MQA is Vaporware

[mansr]

You guys are talking at cross purposes. Look at what Jim Austin wrote again (emphasis mine):

"After I'd finished with my listening, dCS alerted me to a possible error in my methodology: Grouped zones in Roon may not be bit-perfect. If the two DACs aren't both receiving the same, unaltered data, the test is invalid. But in my case, the data apparently were bit-perfect: When I played an MQA file through each of two grouped zones to both MQA-enabled DACs, both indicated that they were decoding MQA"

 

This isn't about authentication or possible ways of faking it. It's simply a quick test to see if Roon is messing with the data. Since the DACs still detect the streams as MQA, the top 16 bits have not been touched. Yes, if Roon had zapped the low 8 bits without using dither, the DACs would still indicated MQA. Is there any reason to believe Roon would be doing this or something even more convoluted in order to trick an MQA DAC into turning on the blue light? I don't think so. It is therefore a reasonable, if not bomb proof, test of bit-perfect transport.

 

The strength of the authentication isn't relevant here since, presumably, nobody is actively trying to trick it.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

You guys are talking at cross purposes. Look at what Jim Austin wrote again (emphasis mine):

"After I'd finished with my listening, dCS alerted me to a possible error in my methodology: Grouped zones in Roon may not be bit-perfect. If the two DACs aren't both receiving the same, unaltered data, the test is invalid. But in my case, the data apparently were bit-perfect: When I played an MQA file through each of two grouped zones to both MQA-enabled DACs, both indicated that they were decoding MQA"

 

This isn't about authentication or possible ways of faking it. It's simply a quick test to see if Roon is messing with the data. Since the DACs still detect the streams as MQA, the top 16 bits have not been touched. Yes, if Roon had zapped the low 8 bits without using dither, the DACs would still indicated MQA. Is there any reason to believe Roon would be doing this or something even more convoluted in order to trick an MQA DAC into turning on the blue light? I don't think so. It is therefore a reasonable, if not bomb proof, test of bit-perfect transport.

 

The strength of the authentication isn't relevant here since, presumably, nobody is actively trying to trick it.

+100

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

You guys are talking at cross purposes. Look at what Jim Austin wrote again (emphasis mine):

"After I'd finished with my listening, dCS alerted me to a possible error in my methodology: Grouped zones in Roon may not be bit-perfect. If the two DACs aren't both receiving the same, unaltered data, the test is invalid. But in my case, the data apparently were bit-perfect: When I played an MQA file through each of two grouped zones to both MQA-enabled DACs, both indicated that they were decoding MQA"

 

This isn't about authentication or possible ways of faking it. It's simply a quick test to see if Roon is messing with the data. Since the DACs still detect the streams as MQA, the top 16 bits have not been touched. Yes, if Roon had zapped the low 8 bits without using dither, the DACs would still indicated MQA. Is there any reason to believe Roon would be doing this or something even more convoluted in order to trick an MQA DAC into turning on the blue light? I don't think so. It is therefore a reasonable, if not bomb proof, test of bit-perfect transport.

 

The strength of the authentication isn't relevant here since, presumably, nobody is actively trying to trick it.

 

I was talking just about that the authentication does not detect certain kinds of of tampering.  I don't think there's any dispute about that.

[mansr]

17 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I was talking just about that the authentication does not detect certain kinds of of tampering.  I don't think there's any dispute about that.

There is not. In fact, it is an advertised feature.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

3 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I was talking just about that the authentication does not detect certain kinds of of tampering.  I don't think there's any dispute about that.

It really bogged the mind why Stereophile, and dCS, for that matter, would waste so much time on MQA when it is available from one source, Tidal, and it has been soundly rejected by Qobuz and Amazon HD.

[Samuel T Cogley]

21 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

It really bogged the mind why Stereophile, and dCS, for that matter, would waste so much time on MQA when it is available from one source, Tidal, and it has been soundly rejected by Qobuz and Amazon HD.

 

Can we really characterize high-end HiFi as a growth sector?  I'm thinking that luxury manufacturers like dCS need to check the "we decode everything" box just to maintain sales.  I've listened to a Vivaldi DAC (playing PCM) and liked it.  No way it was worth the outlay, but it was pleasant to listen to.

 

The Old Guard audiophile publications must at least appear to cater to the luxury sector.  So their interest in MQA is logical.  Is it pro-consumer? No way!

[FredericV]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Sure, but that's a science project that no end user will undertake just to see if the authentication light will still illuminate.

I learned a lot:

1. sox can also create fake content, given the filter in my signature with one cycle of post-ringing

A variant of this filter is also used by Ayre.

2. sox can also do much better, such as Archimago's goldilocks filter, which I included in a free software update. It blows away all these filters with one cycle of post-ringing and aliasing. More natural, and more close to bitperfect soundwise (tested on a very expensive Aries Cerat system), and personally my favorite upsampler.

3. truncating a 24 bit MQA file to 16 bit (or messing with the bottom 8 bits) and running it through an MQA decoder:

- the blue light still shines
- MQA is still generating fake aliased content, even though the hi-res part is technically gone or manipulated

- the non-technical user will still believe it's hi-res because of the blue light shine

They could use this trick for MQA CD and those looking at spectrum may be deluded to think it's hi-res because they see something above the usual redbook spectrum.
 

