MQA is Vaporware

[firedog]

10 minutes ago, Daccord said:

Maybe no apocalypse yet, but there's definitely a red Tidal. Many new releases are now MQA only. I don't use the Tidal app for playback, and my DAC doesn't do MQA, so I am looking for CD-quality only. Tidal has quickly become very frustrating due to MQA. I hope whatever MQA Ltd is paying them makes up for lost subscriptions. Unfortunately, Qobuz isn't in Canada yet.

I don’t have Tidal subscription anymore. Are you saying new releases are also not available in standard CD quality? In any case, can you give a few examples of releases  where no non MQA is available?

[firedog]

4 hours ago, mav52 said:

 Ok, Paul I really don't know if you use 2L or not, but their collected artist sold on their site used to be in all formats, but now its MQA.   ITS MQA on Tidal and its MQA on this site. https://www.highresaudio.com/en/label/view/e9303123-e18a-4694-bda5-2edd10004141/2l

 

You can still get their artist on HDTRACKS and Native DSD but some of that music was old.  

Checking that page, I see albums available in multiple formats, one of which is MQA. What album is only available in MQA?

[Daccord]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

I don’t have Tidal subscription anymore. Are you saying new releases are also not available in standard CD quality? In any case, can you give a few examples of releases  where no non MQA is available?

 

It used to be that when Tidal showed you only the MQA version of an album you search for the album by name and see both the MQA and standard versions. But the "Explore" feature is showing me a new Joshua Redman album named Come What May. No matter how I search, I can only ever find an MQA version of that. There are several others already, but Come What May is ominous enough.

[crenca]

26 minutes ago, Daccord said:

 

It used to be that when Tidal showed you only the MQA version of an album you search for the album by name and see both the MQA and standard versions. But the "Explore" feature is showing me a new Joshua Redman album named Come What May. No matter how I search, I can only ever find an MQA version of that. There are several others already, but Come What May is ominous enough.

 

I just checked and Roon is showing only MQA for that album - no equivalent 16/44.  I don't use the Tidal app much anymore so perhaps I am missing it, but I don't see a way to search within it for 16/44 only.  If you adjust your streaming options to "HIFI", it plays this album but I don't know if it is a real 16/44 version or downsampled MQA.

 

In the past year I have found a handful of albums in Tidal without an 16/44 version...

[Kal Rubinson]

50 minutes ago, Daccord said:

Maybe no apocalypse yet, but there's definitely a red Tidal. Many new releases are now MQA only. I don't use the Tidal app for playback, and my DAC doesn't do MQA, so I am looking for CD-quality only. Tidal has quickly become very frustrating due to MQA. I hope whatever MQA Ltd is paying them makes up for lost subscriptions. Unfortunately, Qobuz isn't in Canada yet.

I did find that "Polarity" (a recent 2L release) is available on Qobuz only in MQA.

[wdw]

https://audiobacon.net/2019/04/03/axpona-2019-master-class-series-with-mqa/

[mav52]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Checking that page, I see albums available in multiple formats, one of which is MQA. What album is only available in MQA?

Should have noted Tidal and 2L only.   Kal already mentioned it.

[daverich4]

14 hours ago, Daccord said:

Maybe no apocalypse yet, but there's definitely a red Tidal. Many new releases are now MQA only. 

 

When @Firedog asked for some examples of the “many new releases” the response was exactly one.

In any event,

https://www.hdtracks.com/still-dreaming-feat-ron-miles-scott-colley-brian-blade?___store=default&nosto=nosto-page-search1

 

[Daccord]

2 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

 

When @Firedog asked for some examples of the “many new releases” the response was exactly one.

In any event,

https://www.hdtracks.com/still-dreaming-feat-ron-miles-scott-colley-brian-blade?___store=default&nosto=nosto-page-search1

 

 

If you don't believe me, or if you think there is exactly one MQA-only album on Tidal, sign up for a trial account and check it out yourself.

 

I don't understand what you intended with the link unless you meant it as some kind of insult.

[daverich4]

3 hours ago, Daccord said:

 

If you don't believe me, or if you think there is exactly one MQA-only album on Tidal, sign up for a trial account and check it out yourself.

