should take a good look around— for you never know where your enemies might be seated within." --- Havamal Happy New Year, gentlemen. how have those who call out MQA "behaved badly"? In your opinion? Who cares what you think. Lying, ignoring facts, contesting verified scientific data, and disingenuous contact only deserves smash mouth responses. If you don't like it, tough. daverich4 1 Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 3 hours ago, FredericV said: Another article which tries to weaken those who have debunked MQA, and try to lead the reader back to the canned articles from MQA? https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/what-does-master-quality-mean-to-me-or-you.html Steve Stone is laughable, has zero credibility, and is clearly desperate writing for such a bottom feeding website. Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 Getting this back on track. One has to wonder why the posts about Bob Stuart and Peter Craven in the last few days. MQA is not making headway in the market. How do you listen to MQA files five years after the splashy introduction? In my case Tidal and a few download sites. I certainly will question why the press gave it so much attention. Raising a good question about the real influence of the audio press. Should be a good way to start the new year. crenca 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said: I certainly will question why the press gave it so much attention. Raising a good question about the real influence of the audio press. An assessment some will say is glass half empty: Two threads were started on the same day at AS (then CA): https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30381-mqa-is-vaporware and https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/ For all the good the first has done and will continue to do, the latter has more views and shows us that the Old Guard status quo still has the majority right where they want them. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post ARQuint Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: how have those who call out MQA "behaved badly"? In your opinion? Who cares what you think. Lying, ignoring facts, contesting verified scientific data, and disingenuous contact only deserves smash mouth responses. If you don't like it, tough. Steven Stone's post includes a 1200 word response from Bob Stuart. Instead of just spewing for five sentences, why don't you critique Stuart's points in a reasoned fashion? Could you? That's what civility looks like. daverich4, Ralf11, MikeyFresh and 3 others 2 2 2 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, ARQuint said: That's what civility looks like What would be civil is for you Mr. Quint to admit the failure of you and your publication (and your industry) to get anything right about MQA. Ralf11, Shadders, mansr and 2 others 2 2 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, ARQuint said: Steven Stone's post includes a 1200 word response from Bob Stuart. Instead of just spewing for five sentences, why don't you critique Stuart's points in a reasoned fashion? Could you? That's what civility looks like. Oh yes, I read his response with great interest. It was total and utter fantasy, with, literally an alternate reality. All that needs to be highlighted is "where labels or artists are working with MQA during the production process (recording, mixing and mastering), MQA can work with the real definitive Master at point of creation". That is literally garbage pulled out of thin air. and better yet- "There is a strong support from professional recording and mastering engineers for the sonic benefits and ‘Authentication’ in MQA. Finally, MQA is not a 'filter', this has been refuted many times in Q&A materials and perpetuating the myth reflects either a lack of expertise, an inability to read, or just mischief!" Again a total and utter fantasy. crenca, MikeyFresh, Thuaveta and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment
Popular Post ARQuint Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Oh yes, I read his response with great interest. It was total and utter fantasy, with, literally an alternate reality. All that needs to be highlighted is "where labels or artists are working with MQA during the production process (recording, mixing and mastering), MQA can work with the real definitive Master at point of creation". That is literally garbage pulled out of thin air. and better yet- "There is a strong support from professional recording and mastering engineers for the sonic benefits and ‘Authentication’ in MQA. Finally, MQA is not a 'filter', this has been refuted many times in Q&A materials and perpetuating the myth reflects either a lack of expertise, an inability to read, or just mischief!" Again a total and utter fantasy. Would you please look at the two sentences you wrote reacting to the pair of quotations you extracted from Bob Stuart's post? They are not a reasoned response. A reasoned response would be countering his "facts" and conclusions with yours. That's what Archimago would do, that's what Chris would do. [Sigh] Happy New Year to all, friend and foe. AQ daverich4 and sandyk 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted December 31, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, ARQuint said: Would you please look at the two sentences you wrote reacting to the pair of quotations you extracted from Bob Stuart's post? They are not a reasoned response. A reasoned response would be countering his "facts" and conclusions with yours. That's what Archimago would do, that's what Chris would do. [Sigh] Happy New Year to all, friend and foe. AQ BS's "facts" have been refuted dozens of times already in this thread. What would be the value of doing it again? esldude, mansr, MikeyFresh and 6 others 5 2 2 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/24/2019 at 12:19 PM, The Computer Audiophile said: The science is great. I agree Paul. I really wish it was possible to get where we are without the incivility. I believe we would’ve got here way quicker without the incivility. Some of the personalities are abrasive and I’d prefer they acted differently, but I’d never say they are ruining the whole audiophile world. Oh, I think perhaps you underestimate the impact you have had on the audiophile world at large Chris, not just computer audiophiles, though other than vinyl there are not many other sources of fine audio today that are not digital. Definitely you were far ahead of the pack there. Honestly the lack of civility from the clique in the MQA thread is a well discussed subject in a lot of audiophile circles. I would bet someone has clapped you on the shoulder and commiserated about the tough job you have riding herd on this bunch - more than once or twice. 🙃 It would be delightful to see a few of the most annoying folks brought to heel. Not the ones who seriously disagree, but the loud ones whoseyyyyggg major contributions to any discussion are immediate attempts to control the discussion, shut down any non confirming discussion, and harrass those they consider heretics. If tat brings u an imaeof torches and pitchforks, then I wrote this pretty well. Just my thinking, YMMV, etc. Ishmael Slapowitz, sandyk, Ralf11 and 3 others 1 1 1 1 2 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Paul R Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, kumakuma said: BS's "facts" have been refuted dozens of times already in this thread. What would be the value of doing it again? What value is there is nasty attacks, personal or otherwise? sandyk, askat1988 and Ishmael Slapowitz 1 1 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 Just now, Paul R said: What value is there is nasty attacks, personal or otherwise? Did I say there was? Ralf11, sandyk, Shadders and 2 others 1 1 2 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Popular Post Ishmael Slapowitz Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, ARQuint said: Would you please look at the two sentences you wrote reacting to the pair of quotations you extracted from Bob Stuart's post? They are not a reasoned response. A reasoned response would be countering his "facts" and conclusions with yours. That's what Archimago would do, that's what Chris would do. [Sigh] Happy New Year to all, friend and foe. AQ Look, one could spend two hours going line by line in poignant out that these 1200 words are nothing but pure pseudo techno babble, half truths, and a fog of vagueness so thick you could cut it with a knife Please, tell me, as you lounge in your ivory tower, exactly what a" modern approach to sampling" is? I would love to know. Shadders, MikeyFresh and mansr 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 29 minutes ago, ARQuint said: They are not a reasoned response. A reasoned response would be countering his "facts" That's exactly what he did!! Bob asserted: A: that when MQA is there in the middle of the recording/mixing/mastering, that this in-of-itself allow's MQA to be the "authenticator" and a real "Master" is thus created B: usual marketing speak (actually, it's so untrue it's a con game) about 'filtering', 'strong support', etc. Both of these assertions are factually untrue and have been "proven" with reason over and over again on this thread and elsewhere to be untrue. Bob is speaking pure fantasy. Fantasy is the technical term for what he is saying. Yet, you not only demand us to refute these assertions for the 1 millionth time, but you claim if we don't spoon feed this to you yet again we are the ones being unreasonable and uncivil. On the contrary Mr. Quint, YOU are the uncivil one, the unreasonable one in this thread. Ishmael Slapowitz, kumakuma, Shadders and 5 others 2 6 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, ARQuint said: Steven Stone's post includes a 1200 word response from Bob Stuart. Instead of just spewing for five sentences, why don't you critique Stuart's points in a reasoned fashion? Could you? That's what civility looks like. I’m currently on vacation, so will not go into detail. But, Bob’s points have all been debunked several times. I don’t believe people want to waste their own time to wack the mole in another location. In these days of releasing music to streaming services right after it’s created and the freedom of distribution afforded to artists, I’d bet the farm that the vast majority aren’t interested in another layer in the process (MQA) that nobody has asked for, other than MQA. Rhetorical question, if MQA Ltd stopped its