 

[KeenObserver]

32 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

It really bogged the mind why Stereophile, and dCS, for that matter, would waste so much time on MQA when it is available from one source, Tidal, and it has been soundly rejected by Qobuz and Amazon HD.

 

Stereophile has no choice but to play the hand out.  Otherwise they are seen as shills by people other than the ones that already know.

[FredericV]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

There is not. In fact, it is an advertised feature.

Indeed:

 

Truncated to 16 bits and decoded (with the data gone, there's not much to decode ...)

[KeenObserver]

It is Friday night, October four, in London, and still no financial posting.

[KeenObserver]

The code to turn the blue light on is probably the most prosecuted part of the NDA. Turning on the blue light is the most important part of MQA.  Without the blue light there would be absolutely no benefit to the end user.

With the blue light the head of the family can gather the entire family together, put his arms around them, and say: "Look family, the blue light is on".

[crenca]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

...dCS alerted me to a possible error in my methodology: Grouped zones in Roon may not be bit-perfect...

 

 

When I saw this I thought to myself what a coincidence, some peculiar/odd "problem" supposedly exists (there is no inherent reason Roon would not be bitperfect zoning, that is playing back to multiple endpoints) and guess what, MQA just happens to offer a solution and Stereophile gets to talk about this anti-consumer zombie format once again...talk about "playing the hand out", scraping the bottom of the barrel, etc. etc.

[FredericV]

9 hours ago, KeenObserver said:

"Look family, the blue light is on".

We need to block the blue light

https://www.blockbluelight.com.au/

[Currawong]

 

15 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

The Old Guard audiophile publications must at least appear to cater to the luxury sector.  So their interest in MQA is logical.  Is it pro-consumer? No way!

 

I think this the crux of the issue. I was talking to a dealer here in Japan the other day about MQA and he was talking about how the only people who buy MQA CDs were old audiophiles who wanted their "high res" without having to deal with a computer.

 

The real issue is the one below (along with the forum not allowing me to put my cursor after the quote), not whether or not MQA's authentication can potentially be BS. "Bit perfect MQA" is rather like saying "A perfect fake".

 

15 hours ago, FredericV said:

MQA is still generating fake aliased content, even though the hi-res part is technically gone or manipulated

[Archimago]

2 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

I think this the crux of the issue. I was talking to a dealer here in Japan the other day about MQA and he was talking about how the only people who buy MQA CDs were old audiophiles who wanted their "high res" without having to deal with a computer.

 

 

Did the dealer indicate how well those MQA-CD releases are selling? I bet the blue light shining would be much more reassuring than just a label on the box saying XRCD, UHQCD, Blu-Spec...!

 

[wdw]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:40 AM, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

that is the the point...Jim Austin, the editor of Stereophile, put something in print that is simply untrue. And how does that serve the consumer?

 

. 

 

[Currawong]

16 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Did the dealer indicate how well those MQA-CD releases are selling? I bet the blue light shining would be much more reassuring than just a label on the box saying XRCD, UHQCD, Blu-Spec...!

 

 

I didn't ask. I don't know what is going on within the Japanese hi-fi scene. With the Tokyo show coming up I'll ask. 

[Archimago]

9 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

I didn't ask. I don't know what is going on within the Japanese hi-fi scene. With the Tokyo show coming up I'll ask. 

 

That would be very interesting @Currawong! Not just about MQA but also thoughts about the cultural differences among audiophiles. With streaming becoming (or is already) a majority chunk of music consumption the disparity with physical content purchasing especially as we've heard in Japan is interesting...

 

Enjoy the Tokyo Show and hope you let us know what's going on in that part of the world!

 

[botrytis]

Went to 2 audio dealers in Omaha this weekend and it was interesting to see them using Qobuz, just digital or CD's. They both got rid of Tidal as the sq was not up to Qobuz (their words not mine). One was using Aurender but has not updated their player yet and didn't plan to do it.

 

It will be interesting to hear more about the Japanese and Chinese markets.

[labjr]

I'm kind of surprised there's two audio dealers in Omaha? I couldn't name two audio dealers in Boston area.

[daverich4]

There’s only one in Charlotte and about 2/3 of the store is Home Theatre. 

[botrytis]

3 hours ago, labjr said:

I'm kind of surprised there's two audio dealers in Omaha? I couldn't name two audio dealers in Boston area.

 

There are 3 in Omaha. There are 2 in Ann Arbor, MI. There are even 2 in Des Moines.

[Shadders]

Hi,

Is it possible for someone to modify RBCD to add 8 bits, and implement the relevant bit manipulation to light the MQA blue LED, and then sell it at an MQA premium price ?

 

I cannot see how MQA could police it, unless they downloaded files from many of the sites to check ?

 

Also - could people actually hear the difference ?. Who can really hear the last 8bits from a 24bit file ?

 

Will peoples expectation bias mean the blue light convinces them of the difference ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[mansr]

8 hours ago, Shadders said:

Is it possible for someone to modify RBCD to add 8 bits, and implement the relevant bit manipulation to light the MQA blue LED, and then sell it at an MQA premium price ?

A modified CD format with 24-bit samples could of course be created, but it would need new players. To fake the authentication, you need the secret signing key, and you'll have to pry that out of Bob's cold, dead hands.

[KeenObserver]

Interesting!

 

"Accounts overdue".