 

I don't understand what you intended with the link unless you meant it as some kind of insult.

 

I have a Tidal account which I access through Roon. My point was that even if you found 10 MQA only albums on Tidal, that isn’t exactly “many new releases” out of the millions of albums on their service.

 

I’m not sure how providing you with a link to the hi-Rez/non-MQA version of the album you were concerned about could be viewed as an insult but apparently you managed to do so. 

[Daccord]

5 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

I’m not sure how providing you with a link to the hi-Rez/non-MQA version of the album you were concerned about could be viewed as an insult but apparently you managed to do so. 

 

Please forgive my confusion. This is the album I mentioned:

 

This is the album you linked:

[crenca]

54 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

 

I have a Tidal account which I access through Roon. My point was that even if you found 10 MQA only albums on Tidal, that isn’t exactly “many new releases” out of the millions of albums on their service.

 

I’m not sure how providing you with a link to the hi-Rez/non-MQA version of the album you were concerned about could be viewed as an insult but apparently you managed to do so. 

 

No, it's becoming  more common.  "Millions" of unmolested catalog does not affect the current trend.  Just found another one, "Buble (original soundtrack)."  I found another one last night while browsing but I have already forgotten its name as I was not interested in the artist.  So that's two in a day, just from about  an hour's effort of casual browsing.  This easy "here's another one, and another one" has been my experience for the last 6 weeks or so... 

[John Dyson]

I haven't read the technical details about MQA -- but just thought of something 'interesting' about their alledged usage of the term 'blur'?  I haven't been thinking about video -- but there is a kind of processing done when video has been rolled off (blurred) and some sharpness can be hopefully recovered (sharpness, NOT detail) but  a nonlinear processing technique.   'Sharpness in video is NOT detail, likewise a sharper or nonlinear expanded audio signal is also NOT detail.)  Video 'deblurring' isn't all that complex or complicated (either one), but must be done correctly.  The kind of technique used to 'deblur' video wouldn't be exactly applicable to audio (and probably not desirable except in very controlled cases for either forensic or recovery purposes.)

 

Think of it like this -- video is the world of edges and nonlinear detail.   Audio is the world of 'tones' (sine waves), even our ears detect tones and the various durations/combinations, not really edges and nonlinear details (maybe certain percussive transients -- but that is not the general case.)  Applying transforms for compression is also different between audio and video.  Being very very general: ypically for music material, the transforms/compression are done to the spectral type information vs time, while for video transforms are essentially done to the video itself vs. time.  (The speech type compression is sometimes different tha nwhat is used for music.)

 

Point being -- it worriies me that 'deblurring' means applying some kind of gratuitious nonlinear processing (or some analog of that) that happens to sound good to some people.  Deblurring sounds like 'adding artifacts' to me.

 

I could be very wrong, but other than peaking (ugly), some kind of nonlinear scheme (however fancy it might be -- e.g. AGC compressors have nonlinear characteritics), it might be some kind of nonlinear signal modification.  There is already too much signal modification used to hide defects, now there is signal modification to siphon more money from the customer base -- without giving anything useful in return?

 

The deblurring thing (or whatever it is called) really bothers me.  I hope that any follow up gobblty goop doesn't include discussions about Gibbs 'ringing' :-).

 

John

[Ralf11]

This thread enforces my decision to stay away from streaming...

[John Dyson]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

This thread enforces my decision to stay away from streaming...

I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing -- your position on streaming is the same as mine.

 

John

[Kal Rubinson]

26 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

This thread enforces my decision to stay away from streaming...

 

20 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing -- your position on streaming is the same as mine.

Why?  Just ignore the MQA stuff.  There is little of it, still, on Qobuz and there's lots of great music in lossless formats.

[John Dyson]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

 

Why?  Just ignore the MQA stuff.  There is little of it, still, on Qobuz and there's lots of great music in lossless formats.

 

I isn't just MQA -- it is also the transient nature -- the lack of posession.  Probably a generational culture difference.  Too much control, alteration and dependency for my own emotional comfort.   (As my grandma used to say -- a little off color -- 'whatever blows your skirt up' :-)).

