Popular Post Thuaveta Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Paul R said: If nothing else it might present an opportunity to get facts out there without all the crazy prejudice and insults. For someone so intent on repeating how smart you are, you don't seem to be very good at listening. So let's try this: they're not interested. The three main reasons they're not is that they're arrogant, they're crooks, and they're cowards, as should be evident to anyone with even a passing interest in the matter. There has been ample evidence of both the symptoms and the conclusion for years now, and they have had ample opportunity to fix things. Ask yourself why they haven't reached out to @The Computer Audiophile to organise what you're proposing. MikeyFresh, mansr, Shadders and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Thuaveta said: For someone so intent on repeating how smart you are, you don't seem to be very good at listening. So let's try this: they're not interested. The three main reasons they're not is that they're arrogant, they're crooks, and they're cowards, as should be evident to anyone with even a passing interest in the matter. There has been ample evidence of both the symptoms and the conclusion for years now, and they have had ample opportunity to fix things. Ask yourself why they haven't reached out to @The Computer Audiophile to organise what you're proposing. Yes, I understand you believe you are an expert on negotiation in the business world, and especially undersdtand the business logic at MQA. You have an interesting technique. Getting all emotional like that and slamming a door shut the way you want to with your rationalization always works. You will get a "NO" every single time. -Paul If someone gives you a gift and you refuse to accept it, to whom does the gift belong? MikeyFresh 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 44 minutes ago, firedog said: Yep. Paul, did you read that Q&A? Bob pretended to be answering all the questions, but actually didn't and was misleading - as came out in the technical analysis thread. He's had his chance here and in other places. MQA people pretty obviously have a corporate policy of using misleading marketing speech wherever and whenever they think they can get away with it. When they think they can't, they don't participate. Or, they disrupt, as the did to Chris' presentation. Yes, but every day is a new day in the wonderful world of MQA. Did they not just re-invent themselves again? Honestly, I think it is an opportunity. But that is just my opinion. -Paul lucretius 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post Thuaveta Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, Paul R said: I understand you believe you are an expert on negotiation in the business world, and especially undersdtand the business logic at MQA. You understand wrong. I don't think of myself as an expert on either the business of MQA, or the technological aspects of MQA. I am however lucid enough to see that they're incompetent on many levels. 13 minutes ago, Paul R said: You have an interesting technique. Getting all emotional like that and slamming a door shut the way you want to with your rationalization always works. The only door I've shut is one of civility: I'll always assume that the person I'm dealing with is intelligent, a courtesy that no one at MQA, and few within the ranks of its supporters, seems to have extended to anyone else. Try asking for that brand for a change. MikeyFresh, troubleahead and crenca 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Paul R said: What they are doing, essentially packing information in the high frequency part of a signal and then extracting it later, has been done for a very long time. It's one of the really basic things everyone learns about DSP. But that's not what they are doing, and even if it were, it would be less than half of what they claim to be doing. esldude, MikeyFresh, Thuaveta and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 16 hours ago, Paul R said: I don't suppose you could sponsor a moderated talk with Bob Stuart? I'm pretty sure he would jump if you offered the chance, and ageed to moderate it so he is not attacked. It might be somewhat informative, on either or both sides of the argument. Just don't let him filter the questions ahead of time. -Paul Paul, I think this would be great - truly, I would love to see it happen. However, I must agree with @The Computer Audiophile and others that it won't happen. I have no emotional or argumentative investment in trying to prove it won't happen. I just think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence already available that demonstrates MQA/Stuart's unwillingness to engage in technical discussion of MQA outside of extremely tightly controlled environments - MQA's own marketing materials and videos, its non-blind (and often different-mastering-based) listening demonstrations, and interviews with sympathetic industry writers. While I share your faith in Chris's fairness and ability to control a moderated forum, I don't think MQA/Stuart shares that faith. And I see zero evidence (not exaggerating for effect - I truly see none) that MQA/Stuart would perceive any upside at all in agreeing to such an event. Because MQA is so much about vertical integration, it pursues most of its business goals by inking deals with content producers and distributors. So far it hasn't really needed to directly win over more than a relatively small number of hearts and minds among audio consumers in order to promote the availability of MQA content - and many of those "consumers" are actually trade publication writers and bloggers, not truly independent consumers. If progress stalls - or if its apparent lack of profitability starts to become a real problem - then it's possible MQA will change its tune. But even then, I would imagine that a forum full of people who are unaffiliated with the trade publications and who possess an unusually high degree of technical knowledge of digital audio and of MQA's weaknesses, would be the last place Stuart would want to go in order to shore up MQA's bona fides. esldude, mansr, lucretius and 11 others 13 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, tmtomh