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MQA is Vaporware

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51 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

I think it is more complicated, in that Amir is a bit of a "measurement bully".  He makes strong claims of "better" or "worse" based on a questionable philosophical interpretation of SINAD and such.  In other words, he does not have the balance right.  So when his explicit "audio science" position is so obviously contradicted by his MQA stance, well folks pounce on the bully...

I've reservations about SINAD being as prominent as it is in Amir's reviews.  I've expressed that to him as have a few others.  

 

The envelope of balance on such things is written with a thick crayon and not a fine thin line from an engineering pencil.  

 

Someone recently tried to get James Johnston (J_J) to say what SINAD would be sure to be transparent.  His reply was -110 db might do it.  So the other person then wasn't happy thinking less might be transparent.  And I think J_J would agree, but it gets complicated and depends on details of the "error spectrum" according to him.  I think Amir prefers to look for gear with impeccable measurements and then it becomes a non-issue.   I think there is gear with a SINAD of only 80 db which is just fine to listen to and others with the same number that would not be.  Choosing between those gets more complex.  Getting better than 80 db on that test isn't that expensive anymore in most cases.  I'd certainly consider expensive gear that doesn't do better than that a bad value.  

 

A recent apparently controversial review he did of a $6k DAC that only managed 75 db on SINAD is one I think should be called out.  It not only had rather high distortion it had a long string of higher order harmonics.  You might get by with a low basic noise floor and moderately high 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, but a device which is both noisy, and has high harmonic distortion and it extends out several harmonics is not a good device.  You can spend that same $6k for something better, or get something better for much less.  If people like it then fine, but it simply is very poor performance in terms of fidelity.  If that is a measurement bully, then fine.  The device had other issues at low frequencies even worse.  

 

My apologies for getting so far off topic.  I'll stop being off topic now. 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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17 minutes ago, esldude said:

Someone recently tried to get James Johnston (J_J) to say what SINAD would be sure to be transparent.  His reply was -110 db might do it.  So the other person then wasn't happy thinking less might be transparent.  And I think J_J would agree, but it gets complicated and depends on details of the "error spectrum" according to him.  I think Amir prefers to look for gear with impeccable measurements and then it becomes a non-issue.   I think there is gear with a SINAD of only 80 db which is just fine to listen to and others with the same number that would not be.  Choosing between those gets more complex.  

 

What do you think a delta/null value is between the original source file and one captured from the output of a DAC? ;)

 

If you correct for amplitude and phase errors before nulling, as you can with DeltaWave, you get the more complex SINAD value for a musical recording. That is, RMS value of all the noise and harmonic distortions with all the fundamental frequencies ‘notched out’.

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14 minutes ago, esldude said:

...If that is a measurement bully, then fine... 

 

Yea I can't disagree.  @Archimagocomment upstream about Amir's Total Dac (this might be the one to which you refer) review got me to look at his measurements of it...Yikes!  

 

rs_634x920-150825112125-634-mccauley-cul

 

Sort of puts in perspective the value of these trade publications "Recommended Component" lists and what not.


Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

What do you think a delta/null value is between the original source file and one captured from the output of a DAC? ;)

 

If you correct for amplitude and phase errors before nulling, as you can with DeltaWave, you get the more complex SINAD value for a musical recording. That is, RMS value of all the noise and harmonic distortions with all the fundamental frequencies ‘notched out’.

Well...............maybe.  

 

This brings up a good topic in regards to your software.  I'll continue it in the thread for Deltawave.  

 

The maybe is assuming the software worked perfectly yes.  It is working very good.  I'm not quite sure we could use it only to rank accuracy of DACs.  Part of the issue being we need the perfect ADC for that too.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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21 minutes ago, esldude said:

Well...............maybe.  

 

This brings up a good topic in regards to your software.  I'll continue it in the thread for Deltawave.  

 

The maybe is assuming the software worked perfectly yes.  It is working very good.  I'm not quite sure we could use it only to rank accuracy of DACs.  Part of the issue being we need the perfect ADC for that too.  

 

Right. The software is not perfect, but a perfect ADC is not needed for a comparison, as long as the same one is used. There’s also a way to eliminate the influence of the ADC in measurements, but let’s continue this in the DeltaWave thread...

