Jud Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, mansr said: Doug Schneider and Paul Miller have been critical, though I don't think they've mentioned it much at all lately. I've heard of Hi-Fi News and remember seeing it on newsstands. Is Soundstage! a major high end audio publication? I don't remember being much aware of it until now, but that doesn't mean anything. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
firedog Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Jud said: I've heard of Hi-Fi News and remember seeing it on newsstands. Is Soundstage! a major high end audio publication? I don't remember being much aware of it until now, but that doesn't mean anything. Isn't Soundstage online only? That's why I didn't include it. Doug certainly hasn't been in the MQA camp, that's for sure. Siltech817 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jud said: I've heard of Hi-Fi News and remember seeing it on newsstands. Is Soundstage! a major high end audio publication? I don't remember being much aware of it until now, but that doesn't mean anything. I don't know what should count as major, nor do I have any readership figures. Still, I think the good guys deserve a mention. Siltech817, Hugo9000 and Jud 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Currawong Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 7 hours ago, Paul R said: Well yes, they have to apply DSP to de-convole the information that they convolved into it when they did their MQA hoo-doo. That is *supposed* to make no effect on the CD sound, but I don't know anyone who actually believes that anymore. Some people like the sound better, at least on some material. But as other people have pointed out, that may just be a temporary reaction to the processed file being or appearing to be louder. -Paul It's more than that. Take Getz and Gilberto on TIDAL. The MQA version has, in effect, been EQ'ed, with boosted bass and some weird distortions in parts of some tracks. Then there's INXS Kick, which has a serious pitch change. Some of the changes make it seem as if they've run one of those sound enhancer plug-ins over the music to ensure there is a distinct difference for consumers to hear. They are trying to tie this in to being a result of "MQA" when really they've simply altered the music itself, something that doesn't require the fancy compression scheme at all, or the filters. christopher3393, Paul R, Sonicularity and 3 others 2 2 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 47 minutes ago, Currawong said: It's more than that. Take Getz and Gilberto on TIDAL. The MQA version has, in effect, been EQ'ed, with boosted bass and some weird distortions in parts of some tracks. Then there's INXS Kick, which has a serious pitch change. Some of the changes make it seem as if they've run one of those sound enhancer plug-ins over the music to ensure there is a distinct difference for consumers to hear. They are trying to tie this in to being a result of "MQA" when really they've simply altered the music itself, something that doesn't require the fancy compression scheme at all, or the filters. Damn, I would "like" this multiple times if I could. Exactly matches my MQA listening experience, before this thread ever started. (There were obvious remasters that went beyond MQA, to the extent of things like instruments in different locations.) Currawong, christopher3393 and 4est 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
firedog Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Jud said: Damn, I would "like" this multiple times if I could. Exactly matches my MQA listening experience, before this thread ever started. (There were obvious remasters that went beyond MQA, to the extent of things like instruments in different locations.) MQA will probably claim that they were given the best available "authenticated" master and that's how it sounded.... Siltech817 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post left channel Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 57 minutes ago, Currawong said: It's more than that. Take Getz and Gilberto on TIDAL. The MQA version has, in effect, been EQ'ed, with boosted bass and some weird distortions in parts of some tracks. Then there's INXS Kick, which has a serious pitch change. Some of the changes make it seem as if they've run one of those sound enhancer plug-ins over the music to ensure there is a distinct difference for consumers to hear. They are trying to tie this in to being a result of "MQA" when really they've simply altered the music itself, something that doesn't require the fancy compression scheme at all, or the filters. 6 minutes ago, Jud said: Damn, I would "like" this multiple times if I could. Exactly matches my MQA listening experience, before this thread ever started. (There were obvious remasters that went beyond MQA, to the extent of things like instruments in different locations.) 1 minute ago, firedog said: MQA will probably claim that they were given the best available "authenticated" master and that's how it sounded.... There are several versions of Getz/Gilberto on Tidal. If it has boosted bass then it's from a loudness-enhanced remix for a 2014 "50th anniversary" release, which never should have been "MQA'ed" in the first place. This kind of indiscriminate so-called remastering is part of the problem. It is not a master in the first place, it is not "as the artist intended", and yet it gets a blue dot because some clerk at the current copyright owner approved it. Trying to pick through all the chaff looking for wheat is part of what makes the Masters experience so frustrating, and a big reason why I have pretty much given up on it. Hugo9000, MikeyFresh, Currawong and 3 others 3 1 2 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Jud said: Damn, I would "like" this multiple times if I could. Exactly matches my MQA listening experience, before this thread ever started. (There were obvious remasters that went beyond MQA, to the extent of things like instruments in different locations.) Remember that track from The Nightfly that I analysed? The MQA on Tidal was clearly a different tape transfer than the non-MQA version, and it was also 8 seconds longer. MikeyFresh, lucretius, Sonicularity and 3 others 2 2 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 Just now, firedog said: MQA will probably claim that they were given the best available "authenticated" master and that's how it sounded.... I certainly don't mind people going back and doing better masterings. That's to be encouraged. It's just frustrating that having been run through the MQA process, it's not quite as good as it could be. tmtomh and Kyhl 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post left channel Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jud said: I certainly don't mind people going back and doing better masterings. That's to be encouraged. It's just frustrating that having been run through the MQA process, it's not quite as good as it could be. Hah, we posted at almost the exact same moment. You saw my post above, but just to reiterate: the problem with that one is it's not based on a master, so is not a remastering, and never should have been run through the MQA process in the first place. This is unfortunately far too common. #Sad. lucretius and Jud 1 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