said: Paul, I think this would be great - truly, I would love to see it happen. However, I must agree with @The Computer Audiophile and others that it won't happen. I have no emotional or argumentative investment in trying to prove it won't happen. I just think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence already available that demonstrates MQA/Stuart's unwillingness to engage in technical discussion of MQA outside of extremely tightly controlled environments - MQA's own marketing materials and videos, its non-blind (and often different-mastering-based) listening demonstrations, and interviews with sympathetic industry writers. While I share your faith in Chris's fairness and ability to control a moderated forum, I don't think MQA/Stuart shares that faith. And I see zero evidence (not exaggerating for effect - I truly see none) that MQA/Stuart would perceive any upside at all in agreeing to such an event. Because MQA is so much about vertical integration, it pursues most of its business goals by inking deals with content producers and distributors. So far it hasn't really needed to directly win over more than a relatively small number of hearts and minds among audio consumers in order to promote the availability of MQA content - and many of those "consumers" are actually trade publication writers and bloggers, not truly independent consumers. If progress stalls - or if its apparent lack of profitability starts to become a real problem - then it's possible MQA will change its tune. But even then, I would imagine that a forum full of people who are unaffiliated with the trade publications and who possess an unusually high degree of technical knowledge of digital audio and of MQA's weaknesses, would be the last place Stuart would want to go in order to shore up MQA's bona fides. I also asked Bob to respond to Archimago's article here and he at first said he would provide such a response, then declined. MikeyFresh, Thuaveta, tmtomh and 4 others 2 5 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Shadders Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 troubleahead, Currawong, MikeyFresh and 1 other 4 Link to comment
new_media Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Warner released a number of albums in the mid 90's on HDCD. I now see that a number of them are available on Onkyo Music in 16/44.1 MQA. What exactly would you suppose they did to those recordings before releasing them in MQA? My understanding of HDCD is that it is built into the ADC process? Link to comment
Popular Post Ishmael Slapowitz Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 Over on (derogatory term removed. -CC), this was posted. "And streaming services can be had for free, as in $0.00, or more depending on your relationship to listening to music on the hifi. For hifi folks, Tidal and Qobuz have been our saviors by offering lossless and high resolution streaming—our ears and ideals have been blessed by the Gods of Bandwidth and Audio Origami. But these are niche services dwarfed by the lossy crowd, the elephant in the sweet spot so to speak." https://twitteringmachines.com/high-end-munich-2019-cries-whispers/ Bob Stuart elevated to a God! Wow! crenca and troubleahead 2 Link to comment
Popular Post rando Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 19 hours ago, crenca said: That's the problem with the "civility" argument that whatever it's inherent merits, it is twisted into censorship of information that does not reflect well on MQA and its supporters who write for the trade publications. The TOS on this forum has a strong basis in civil conduct. The (recent) enforcement of it has certainly allowed a fair amount of parading with sharp sticks in the MQA theatre of conflict. Especially when it personally reflected on CC's place of business, position in the industry, or his own thoughts and actions here or outside the site. Certainly the highest argument for civility here actually has dealings with these print/online publications. Perhaps if more was said here that was printable. Censure (of infighting, egos, therapeutic releases of anger, etc.) wouldn't hold him back. Or at the very least that is a reasonable thought to keep in mind if success is valued by more than the few souls putting their own names out there. Insightful as this thread has been. It really has, at points, thanks to solid investigation and doggedness. Dirty jokes nobody else was brave or stupid or sharp enough to seize upon easily grow more relevant than the process of discovery. Hardly reputable and definitely not behavior with any civil purpose. 1 hour ago, tmtomh said: I would imagine that a forum full of people who are unaffiliated with the trade publications and who possess an unusually high degree of technical knowledge of digital audio and of MQA's weaknesses, would be the last place Stuart would want to go in order to shore up MQA's bona fides. I've more than a few longstanding unanswered questions revolving around this the AS thread is unlikely to answer . Fed by a desire of informative reasons for the push on such a small and highly educated segment of (Hi-Fi) consumers. Tantalizing a SV or Asian buyer of exclusive nothings into buying MQA whole to complete the journey into cheap accessibility for the unwashed masses in a specific regional market they can control? Slow dissemination of paper trails and discoverable traits are on the opposite end of digestion from the thinking breathing end that has to face investors and a board. Still, all that prodding from behind has to trouble intestinal fortitude. Picking through his nervous droppings (For anyone still noseblind to why the cheerleader keeps getting banned in a pique of disgust to girdle morale) promotes an environment which lacks many niceties consistent with this little brouhaha sitdown in the company of successfully courted MQA personnel having even the least amount of appeal. I'll suggest that as another reasonable thought to keep in mind. Since it might not be present in the conversation thus far. This place may have decided it has no need for civility. Don't discount it's existence in the uppermost organ controlling any arm poised to deal a mortal blow. The Computer Audiophile, Paul R, Currawong