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9 minutes ago, rwdvis said:

 

Thanks for confirming.😊

 

You’ve framed your response in a way that favors your position.  A more accurate response would have been the following:

 

“I disagree with his demonstrably dishonest character, as evidenced in the MQA thread and elsewhere, but he provides very useful measurements."

 

Now maybe you see the problem?

No this isn't more accurate it is ridiculous. 

9 minutes ago, rwdvis said:

 

He does more than just post objective measurements.  He decides what to measure and how, interprets the results, gives opinions, and reaches conclusions.  All this from someone who does not always act in good faith.  Not to mention his personal relationship biases and biases as an industry dealer.

 

If you’re interested in promoting a measurement based hobby, Amir is not the best spokesman in that goal.
 

Anyone who posts measurements decides what and how to measure.  DUH!!!  If you are referring to the gear selected for measurement, he'll measure anything you send him.  His suite of measurements does evolve over time, but is generally quite consistent from product to product.  You seem to think he is picking and choosing on a per unit basis to either make something look bad or make it look good.  I'm not seeing any evidence of that. 

 

The results are the results. 

 

Interpretation well okay.  If a $6k DAC has distortion at -75 db, those are the results and I'd interpret them as poor without any help from anyone.   That includes when others say something measured fine, but I can see it did not.  

 

As for giving opinions, and reaching conclusions I'm okay with that from him and others.  That includes when people complain of his hatchet job while posting identical measured results which has also happened. 

 

Now I don't know much of you, but just going by what I see here, I'd trust Amir's results, opinions and conclusions above yours in terms of measuring gear.   There are a number of things he has measured that others have too, and the results are within margins of error for the most part.  I fail to see bad faith in those.  Occasional mistakes yes, bad faith no.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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12 minutes ago, esldude said:

No this isn't more accurate it is ridiculous. 

Anyone who posts measurements decides what and how to measure.  DUH!!!  If you are referring to the gear selected for measurement, he'll measure anything you send him.  His suite of measurements does evolve over time, but is generally quite consistent from product to product.  You seem to think he is picking and choosing on a per unit basis to either make something look bad or make it look good.  I'm not seeing any evidence of that. 

 

The results are the results. 

 

Interpretation well okay.  If a $6k DAC has distortion at -75 db, those are the results and I'd interpret them as poor without any help from anyone.   That includes when others say something measured fine, but I can see it did not.  

 

As for giving opinions, and reaching conclusions I'm okay with that from him and others.  That includes when people complain of his hatchet job while posting identical measured results which has also happened. 

 

Now I don't know much of you, but just going by what I see here, I'd trust Amir's results, opinions and conclusions above yours in terms of measuring gear.   There are a number of things he has measured that others have too, and the results are within margins of error for the most part.  I fail to see bad faith in those.  Occasional mistakes yes, bad faith no.  

 

The ASR group are so fearful of losing their site and all the time they’ve devoted to it, I don’t think they care whether it’s an honest, reputable site or not.

 

I refer you back to my initial comment.

 

Regards

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1 minute ago, rwdvis said:

 

The ASR group are so fearful of losing their site and all the time they’ve devoted to it, I don’t think they care whether it’s an honest, reputable site or not.

 

I refer you back to my initial comment.

 

Regards

Can't speak for anyone else.  Your ideas are definitely wrong in regards to me, and how I feel about ASR's honesty.  The reputation is going to be fine too as long as the site is honest.  If the site  becomes dishonest then I'd just stop taking part in it.  No need to compound some dishonesty just to keep it going if that were the case. 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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I just went to ASR for measurements.  My old Cambridge DACMagic measures pretty good.  It also sounds pretty good.


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I finally found a use for lossy compression in 2019. Sending sound back to Earth from Mars.

 

 


I have a pair of Amphion One 18 studio speakers on my computer desk, in near field setup and extremely toed in. Damn that sounded so weird. Certainly not the kind of signal that needs a lossless codec. It sounded like it was recorded in a bathroom or toilet - hollow.

But the first 25s of intro music would probably benefit from flac.


Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist

Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing.

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5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I finally found a use for lossy compression in 2019. Sending sound back to Earth from Mars.

 

 

 

Thx for having my little mind blown: "Ich fühle Luft von anderem Planeten."

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