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MQA is Vaporware


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12 minutes ago, psjug said:

Here we are talking about preferences in filters that cut at about 48KHz.  I really have a hard time believing  it matters whether these filters are linear phase, minimum phase, intermediate, as long as the filters are steep. 

 

Not to disagree with the rest of your comments, but there is a relatively small but discernible difference between filters (min phase vs. linear) in the iFi products (I have the iDAC2 micro & Nano), or the selections in HQPlayer for example.  Min phase "blurs" HF content, or to put a positive spin on it "relaxes" it.  The upper harmonics of brass & strings are particularly affected so I don't normally listen to min phase.   That said, I don't normally listen to tipped up chains, so as a HP listener for example I don't need to "relax" an Sennheiser HD800 because I don't own them :)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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1 minute ago, crenca said:

Not to disagree with the rest of your comments, but there is a relatively small but discernible difference between filters (min phase vs. linear) in the iFi products (I have the iDAC2 micro & Nano), or the selections in HQPlayer for example.  Min phase "blurs" HF content, or to put a positive spin on it "relaxes" it.

The iFi DACs don't have a minimum phase option, unless you're using firmware 5.3C in which case they have only the MQA filters. The switch is labelled minimum phase, but it's actually a slow roll-off linear phase.

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10 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Not to disagree with the rest of your comments, but there is a relatively small but discernible difference between filters (min phase vs. linear) in the iFi products (I have the iDAC2 micro & Nano), or the selections in HQPlayer for example.  Min phase "blurs" HF content, or to put a positive spin on it "relaxes" it.  The upper harmonics of brass & strings are particularly affected so I don't normally listen to min phase.   That said, I don't normally listen to tipped up chains, so as a HP listener for example I don't need to "relax" an Sennheiser HD800 because I don't own them :)

Are you talking about redbook, though?  Possibly then the  linear phase vs minimum phase filter difference would be heard.  But a filter that cuts ~48KHz?

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55 minutes ago, mansr said:

The iFi DACs don't have a minimum phase option, unless you're using firmware 5.3C in which case they have only the MQA filters. The switch is labelled minimum phase, but it's actually a slow roll-off linear phase.

 

Is this the case going back to early versions?  I see the last time I downloaded a driver was 7/2016...

 

edit:  Wait, that's just the previous driver (5.2)...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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48 minutes ago, psjug said:

Are you talking about redbook, though?  Possibly then the  linear phase vs minimum phase filter difference would be heard.  But a filter that cuts ~48KHz?

 

Point taken.  Yes, I have a lot more redbook than hires locally and even when I stream Qobuz I usually choose redbook...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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3 hours ago, psjug said:

He writes:

 I think it's more likely that all those who hear "huge differences" between MQA and non-MQA Studio Masters are hearing the effect of the distortion than some kind of temporal domain improvement. Presumably these people like what the ultrasonic imaging is doing in their systems!

 


This reminds me of this Parov Stelar track, which has some kind of aliasing distortion in the opening of the track. I really like this track as I like this effect as opener, but I would not apply such effect to all music ;) The flac version on tidal gives the illusion of openness in the highs. So I can imagine why a more subtle variant of the same brings the illusion of openness.

You could also just upsample with minimum phase and one cycle of postringing to get this effect, but it just does not work well with all music. With EDM it's a nice gimmick. See the second link in my signature for the sox recipe.
 

 

Youtube's lossy audio compression makes the effect weak and replaces it by a lot of noise, so you should really hear this in FLAC or WAV or any lossless variant of the track. It's on Tidal:

https://tidal.com/browse/album/55284281

Track 10

Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist

Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing.

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On 7/4/2019 at 7:12 PM, Ran said:

 

Is there a stock reply I can use to complain about this? Did anyone send a compliant to a label before?

 

I sent a complaint that I would never buy an MQA CD, with technical reasons mentioned and linked to,  to Decca:

 

https://shop.decca.com/help/

 

(click on "Any other questions")

 

Haven't heard back from them, but it might be useful if they would hear from a couple of people. They probably live in a bubble and don't even realize that there is criticism.

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1 minute ago, Al M. said:

I sent a complaint that I would never buy an MQA CD, with technical reasons mentioned and linked to,  to Decca:

 

https://shop.decca.com/help/

 

(click on "Any other questions")

 

Haven't heard back from them, but it might be useful if they would hear from a couple of people. They probably live in a bubble and don't even realize that there is criticism.

They'd probably have to receive about 10 million complaints before noticing. The entertainment industry is remarkably adept at ignoring what is blatantly obvious to anyone else.

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Quote

Unnecessary Inventions solve real world problems that do not exist by creating products that no one is asking for. All of the products that we design are not for sale including some of our most well known inventions such as the Crocs Gloves, Cuisine Curtain, Pizza Fanny Pack, Avocado on a Stick, AirSticks, Infinity Saucelet, and many more.* What should we create next?!