and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, rando said: The TOS on this forum has a strong basis in civil conduct. The (recent) enforcement of it has certainly allowed a fair amount of parading with sharp sticks in the MQA theatre of conflict. Especially when it personally reflected on CC's place of business, position in the industry, or his own thoughts and actions here or outside the site. Certainly the highest argument for civility here actually has dealings with these print/online publications. Perhaps if more was said here that was printable. Censure (of infighting, egos, therapeutic releases of anger, etc.) wouldn't hold him back. Or at the very least that is a reasonable thought to keep in mind if success is valued by more than the few souls putting their own names out there. Insightful as this thread has been. It really has, at points, thanks to solid investigation and doggedness. Dirty jokes nobody else was brave or stupid or sharp enough to seize upon easily grow more relevant than the process of discovery. Hardly reputable and definitely not behavior with any civil purpose. I've more than a few longstanding unanswered questions revolving around this the AS thread is unlikely to answer . Fed by a desire of informative reasons for the push on such a small and highly educated segment of (Hi-Fi) consumers. Tantalizing a SV or Asian buyer of exclusive nothings into buying MQA whole to complete the journey into cheap accessibility for the unwashed masses in a specific regional market they can control? Slow dissemination of paper trails and discoverable traits are on the opposite end of digestion from the thinking breathing end that has to face investors and a board. Still, all that prodding from behind has to trouble intestinal fortitude. Picking through his nervous droppings (For anyone still noseblind to why the cheerleader keeps getting banned in a pique of disgust to girdle morale) promotes an environment which lacks many niceties consistent with this little brouhaha sitdown in the company of successfully courted MQA personnel having even the least amount of appeal. I'll suggest that as another reasonable thought to keep in mind. Since it might not be present in the conversation thus far. This place may have decided it has no need for civility. Don't discount it's existence in the uppermost organ controlling any arm poised to deal a mortal blow. Can someone translate that into English? Ishmael Slapowitz, firedog, troubleahead and 4 others 3 4 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 31 minutes ago, rando said: Don't discount it's existence in the uppermost organ controlling any arm poised to deal a mortal blow. 4 minutes ago, mansr said: Can someone translate that into English? Bob Stuart is taking Kar-aaa-te now and is about to put the hurt on all of us esldude and rando 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post rando Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, mansr said: Can someone translate that into English? It comes down to suggesting the credible work you and others have committed to might languish if it travels forward bereft a form others can do something with. Baby needs to be socialized and all the discomfort that implies. troubleahead, The Computer Audiophile, christopher3393 and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I also asked Bob to respond to Archimago's article here and he at first said he would provide such a response, then declined. Yes but I think they are under more pressure now, and might respond differently now. I mean, after all, they need a chance to disseminate their point of view, in a safe environment. It would have to moderated very well. No attacks from either side. Can’t be an offline interview though, as they have to have skin in the game. Something that CA/AS has been noted for in the past, when talking about reviews and stories you published on controversial subjects. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post Thuaveta Posted May 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: For hifi folks, Tidal and Qobuz have been our saviors by offering lossless and high resolution streaming—our ears and ideals have been blessed by the Gods of Bandwidth and Audio Origami. I just don't understand how, or quite frankly if, these people think. The guy opens his piece with two paragraphs about how what consumers want is dynamics over resolution, and high quality artwork over nothing at all, and then he welcomes the coming of BS, god of remasters and commoditised musak you stream in the background. Ishmael Slapowitz and MikeyFresh 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted May 17, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Paul R said: Yes but I think they are under more pressure now, and might respond differently now. I mean, after all, they need a chance to disseminate their point of view, in a safe environment. It would have to moderated very well. No attacks from either side. Can’t be an offline interview though, as they have to have skin in the game. Something that CA/AS has been noted for in the past, when talking about reviews and stories you published on controversial subjects. I would say that MQA Ltd has been under pressure since June of 2015 when Reinet made their investment. What would be different now? Maybe the following in the United States. Deezer’s highest resolution is CD quality despite signing an agreement with MQA Ltd in 2018. Tidal’s Hi-Fi tier has maybe 100,000 subscribers in the US. And according to their press release announcing MQA on iPhones they have 165,000 MQA tracks, CD quality is over 40 million tracks. Nugs.net has MQA concerts and albums to stream and download but they one of seven or eight choices to buy. Onkyo Music has MQA downloads, but they use 7Digital to run their store. 