push on all fronts, do you think the product would die? If yes, then there is no demand, no need, and no interest in MQA. If the product is that good, these advertorials wouldn’t be necessary every few months. FredericV, kumakuma, ARQuint and 15 others 15 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Thuaveta Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, ARQuint said: Instead of just spewing for five sentences, why don't you critique Stuart's points in a reasoned fashion? Because of Brandolini's law. 1 hour ago, ARQuint said: That's what civility looks like. No it isn't. Being suckered into wasting (more) time to counter bullshit is not being civil: it's being a sucker, since by even treating the con as a valid hypothesis, you're reinforcing it. It's also giving a con man more importance than he's worth. crenca, esldude, MikeyFresh and 5 others 2 2 4 Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Paul R said: Oh, I think perhaps you underestimate the impact you have had on the audiophile world at large Chris, not just computer audiophiles, though other than vinyl there are not many other sources of fine audio today that are not digital. Definitely you were far ahead of the pack there. Honestly the lack of civility from the clique in the MQA thread is a well discussed subject in a lot of audiophile circles. I would bet someone has clapped you on the shoulder and commiserated about the tough job you have riding herd on this bunch - more than once or twice. 🙃 It would be delightful to see a few of the most annoying folks brought to heel. Not the ones who seriously disagree, but the loud ones whoseyyyyggg major contributions to any discussion are immediate attempts to control the discussion, shut down any non confirming discussion, and harrass those they consider heretics. If tat brings u an imaeof torches and pitchforks, then I wrote this pretty well. Just my thinking, YMMV, etc. I have to agree with you. There have been uncivil moments in this thread. Take the following quote: "You actions certainly suggest you and a few others here definitely have an agenda. I wish you well, but doing bad things like you are doing will inevitably lead to unpleasant consequences. That isn't a threat by the way, just a prediction. Have a nice life. " Very uncivil! What do you think? Should that person be brought to heel? Thuaveta, askat1988, esldude and 4 others 1 1 4 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
esldude Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I’m currently on vacation, so will not go into detail. But, Bob’s points have all been debunked several times. I don’t believe people want to waste their own time to wack the mole in another location. In these days of releasing music to streaming services right after it’s created and the freedom of distribution afforded to artists, I’d bet the farm that the vast majority aren’t interested in another layer in the process (MQA) that nobody has asked for, other than MQA. Rhetorical question, if MQA Ltd stopped its push on all fronts, do you think the product would die? If yes, then there is no demand, no need, and no interest in MQA. If the product is that good, these advertorials wouldn’t be necessary every few months. or what if MQA were free. What if the company just said, "hey, we like music, we think it is important music is well presented, so we are open sourcing MQA for everyone to use freely. Just so the world can benefit for our research." They give up on profiting from it, and make it a gift to the world. Then if no one wants it ............. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, esldude said: or what if MQA were free. What if the company just said, "hey, we like music, we think it is important music is well presented, so we are open sourcing MQA for everyone to use freely. Just so the world can benefit for our research." They give up on profiting from it, and make it a gift to the world. Then if no one wants it ............. I’m all for making money from one’s product but it should be commensurate with the product’s value to customers. In this case it’s near zero and I’m not sure which side of zero. And yes, what if it was free and nobody wanted it. Wouldn’t surprise me. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted January 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 1, 2020 12 hours ago, christopher3393 said: tI is interesting that the pro MQA posters who behaved poorly are frequently named and criticized, while those against MQA who behaved poorly are seldom if ever named and the criticisms are vague and brief ---one could say "minimized". Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment to name some of our own shortcomings in this thread, to own them? Who are these few bad apples and how bad were they really? Certainly not nearly as bad as the Shills of Audiophiledom! Uh, is this based on some factual analysis of the thread or just your subjective-prejudiced impressions? Your post is just another example of a "civility" post that's actually off topic and contributes nothing to the thread other than to derail it. MikeyFresh, Thuaveta, Shadders and 3 others 4 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
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