MQA is Vaporware

[The Computer Audiophile]

39 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Sorry Chris, I like to have both accounting and music sources before post something but I posted when I did because Digital Music News reported the same subscriber number on May 26^th, less than a million.

 

In April 2016 TIDAL reported 850,000 paid subscribers to the labels.  Later in the year they reported 1.1 million paid subscribers to the labels. Former TIDAL employee Arthur Sund has alleged that 170,000 inactive accounts were turned on in October of 2016. That is a pretty good basis to say TIDAL has less than a million paid subscribers.

 

Other than press releases what supports any number higher than around a million paid subscribers?

 

I highly recommend against using Digital Music News as a source for anything other than half true salacious headlines. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Actually it strengthens my story but then I’ve actually negotiated with them. See posts about rights holders being family partnerships. Some negotiations were with Sony and they never moved quickly.

 

Besides what economic reason would cause Sony to get MQA music to the market in the next few months?

 

I disagree. You said Sony dragged its feet. That's far from true. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Then were is the music?

 

Ask your "sources."

[The Computer Audiophile]

54 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Did you read the first sentence? In any case a CEO is generally fired for the following reasons: Can’t get along with ownership, isn’t meeting marketing goals, isn’t meeting revenue goals or isn’t containing costs.

 

So as I said let’s start with Jay Z is difficult to work with. Not hard to believe friction didn’t exist between the two. In February Tony Gervino and Elliot Wilson were hired to help fix the subscriber numbers so it isn’t a stretch to believe Jay Z felt he was falling behind the market leaders. There is only one good reason to stream MQA and that is to bring in more paying customers. It is not unreasonable to think there are costs to add MQA streaming.

 

If you’re with me so far then you have to ask why did Jeff leave in March and why was it kept quiet until now? If you remember budgeting then TIDAL would budget revenue for MQA. My speculation is amount MQA streaming was below the budgeted number. Probably because the number of available albums is small and MQA wasn’t a draw get people to either upgrade to a $20 a month plan or subscribe for $20 initially. Now if the costs exceed budget for MQA streaming then you may have to use other resources to pay these costs or not pay the bills. And software like the TIDAL app could go over budget pretty easily.

 

Pretty easy to speculate MQA was part of the reason Jeff is no longer with TIDAL. Unless there are reasons other than marketing, revenue and costs for his departure.

 

I really encourage you to get a source inside the company. Or, you may not want one because almost everything you've said to this point would have to be retracted. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

25 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Let’s cut to the chase about TIDAL. What do think is going right with marketing and finance in the company?

 

Again, get a source inside the company to hear how they think about the business. Given your thoughts so far, I believe it would blow your mind. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Sal1950 said:

If Spotify is smart,  (I hope they are),  they'll introduce a lossless stream sans HDA/MQA and it's costs, for $15 a month and put some nails in the Tidal coffin.

 

I'd love to see cheaper lossless, but the labels set the price, so I don't envision it happening anytime soon. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Sal1950 said:

Well then come on Chris, enlighten us please.

 

I'd love to, but then I'd burn my sources and methods :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Really, the labels tell Tidal and Spotify exactly how much they must charge per month for the service they provide?

 

Yes. Sad but true. 

 

Remember when Apple wanted its service to be like $5 per month? But no, the labels said they needed to charge $10.

 

The labels hold the goods. You want their music, you charge what they say. When piracy was a concern, Apple dictated the price of a song was $0.99. The labels had no choice. Now, the tables have turned. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, mrvco said:

 

With MQA enabled on the Brooklyn, it is locked to the 'MPH' (Minimum Phase) filter regardless of whether the stream includes MQA or not.

Perhaps the reason one can disable MQA on the Brooklyn. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, mrvco said:

 

I haven't asked the Mytek folks yet, but I'm wondering whether it is possible for the DAC to detect MQA data in a stream and switch to MPH from either of the other two filter options in real-time (in a future firmware update).