Popular Post John Dyson Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 15 hours ago, crenca said: According to Bob S and his supporters such as John Atkinson, you should care because this "ringing" effects "transient behavior". They don't explain the how/why - they just assert it and then go on to design MQA/DACS/systems around the assertion. but but but: there is NO ringing!!! That is the frustrating thing, they are basing their idea on something that doens't really exist... It is a mirage, and have a full ecosystem on mistaking a series truncation for ringing. So, that is another mark against MQA and the theory behind some of the aspects When doing the series truncation (brickwall LPF), the so called 'ringing' frequencies were in the signal BEFORE the filtering. The so called 'ringing' happens because of the higher frequencies being excluded, and the 'undulations' that you see are a residual effect that were ALWAYS in the signal. The signal associated with the Gibbs effect WERE NOT CREATED BY THE LPF!!! They were made apparent by the removal of higher frequency components. sqwave = x + x^3/3 + x^5/5 + x^7/7..., where x=2*pi*f*t *Above, I ignored the 4/pi constant multiplication factor, unimportant for this discussion. When you chop off the series above a certain point point -- removing frequencies above a certain point in the series, then you get those weird things that look like oscillations, but NOTHING HAS BEEN CREATED, and has only been removed. John mansr, Kyhl, Currawong and 8 others 7 1 3 Link to comment
mav52 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 22 minutes ago, firedog said: MQA will probably claim that they were given the best available "authenticated" master and that's how it sounded.... Maybe ,but they sure aren't going to tell us what master it was. The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
Jud Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 41 minutes ago, John Dyson said: but but but: there is NO ringing!!! That is the frustrating thing, they are basing their idea on something that doens't really exist... It is a mirage, and have a full ecosystem on mistaking a series truncation for ringing. So, that is another mark against MQA and the theory behind some of the aspects When doing the series truncation (brickwall LPF), the so called 'ringing' frequencies were in the signal BEFORE the filtering. The so called 'ringing' happens because of the higher frequencies being excluded, and the 'undulations' that you see are a residual effect that were ALWAYS in the signal. The signal associated with the Gibbs effect WERE NOT CREATED BY THE LPF!!! They were made apparent by the removal of higher frequency components. sqwave = x + x^3/3 + x^5/5 + x^7/7..., where x=2*pi*f*t *Above, I ignored the 4/pi constant multiplication factor, unimportant for this discussion. When you chop off the series above a certain point point -- removing frequencies above a certain point in the series, then you get those weird things that look like oscillations, but NOTHING HAS BEEN CREATED, and has only been removed. John Nice - I'd read about this before (including one prior comment from you in this thread), but didn't quite understand what you were driving at until now. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
left channel Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, firedog said: MQA will probably claim that they were given the best available "authenticated" master and that's how it sounded.... 49 minutes ago, mav52 said: Maybe ,but they sure aren't going to tell us what master it was. Actually, they did tell us. And it's not an original 1964 master at all. Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
mav52 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, left channel said: Actually, they did tell us. And it's not an original 1964 master at all. Not what I was getting at. Did MQA tell its listeners which master was used on this or any recording that performed their voodoo magic on.. The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
John Dyson Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jud said: Nice - I'd read about this before (including one prior comment from you in this thread), but didn't quite understand what you were driving at until now. It is so very easy to take the idea that Gibbs is the same as 'ringing'. Everyone (including I) call it 'ringing.' But, when it comes down to designing DSP software or circuitry, it isn't really ringing -- so needs to sometimes be looked at differently. For example, it has SOME of the same characteristics that can be created by ringing. If one looks at it in a different way -- 'ringing' in the correct circuit can massively increase the signal level -- but Gibbs is limited to a few percent (AFAIR about 9% -- I could be wrong -- I get things confused like everyone does.) I promise you -- even EEs get tripped up by this one, mostly because it is often called 'ringing'. This effect is one reason why sometimes on digital systems it is a good thing to leave some wiggle room when normalizing a signal. If there is a subsequent LPF, then the overshoot will cause fewer problems. Ringing can still cause problems, but allowing for a linear phase overshoot is probably a good 1st cut rule. The REAL problem with Gibbs is if there is a conversion to analog or the digital signal hard limits (or wraps around) at full scale, then a multitude of evils can happen. Analog electronics can be susceptable to increases in distortion also. John lucretius 1 Link to comment
