MQA is Vaporware

[Rt66indierock]

3 hours ago, mcgillroy said:

Guttenberg has an MQA-episode on his channel and it certainly ticks all the boxes: "white glove treatment for artists" (2:00) etc.

 

Also watch the Tidal-representatives reaction when Guttenbergs says "it is really true there is artists involvement in the final process" at 2:50. Comedy gold

 

The comments under the video are interesting too.

 

 

 

I’m at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach California this weekend. People are upset and can’t believe nobody listens to Tidal. It was especially fun to tell Joe N Tell the actual numbers. When he said but I like it I told him enjoy it while you can.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

I’m at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach California this weekend. People are upset and can’t believe nobody listens to Tidal.

 

Because everyone there listens to vinyl and physical CD? Or listens to Spotify?

 

On 6/7/2019 at 9:32 AM, Rt66indierock said:

I have two standing challenges in audio. One is if you think high resolution will benefit artists prove it. Come to my office and lay your proof on my conference table in the Valley of the Sun. Nobody has.

 

Why does someone need to come to you specifically? What's in it for them? 

 

I thought you're an accountant that enjoys HiFi shows?

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

I actually think that the only people who listen to Tidal are those who post about on the various audiophile forums.

 

I have literally met one person out side of the audiophile sphere who had heard of Tidal...and it was via the app to stream the lossy tier to his iPhone. Never heard of FLAC, or knew what the phrases lossy or lossless were. Was excited as hell, then dropped it.

[daverich4]

20 hours ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

See https://www.stereophile.com/features/282/index.html

 

Note that one of the letters published in response to this article was written by Bob Stuart.

 

 

Bob Meridian's Stuart ??

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

This story could not be more timely....I sold off some extra gear I had sitting in the garage a few weeks ago, and the guy who bought it was running a nice vintage system...JBLs, Luxman tubes, etc. I asked what his source was and he said a restored Garrad turntable and Spotify. He said he  simply connects his phone to his preamp. I asked if he had tried CD quality services like Deezer or Tidal....and said.."Spotify is not CD quality?"...I said "no", and he was surprised, but did not care one bit enough to even consider paying $20 a month.

[John_Atkinson]

17 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

 

Bob Meridian's Stuart ??

 

Yes. See https://www.stereophile.com/content/whats-going-there-letters

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

Because everyone there listens to vinyl and physical CD? Or listens to Spotify?

 

 

Why does someone need to come to you specifically? What's in it for them? 

 

I thought you're an accountant that enjoys HiFi shows?

 

Tidal is virtually unknown in the streaming market and has no market share.

 

There is no financial benefit to making a hi-res version for an artist. I’ll write more when I get home. But the easy answer is I have tools to review the accuracy of financial information. Just part of what people like me do.

[daverich4]

4 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

Yes. See https://www.stereophile.com/content/whats-going-there-letters

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

 

Bob Meridian's Stuart ??

 

Yes, I read the article. Is he related to Meridian’s Bob Stuart?

[John_Atkinson]

2 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

Is he related to Meridian’s Bob Stuart?

 

The same man.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

[Rt66indierock]

11 hours ago, Paul R said:

Or a trumpet, cymbal, piccolo, etc. 

 

I have one more day at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach to find a frequency coming out of a speaker over 13k at a listening position. Wish me luck because all most all the systems measured so far start dropping off at 10k.

[Rt66indierock]

8 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

The same man.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

 

He doesn’t seem to have much luck getting people to read his stuff online.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

4 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

He doesn’t seem to have much luck getting people to read his stuff online.

....or much luck in getting people to buy his gear. One ex dealer said his employees referred to Meridian products

as the world's most expensive paperweights 😃

[Rt66indierock]

1 minute ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

....or much luck in getting people to buy his gear. One ex dealer said his employees referred to Meridian products

as the world's most expensive paperweights 😃

 

But John Atkinson seems to like the stuff. Or maybe he just likes financially unsuccessful British companies?

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

4 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

But John Atkinson seems to like the stuff. Or maybe he just likes financially unsuccessful British companies?

When you pour all your resources into products and formats that clearly have a short shelf life...DVD-A, MLP, absurdly expensive CD players, and the laughable Sooloos system, is it a surprise your company will bleed out like a stuck pig?

[Rt66indierock]

Alright I’m off for breakfast and a fun day at T.H.E. Show. I’ve met and caught up with a lot nice people. 