 

This is how it "should" be, but mine is just a layman's opinion. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, pdickerson said:

I am sorry I subscribed to this forum

 

No worries, I unsubscribed you from this forum. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I almost always enjoy your responses Chris. First if I had a source inside TIDAL the information I received would be confidential and I be violating professional standards by disclosing it. Second to hear how you think TIDAL employees feel about their company would no doubt be fascinating but can they execute? They have not been able to execute their business plans since day one but now they can? The market forces in streaming are not in favor of any company with a smaller market share than Deezer or companies with deep pockets and revenue from other sources to cover the losses.

 

I find it odd that you have no friends at TIDAL and receive no advertising revenue from them anymore but you are certain my view of the company is wrong. Looking at 2017 so far you can see the following.  It gets down to do you believe Midia Research numbers about subscribers or press releases? Next did Sprint have a good reason to make an investment in TIDAL or is it just another bad decision by a company that has history of making bad ones? As for the reported price for a third of TIDAL the terms were not disclosed. Terms assume a greater importance when Norway’s Tax Office registers a claim for taxes of approximately $1.7 million against Tidal Music SA four months after Sprint’s investment.  Add the change in CEO and what do you have? I see a company with instability in management, unable to pay its obligations in a timely manner, in market where it is currently impossible to make a profit and losing market share to the industry leaders. How is me having a source inside TIDAL going to change any of this? But maybe asking a few questions  would not be a bad idea. I know enough Norwegians somebody must know one of the employees  at Tidal Music SA. They can ask them how they feel about their employer not paying payroll taxes.

 

The part of your responses I didn’t enjoy was your belief that a business plan would blow my mind. Why? I see business plans all time. I saw a really good one this spring and in July we do our annual update to a very successful business plan for a group.

 

Where to start.

 

Sources inside companies don't always mean you're violating standards if you discuss concepts and loose details. 

 

You have no clue when you say "They have not been able to execute their business plans since day one but now they can?" If you don't know their business plan, you can't say they have failed in anything.

 

My close friends at Tidal are gone, but that doesn't mean I'm shut out of information from inside the company.  In fact, I talked to the possible new CEO last night. 

 

It's too bad you didn't enjoy the "blow your mind" part of my post. You should take a step back and think about all the reasons someone could go into business, not just your narrow concept what a business plan must entail. Tidal is seen as a playground in a very long game. The ownership doesn't look at it like you look at it. They have a much different agenda than you could imagine. 

 

You can analyze it all you want using traditional metrics, while guessing that you know the goals of the company, but that's not going to get you closer to the truth. When immediate profits and membership numbers aren't the most important aspect of the business, all your bets are off. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, crenca said:

Now here is an industry that is starting to "get it":

 

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2018-toyota-camry-use-open-source-infotainment-platform/

 

Surely the recording industry and manufactures will see the "win-win" that open formats gives content producers, manufactures, and consumers...Ah, who am I kidding

 

Way cool!

 

It sounds like Android for cars. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Toyota will be using "AGL" aka Automotive Grade Linux. It is a Linux Foundation project and not related to Android.

 

P.S. You can see couple of other brands on the web site ticker too.

P.P.S. My Volvo also runs Linux in it's IVI system.

 

 

Thus why I used the term "like"

 

There is a base OS that's customizable by each manufacturer. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

45 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

"If you aren't in business for fun or profit, you shouldn't be."

 

Tidal is much more about fun and agenda than profits. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Don't see the fun in it, but their agenda, exactly. That's what we've been opposing all along

 

Oh, I thought you opposed criminality from 17 years ago. I guess you know something about their agenda that you're opposed to. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

34 minutes ago, mav52 said:

People don't spend that kind of money for the fun of it. Jay Z was hoping he would make a profit, out class Apple draw in a lot more subscribers but its not happening and I would say loosing your top leadership staff overtime is not fun, which means the business goals are not being met, which means your losing money.

 

 

Seriously, from what I'm told by insiders it's very different. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, james45974 said:

Chris, I couldn't tell if your were serious or sarcastic, you didn't include any emoticon!

 

If Tidal is a "have fun" vanity project of Jay-Z then you can start the obit and digging the grave.  The business world is cut throat and littered with the remains of ventures started because someone thought it would be "fun"!  Money has to be made sometime!