Popular Post left channel Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, mav52 said: Not what I was getting at. Did MQA tell its listeners which master was used on this or any recording that performed their voodoo magic on.. Agreed the lack of information about MQA albums severely worsens the Hi-Res provenance problem many times over. This has driven me almost entirely from Tidal to Qobuz. Samuel T Cogley, Rt66indierock, Sonicularity and 4 others 4 2 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 8 hours ago, firedog said: Means nothing except for his personal preference for the sound of the unfolded or first unfold (lossy) formats. Apparently he prefers that. It would be interesting to hear him explain why he thinks he prefers the sound of lossy audio. Unless of course, it's all based on sighted bias. If you read it again..there WAS no first unfold. He plugged a USB stick in the Naim from panel. Hmmmm. MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Ishmael Slapowitz Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 Hmmm. A review from Paul Miller's mag of the Naim streamer.. NO mention of lack of MQA decoding...no mention of MQA interesting contrast to Mr. Dudley. https://www.hifinews.com/content/naim-audio-nd5-xs-2-network-attached-dac Siltech817, MikeyFresh, John Dyson and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment
crenca Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Hmmm. A review from Paul Miller's mag of the Naim streamer.. NO mention of lack of MQA decoding...no mention of MQA interesting contrast to Mr. Dudley. https://www.hifinews.com/content/naim-audio-nd5-xs-2-network-attached-dac Mr. @John_Atkinson, you sure your trade publication does not have a product placement contract with MQA Ltd.?? Are you sure? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 A bit strange if every digital equipment review is also review and endorsement of MQA... MikeyFresh, The Computer Audiophile, Hugo9000 and 1 other 1 1 2 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post rickca Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Miska said: A bit strange if every digital equipment review is also review and endorsement of MQA... Yeah I think that is the MQA playbook. Of course, everyone claims they get no incentive from MQA for this. They just like MQA. Sure. Teresa, MikeyFresh and Siltech817 2 1 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted March 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2019 2 hours ago, John Dyson said: but but but: there is NO ringing!!! That is the frustrating thing, they are basing their idea on something that doens't really exist... It is a mirage, and have a full ecosystem on mistaking a series truncation for ringing. So, that is another mark against MQA and the theory behind some of the aspects When doing the series truncation (brickwall LPF), the so called 'ringing' frequencies were in the signal BEFORE the filtering. The so called 'ringing' happens because of the higher frequencies being excluded, and the 'undulations' that you see are a residual effect that were ALWAYS in the signal. The signal associated with the Gibbs effect WERE NOT CREATED BY THE LPF!!! They were made apparent by the removal of higher frequency components. sqwave = x + x^3/3 + x^5/5 + x^7/7..., where x=2*pi*f*t *Above, I ignored the 4/pi constant multiplication factor, unimportant for this discussion. When you chop off the series above a certain point point -- removing frequencies above a certain point in the series, then you get those weird things that look like oscillations, but NOTHING HAS BEEN CREATED, and has only been removed. John 1 hour ago, John Dyson said: It is so very easy to take the idea that Gibbs is the same as 'ringing'. Everyone (including I) call it 'ringing.' But, when it comes down to designing DSP software or circuitry, it isn't really ringing -- so needs to sometimes be looked at differently. For example, it has SOME of the same characteristics that can be created by ringing. If one looks at it in a different way -- 'ringing' in the correct circuit can massively increase the signal level -- but Gibbs is limited to a few percent (AFAIR about 9% -- I could be wrong -- I get things confused like everyone does.) I promise you -- even EEs get tripped up by this one, mostly because it is often called 'ringing'. This effect is one reason why sometimes on digital systems it is a good thing to leave some wiggle room when normalizing a signal. If there is a subsequent LPF, then the overshoot will cause fewer problems. Ringing can still cause problems, but allowing for a linear phase overshoot is probably a good 1st cut rule. The REAL problem with Gibbs is if there is a conversion to analog or the digital signal hard limits (or wraps around) at full scale, then a multitude of evils can happen. Analog electronics can be susceptable to increases in distortion also. John Devil's advocate says: You say potato, I say potato. Whatever the definition and source of said "ringing", Bob Stuart, @John_Atkinsonand @Jim Austin maintain that it is relevant, and effects in band sound quality through "transient behavior". Who are you? Your not a recognized authority. As AQuint has explained, your understanding is political. Indeed, as @Jim Austinexplicitly said, your part of a herd and "nasty" (his word) forum mentality. If only the @The Computer Audiophile would reign in this thread, forum, and consumers in general your misinformation and silly explanations would not cause and baseless and unneeded controversy around a perfectly good product like MQA. in other words, of course ringing effects transient behavior... MikeyFresh and The Computer Audiophile 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
firedog Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 hours ago, mav52 said: Maybe ,but they sure aren't going to tell us what master it was. You do realize that I was being very sarcastic about those "authenticated" masters when I wrote that? Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Jud said: I certainly don't mind people going back and doing better masterings. That's to be encouraged. It's just frustrating that having been run through the MQA process, it's not quite as good as it could be. But Jud, they hand pick the very version the artist approved to go through the MQA process - for every album. Don't you know that.... MikeyFresh 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
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