 

This is old sign is all the presence of MQA I’ve found so far except for talking with JVS  and see Ken F of MQA Ltd last night.

[bluesman]

16 hours ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

Yes, the >20kHz content is correlated with the sounds of recorded musical instruments.  When the music stops the overtones disappear.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

 

I suspect that a lot of that energy is IM - not distortion, but true acoustic intermodulation among the higher frequency components of the source instruments. This is then created anew on reproduction, occurring “after” and independent of any IM in the system, and it’s additive to the same natural intermodulation generated during the source performance.  As you know well, IM between a 10kHz tone and a 12 kHz tone will produce sum & difference frequencies, i.e. 2 kHz and 22 kHz. It’s already on the recording, so there’ll also be IM among the recorded and reproduced intermodulation products. Simple math tells us that this will add / reinforce 34, 36, 44, 46 kHz components, etc etc.

 

This is measurable in the source signal as well as the acoustic output of speakers during reproduction. And there will be more of it in the latter that isn’t in the source.

 

All of this intermodulation has to be adding a layer of energy above 20 kHz that is in or just above the noise floor but still measurable and, even if only indirectly, audible. I’ve always believed (and taken flack for, on this very site) that this is a reason why reproduced music will never sound exactly like the source performance - we’re hearing intermodulation among the performers, which is part of the music even though it’s not generated by any individual instrument. And we’re adding another layer on playback that’s not on the recording.

 

And if I’m right, limiting output to 20kHz may well improve realism in reproduction

[Confused]

46 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

 

Bob Meridian's Stuart ??

 

Yes, I read the article. Is he related to Meridian’s Bob Stuart?

That's his name with aliasing artefacts.

[Paul R]

26 minutes ago, bluesman said:

 

I suspect that a lot of that energy is IM - not distortion, but true acoustic intermodulation among the higher frequency components of the source instruments. This is then created anew on reproduction, occurring “after” and independent of any IM in the system, and it’s additive to the same natural intermodulation generated during the source performance.  As you know well, IM between a 10kHz tone and a 12 kHz tone will produce sum & difference frequencies, i.e. 2 kHz and 22 kHz. It’s already on the recording, so there’ll also be IM among the recorded and reproduced intermodulation products. Simple math tells us that this will add / reinforce 34, 36, 44, 46 kHz components, etc etc.

 

This is measurable in the source signal as well as the acoustic output of speakers during reproduction. And there will be more of it in the latter that isn’t in the source.

 

All of this intermodulation has to be adding a layer of energy above 20 kHz that is in or just above the noise floor but still measurable and, even if only indirectly, audible. I’ve always believed (and taken flack for, on this very site) that this is a reason why reproduced music will never sound exactly like the source performance - we’re hearing intermodulation among the performers, which is part of the music even though it’s not generated by any individual instrument. And we’re adding another layer on playback that’s not on the recording.

 

And if I’m right, limiting output to 20kHz may well improve realism in reproduction

 

A very reasonable theory. Of course if as reported earlier in this thread, all the high end speakers do not reproduce sound above 13khz, then a disproven one.  Not sure who to believe here, respected audio engineer and  journalist - or accountant. 🤪

 

 

 

[firedog]

3 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

A very reasonable theory. Of course if as reported earlier in this thread, all the high end speakers do not reproduce sound above 13khz, then a disproven one.  Not sure who to believe here, respected audio engineer and  journalist - or accountant. 🤪

 

 

 

He didn’t say speakers don’t reproduce it-he said he wasn’t measuring it at his listening position. Recorded music having a big drop off after 10k (especially in db terms, even if it somehow “exists”)  isn’t at all unusual. See the graph Archimago posted taken from the hi-res version of Kind of Blue a couple of days ago. Happens on modern recordings, too. Just one of the reasons you don’t need to hear like a batman to thoroughly evaluate and enjoy music playback. 

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I have one more day at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach to find a frequency coming out of a speaker over 13k at a listening position. Wish me luck because all most all the systems measured so far start dropping off at 10k.

 

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

He didn’t say speakers don’t reproduce it-he said he wasn’t measuring it at his listening position. Recorded music having a big drop off after 10k (especially in db terms, even if it somehow “exists”)  isn’t at all unusual. See the graph Archimago posted taken from the hi-res version of Kind of Blue a couple of days ago. Happens on modern recordings, too. Just one of the reasons you don’t need to hear like a batman to thoroughly evaluate and enjoy music playback. 