 

The only one who seems to have made anything out of a vanity project is Dr. Dre.  He got a deal with Apple!  All Jay-Z has to show is $200 mil from the 4th place US cell company.  Hope it didn't hurt his ego too much!

 

On another note, nobody has really talked about how intertwined Tidal, Roon, and MQA have become.  If Roon went belly up, Tidal would be less desireable.  If Tidal went belly up Roon would be less desireable, and MQA would be up the creek without a paddle.  If MQA went belly up, well, would too many people notice or care?

 

Hi James - I hear you but Tidal seems to be different, based on what I know from insiders. I'm in no way defending the company, but I just have a very different side of the story than most people speculating. 

 

You suggest that "All Jay-Z has to show is $200 mil from the 4th place US cell company." He purchased thee company for roughly $56 million and based on the $200 million investment, it's valued at $600 million. Not bad for a few years of work.

 

The owners think of Tidal as their platform for many things now and in the future. 

 

Tidal has been compared to United Artists a few times. It surprises me to see how many people argue for the artists to make more money in the music business and are for "the little guy" but when a group of artists purchase Tidal to start this train moving, many of these people have nothing but negatives to say and won't even support them. 

 

With respect to your other comments about Roon, MQA, and Tidal intertwined - I see some validity to that. Without Tidal Roon is much less interesting, but still a great app/service. Without MQA Tidal is probably the same. Without Roon, MQA and Tidal are probably the same. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

Perhaps they don't consider Jay-Z an artist.

 

Very true. But they certainly must see co-owner Jack White as an artist. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, Nikhil said:

 

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/mqa/1.html

 

Sixmoons has posted an article with a pretty damning position on MQA.   Meridien is walking on thin ice.  So far they have done a fine job in waltzing around with all the majors but it they trip up against one brand with the wherewithal to take them on - they are going to be in deep trouble.  It's only a matter of time but when it happens, they will be taken to the woodshed.

    

 

I've heard other manufacturers talk about MQA being great for manufacturers with subpar DACs and not so good for those with advanced filtering and DACs. However, I think MQA has realized this and is allowing some manufacturers to stray a bit and use their own filters. 

 

I look at things a bit differently with respect to your comment about a brand taking them on etc...

 

The labels hold all the power and the goods. If they want to deliver MQA content, there's no amount of complaining and pushback from manufacturers that will stop this. Then, it's a matter of manufacturers seeing dollars to be made by selling MQA enabled hardware. A company big enough to take on MQA is a company big enough to look at the bottom line and make an educated decision about implementing the technology. 

 

I also know that the contracts for manufacturers aren't all the same. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Good points @crenca

 

To the masses, who you are talking about in your post, MQA is a change without a difference. They won't see it as a strong measure to change the market. They'll take what the labels provide. 

 

I agree that competition for dollars and time is as strong as it has ever been. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

I think the point is that the masses can stream the MQA files without owning an MAC enabled DAC (or otherwise with something not too costly like the Audioquest Dragonfly).

 

Exactly. The masses will stream MQA or non-MQA without any change to hardware and not even notice. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

50 minutes ago, mav52 said:

I just don't think the masses are going to spend $19.95 a month just to get access and stream MQA.  Most of these masses that I know could careless about MQA and the dollar value to listen to it.

 

I agree. The masses don't care about MQA. I was looking at this as a technology pushed to them without a choice, they just won't care. This was in context of your comment about labels dictating what people listen to. If all music was replaced by MQA, the masses wouldn't care or notice. If companies want to charge more for it, the masses don't care. 

 

I think we are probably on the same page here. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

you can't get any file streamed on Tidal to sound as good as an uncompressed file ripped from a disc, playing from a NAS or LAN.

 

Likely a topic for another thread, but streaming from Tidal is no different than sending a file from your LAN. The same IP protocol is used. Tidal music just has to travel farther. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Do the preferences of people really matter to anyone here? If one guy likes it and others don't, how does that change anything? Or is it just food for discussion?