7Digital may be out of business in July if they can’t raise more capital. If 7Digital goes out of business Napster can pick up some of the slack now that they support MQA as option but their parent company RealNetworks is projecting a loss this quarter on revenue only slightly higher than the first quarter. I consider this very limited access to MQA music. Limited enough that there isn’t demand for MQA DACs and other music playback equipment. Hardware royalties are what the MQA Ltd. business model is based on. I doubt anyone from MQA Ltd will show up here. Just before I introduced myself to Mike Jbara (CEO) he said within earshot we will never get the Computer Audiophile crowd. This was at the end of RMAF 18 and after Marc Finer of the Digital Entertainment Group told me Qobuz not using MQA tells you all you need to know. crenca and troubleahead 2 Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said: I would say that MQA Ltd has been under pressure since June of 2015 when Reinet made their investment. What would be different now? Maybe the following in the United States. Deezer’s highest resolution is CD quality despite signing an agreement with MQA Ltd in 2018. Tidal’s Hi-Fi tier has maybe 100,000 subscribers in the US. And according to their press release announcing MQA on iPhones they have 165,000 MQA tracks, CD quality is over 40 million tracks. Nugs.net has MQA concerts and albums to stream and download but they one of seven or eight choices to buy. Onkyo Music has MQA downloads, but they use 7Digital to run their store. 7Digital may be out of business in July if they can’t raise more capital. If 7Digital goes out of business Napster can pick up some of the slack now that they support MQA as option but their parent company RealNetworks is projecting a loss this quarter on revenue only slightly higher than the first quarter. I consider this very limited access to MQA music. Limited enough that there isn’t demand for MQA DACs and other music playback equipment. Hardware royalties are what the MQA Ltd. business model is based on. I doubt anyone from MQA Ltd will show up here. Just before I introduced myself to Mike Jbara (CEO) he said within earshot we will never get the Computer Audiophile crowd. This was at the end of RMAF 18 and after Marc Finer of the Digital Entertainment Group told me Qobuz not using MQA tells you all you need to know. Solid overview of the bleak situation for MQA. I will however, add that ProStudioMasters has gone all in with MQA. But i am sure that even among MQA devotees that purchasing MQA tracks is a non starter. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted May 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2019 10 hours ago, Paul R said: Yes but I think they are under more pressure now, and might respond differently now. I mean, after all, they need a chance to disseminate their point of view, in a safe environment. It would have to moderated very well. No attacks from either side. Can’t be an offline interview though, as they have to have skin in the game. Something that CA/AS has been noted for in the past, when talking about reviews and stories you published on controversial subjects. We've seen their behavior for years now: it's been consistent - consistently bad. Close to zero reason to think they will "change their spots" as it were. MikeyFresh, esldude and 4est 2 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, firedog said: We've seen their behavior for years now: it's been consistent - consistently bad. Close to zero reason to think they will "change their spots" as it were. Well, all I can say is you are thinking of them like people, not like a business. Most inimical companies can turn around and become partners in an incredibly short period of time. Look at Apple and Qualcomm. If you look at them as a business, their behavior becomes a bit more understandable. Still wrong, and still stupid, but understandable at least. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post rickca Posted May 21, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2019 On 5/16/2019 at 8:57 PM, Rt66indierock said: I doubt anyone from MQA Ltd will show up here. I thought this article was interesting in the context of this thread. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/incompetent-people-from-wealthy-backgrounds-are-more-likely-to-act-like-theyre-smart-and-people-believe-them-2019-05-21?mod=mw_theo_homepage Hugo9000 and crenca 2 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted May 21, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2019 1 minute ago, rickca said: I thought this article was interesting in the context of this thread. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/incompetent-people-from-wealthy-backgrounds-are-more-likely-to-act-like-theyre-smart-and-people-believe-them-2019-05-21?mod=mw_theo_homepage I thought we weren't supposed to talk about Trump here. lucretius, Hugo9000, Rt66indierock and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted May 21, 2019 Author Share Posted May 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, rickca said: I thought this article was interesting in the context of this thread. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/incompetent-people-from-wealthy-backgrounds-are-more-likely-to-act-like-theyre-smart-and-people-believe-them-2019-05-21?mod=mw_theo_homepage Good article Link to comment
esldude Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 12:42 PM, Rt66indierock said: Good article I think it is a very poor article. For one thing it is about this privilege is everything bull crap. Now I don't doubt the results. Then again this would have seemed so self evident you feel like it was almost foolish to spend the effort studying it. I suppose it doesn't hurt to confirm the obvious. But is anyone surprised? News at 11, a scientific spectrum analysis of visible light indicates the sky is blue and grass is green as viewed by humans. The Computer Audiophile 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, esldude said: I think it is a very poor article. For one thing it is about this privilege is everything bull crap. Now I don't doubt the results. Then again this would have seemed so self evident you feel like it was almost foolish to spend the effort studying it. I suppose it doesn't hurt to confirm the obvious. But is anyone surprised? News at 11, a scientific spectrum analysis of visible light indicates the sky is blue and grass is green as viewed by humans. Look confidence shown by Bob Stuart, John Atkinson and Robert Harley promoting MQA in late 2014 and early 2015. Link to comment
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