 

I do see how you get to that interpretation.

 

There is no dispute that output power drops as frequency rises. However, I do expect most modern speakers have audible - or at least measurable - output above 13khz at most listening positions, and find the claim they do not to be rather unbelievable.  

[Rt66indierock]

15 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

A very reasonable theory. Of course if as reported earlier in this thread, all the high end speakers do not reproduce sound above 13khz, then a disproven one.  Not sure who to believe here, respected audio engineer and  journalist - or accountant. 🤪

 

 

 

 

Well the best numbers came from a respected audio engineer’s room. Alan Sides playing his own recordings. I was sitting next to him doing the measuring the speakers were Ocean Way.

 

I would encourage you to measure the frequency response of your system and report back. Say from a foot then back to your listening position.

[bluesman]

15 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

A very reasonable theory. Of course if as reported earlier in this thread, all the high end speakers do not reproduce sound above 13khz, then a disproven one.  Not sure who to believe here, respected audio engineer and  journalist - or accountant. 🤪

 

 

With all due respect, I don't think it's disproven at all, even if there's no output at all above 13k.  I also mean no disrespect to Rt66indierock.  But I frankly and strongly doubt the assertion that no available speaker emits audible energy above 13k, based on observations and measurements made and described by so many others who would all have to be wrong, lying, or both.  Are we supposed to believe and accept that Wilson is simply making up the ToneTot's frequency response of "65 Hz – 23 kHz +/- 3 dB", or that Focal is simply lying about the Utopia's alleged FR of "27Hz – 40kHz +/- 3 dB"?

 

Whether or not all the intermodulation generated during the live performance is being captured / archived / reproduced is irrelevant to the theory.  Even if there's nothing above 13k in the source material, 10 + 10 = 20 and 10 + 20 = 30, etc at the listening position, so there will be intermodulation products above 13k in any measurement of acoustic output from the speakers.  If this is not duplicative and interactive with the same IM products in the source because they weren't captured / stored / reproduced, there may even be a very tiny bit of added realism.  But, of course, all the IM products that occur naturally in the performance below 13k will be created anew on playback to muddy the spectral waters - and this component is most probably more audible than the spectrum above 20k.

[FredericV]

7 hours ago, mcgillroy said:

Guttenberg has an MQA-episode on his channel and it certainly ticks all the boxes: "white glove treatment for artists" (2:00) etc.

 

Also watch the Tidal-representatives reaction when Guttenbergs says "it is really true there is artists involvement in the final process" at 2:50. Comedy gold

 

The comments under the video are interesting too.

 

 

Within the first minute, his claim has already been debunked by Brian:

http://fairhedon.com/2017/11/05/an-interview-with-mastering-engineer-brian-lucey/#comment-6

 

Quote

At present, some labels are releasing my work which was not approved or “authenticated” here, as MQA to a gullible public.

 

[John_Atkinson]

30 minutes ago, bluesman said:

I frankly and strongly doubt the assertion that no available speaker emits audible energy above 13k, based on observations and measurements made and described by so many others who would all have to be wrong, lying, or both. 

 

See, for example, my in-room measurements of the Wilson Yvette and Alexia 2: fig.5 at https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-yvette-loudspeaker-measurements

There is plentiful energy apparent in-room up to the 30kHz limit of this graph.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

[bluesman]

36 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

I would encourage you to measure the frequency response of your system and report back. Say from a foot then back to your listening position.

 

Sound pressure levels drop by 6 dB with each doubling of distance from the source, although that's technically true only for true point sources.  Although in the same ballpark, it's a bit less precise for planar and multiple driver systems.  Reputable, believable, reliable frequency response measurements for speakers in a listening environment are most often made on axis at a specified distance from the source.  Assuming (because I can't find confirmation) that Wilson measures 23k to be down 3 dB at a meter on axis, it would be down 6 db at 2 meters, 12 db at 4, etc.  But every other frequency would also be down by 6 dB at 2 meters etc, because free air attenuation with distance is not frequency dependent.  So the "frequency response" in isolation from the listening environment is going to be the same at any distance all the way out to inaudibility.  Only the SPL will change.

 

I have no trouble believing that a listening room could damp, cancel (e.g. out of phase reflections) or otherwise attenuate enough high frequency energy to be an effective low pass filter, e.g. at 10k or 12k. And this would prevent capture and identification of energy above the passband measured at a listening position beyond a very near field.