 

 

[Ralf11]

and... you can more easily find people commenting on which CD, MFSL CD, SACD, or HiRes (maybe HiRes down sampleded/up-projected or whatever...) sounds best

 

tho opinions on SQ may differ

[daverich4]

3 hours ago, Daccord said:

 

Please forgive my confusion. This is the album I mentioned:

 

This is the album you linked:

 

My apologies, I apparently copied the link next to the album you were talking about. Because of the somewhat ephemeral nature of music on Tidal (and perhaps Tidal itself) I tend to buy music I’m interested in listening to long term. It’s been my general expierencec that if something is available as MQA it’s also available as standard hiRez. Sorry about causing the confusion over the link, I’ll try again and hope this is the right one. 

https://www.hdtracks.com/come-what-may-770322?___store=default&nosto=nosto-page-search1

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, John Dyson said:

I isn't just MQA -- it is also the transient nature -- the lack of posession.  Probably a generational culture difference.  Too much control, alteration and dependency for my own emotional comfort.   (As my grandma used to say -- a little off color -- 'whatever blows your skirt up' :-)).

I acknowledge all that and, frankly, I listen mostly to my own collection for those reasons.  I prefer hi-resolution multichannel for which there is no streaming source (yet).

 

That said, I can discover music and performances via streaming and then make informed purchases for my library.  Streaming is only an adjunct but an important one.

[Paul R]

2 hours ago, John Dyson said:

I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing -- your position on streaming is the same as mine.

 

John

 

Unless you are always "on" - that is, always engaged in critical listening, then streaming has it's place. Critical listening is work, even if it is work one loves, it is still work. Casual listening on the other hand, is all about enjoyment. 

 

Streaming is for casual listening. Trying out stuff you want listen to, but don't know if you want to buy. After you listen to it, you may decide to buy it, or you decide not to buy it. You can even choose to just listen to it again. The choice is yours. And stuff that makes you run away with your ears starting to bleed?  That you know to stay away from pretty quickly, and at minimal cost.  

 

Building a system that sounds good when streaming is then, and important consideration. Even better, have a couple systems around, one just for casual listening from streaming sources, and the other for serious listening or for critical listening. 

 

If you look at things along these lines, MQA doesn't make a rat's ass of difference in the overall scheme of things. On the other hand, if your primary source of music is streaming, well then.. maybe that changes things up a bit. But it isn't like MQA is going to creep Into my existing digital or physical library. 

 

-Paul 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

20 minutes ago, Paul R said:

If you look at things along these lines, MQA doesn't make a rat's ass of difference in the overall scheme of things. On the other hand, if your primary source of music is streaming, well then.. maybe that changes things up a bit. But it isn't like MQA is going to creep Into my existing digital or physical library. 

I agree unless......................................................................one falls in love with an MQA recording via a streaming source but only to find that it is not available anywhere except as MQA.   

[Paul R]

On 4/3/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ralf11 said:

Your risk assessment is mere speculation.

 

A proper risk assessment has parameters of validity added, either by calculation or by expert judgement. 

 

Uh no. It is personal, but it is based upon decades of experience.  You disagreeing has zero effect on its probability. 

 

The risk assessment of everything being in MQA *and* MQA being used as a DRM control both is rubbish though.

 

MQA may, probably will, make an impact. In fact, it already has. How great an impact will depend upon a lot of other things than just wishful thinking though. Many of which have been pointed out time and time again, and are joyfully ignored by the folks having too much fun spreading FUD. None of whose judgements are either professional or expert, or even calculated. 

 

That is separate from the facts that were uncovered and presented, which, by the way, have a depressing effect on the spread of MQA. 

 

My risk assessment does have a depressing effect on the gleeful spread of FUD around here though. 

 

-Paul

 

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

My risk assessment does have a depressing effect on the gleeful spread of FUD around here though. 

 

 

The first thing that came to mind when I read your post:

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Legend in his own mind

 

 

[mav52]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

That said, I can discover music and performances via streaming and then make informed purchases for my library.  Streaming is only an adjunct but an important one

 

This is why I utilize streaming.  If I like it, I buy it.