 

*and many more?  Could they have been consultants on the MQA project?  :D  

 

 

My apologies if this fine youtube channel (they also have a subreddit) has been linked here before.

请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

"I know I chatter on far too much...but if you only knew how many things I want to say and don't, you'd give me some credit!"  -Anne of Green Gables

 

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3 minutes ago, esldude said:

In case you don't know, aliasing is when ultrasonics beyond the ADC range show up below Nyquist for the sample rate in use.

As an example say you have a 48 khz sample rate, which should roll off at 24 khz.  A really strong 34 khz signal would alias and show up as a signal at 34 khz-24khz or 10 khz in the recorded file if the input filter isn't steep enough.  

I think your maths may be a little off there.

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On 8/8/2019 at 6:47 PM, mansr said:

There are a few things happening here. First we have the 10 kHz tone that's actually in the file. Then we have the 86 kHz image created by the MQA filter. At 20 kHz and 30 kHz we have harmonics (distortion) of the 10 kHz tone. The spikes at 66 kHz, 76 kHz, and 96 kHz are the result of intermodulation between the 10 kHz and 86 kHz frequencies. No idea what's going on at 94 kHz. Anyone care to speculate?

 

Probable FFT artefact from the distribution of quantization error along the frequency bins in coherent sampling of sine waves.

Have no idea of  window size and its number of cycles used for FFTs shown ,etc...

Anyhow surprised by its level.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, mansr said:

They'd probably have to receive about 10 million complaints before noticing. The entertainment industry is remarkably adept at ignoring what is blatantly obvious to anyone else.

Perhaps. But if you don't even try, you will never change things. What is time better spent, writing to Decca or writing another post here commiserating about a technical aspect of MQA in a thread that few in the industry follow? I would suggest, once you're done with the former, you can merrily continue with the latter, to your heart's content.

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Having not participated in this thread, when it hit 16000 posts, I thought it would be a good time.  I turned around, and the post count was 17000.  First, a disclaimer.  I have never heard an MQA file, nor do I think I have anything that will play one (although I do use Roon but don't subscribe to anything with it).  It appears that there is a goal to this thread for the great majority posting on it.  That is to end MQA.  However, it appears to me that this thread is an extremely ineffective way to accomplish it.  First, there appears to be no one from any of the customers of MQA (I mean the companies that pay MQA for licensing their processes) that participate in the thread or pay any obvious attention to it.  Second, it doesn't appear that MQA itself participates or pays attention to it.  Third, that for these parties hi-fi is a business and they want to make money in that business, and see MQA as a way to do that.  

 

So, to end MQA one should be thinking about ways to directly affect the business decisions that these companies are making.  The easiest way is to wait for the market to make the decision.  It requires no work, not even a thread (so you can go about with more useful activity). However, it very well could be very slow and may not be successful. Take Bose, for example (as our fearless leader did a couple of weeks ago) or Dolby (if we follow Mr. Dyson's comments about Dolby A whose lack of quality did not lead to the demise of Dolby).  

 

Another way is to put economic pressure on the companies, such as a massive boycott of their products.  Takes much more effort, but has been effective in some cases.  For the many customers of MQA it would take a large number of such boycotts, not so easy to do.  There may be a critical customer whose loss would so affect the business of MQA that they would go bankrupt. If so, going after that company might make sense.  Another is to initiate a class action lawsuit (most effective if targeted directly at MQA, since class action suits against the many different companies which license MQA would take much more effort.)  You would need to either have an attorney (perhaps a member of this thread) who would be willing to take on the suit pro bono, or have wealthy members of the thread finance the law suit.  There may not be reasonable grounds to file the suit, but that has not stopped entities from pursuing such actions, especially if they are tenacious and have the financial backing to wear the company down.

 

A third way is the way that was successful in the last US Presidential Election.  Do a version of 'Catch and Kill'.  This would be best directed at MQA, not at its customers.  Make an offer to buy them out.  If successful, then shut down the company.  Happens all the time with a competitor buying out a rival.  Quick and efficient example of capitalism at work.   I am sure MQA has a price.  If as reported by some posters on this thread that MQA is losing money, then the offer would be lower than if they were profitable.  Given their reported annual sales (taken from earlier posts on this thread) that they have annual sales in the 7 digit range (updates and corrections are appreciated, but the exact number is not important for the argument), then an offer which I would guess might be in the $1M (USD or GBP) to $100M range could get you the company (I am guessing that the real number is in the lower part of the range).   There may be members of the thread or people who have friends who may be willing to put up the necessary funds.   If there is not an individual willing to do it, then perhaps a go fund me campaign would be an easy test to see whether there is sufficient interest. 

 

Larry (who is not interested in having the last word on this or any other thread)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+Doshi3.0+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

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