jbwhite Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Well of course your right, there are real sociopaths and other serious disorders. However, look at what you did, you used the word "poorly". What I am saying is that in point of fact there is real, unavoidable conflict in almost all areas of life and human interrelation and that this in of itself is not indicative of something "bad" or "poor". On the contrary, it can be (and often is) a sign of healthy disagreement and wrangling to get at a truth, or open the past up, or some such thing. In other words, the idea that we should all just get along and "be nice", always rushing to agree, is unrealistic and not actually healthy. However, there types of people whose inner disposition leads them to tolerate this only so much. Now, I won't disagree with you that on this particular thread things got personal in a silly way, but I would disagree with you that the goal and purpose of this thread (or all social media/communications) is to find common ground. Sometimes, the "common ground" is the realization that there is no common ground... I'm not making value judgments or trying to generalize from what I've observed over the last 24 hours. All I'm saying is the communication dynamics on this thread for the last 24 hours did nothing good for anyone. As I posted a few hundred posts ago, I found it to be tedious, boring, and of no value. Others may have gotten more out of it. Sorry, had to flip the lp and get some more wine. I certainly don't think the confrontational nature of the thread benefitted anyone or allowed them to get more value out of the information. Did it help you learn anything? Do you think you converted any disbelievers to you point of view? Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Any hi-res streaming service is going to need content from The Big 3 to get any kind of traction and they could easily be forced to use MQA if these three labels decide that's the best way to project hi-res content. Hopefully, it won't come to that but I'm keeping my rose colored glasses in my pocket when it comes to this proprietary solution. Fair enough. One more question - do you think that Pandora and Rhapsody know less about this subject than you? (no offense meant) Link to comment
jbwhite Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What you're saying is totally fair. My only response is that narcissists almost always hate me. :-) Is it only narcissists? (Sorry) I don't know how to do any of those emoji things or I would post one of those smiley faces we all learned to hate back in the day! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What can we do to work for the future we want in this regard? Vote with our dollars and hope that works; try to convince labels that historically, open sales have worked better *for the labels* than tight control. (Apple saved the music industry against its will by giving the public the convenient purchase of individual hits they wanted. Industry execs have subsequently been quoted saying they won't make that "mistake" again, so I'm dubious about the ability to show the labels where their best interests actually lie.) Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I generally think that is a good thing...eggs all in one basket etc... I have been pretty vocal on several sites about my hesitancy with Tidal MQA, but I have to say that despite my aversion (lossy, proprietary manipulation of data etc...) to MQA and some hit or misses sonically, my recent experience suggests that Tidal software decoded MQA with a non-MQA DAC is overall a good sounding thing. Listening to Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" (not music I really like) at least convinced me that Tidal MQA can sound REALLY good. This has been my experience as well. As I've said, as a human being and not some perceived "expert" or "authority", streaming hi-res from Tidal at no additional cost is . . . good (for me). Link to comment
crenca Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What can we do to work for the future we want in this regard? Two off the top of my (unapologetically pro-consumer) head: 1) Communicate - perhaps even have a real and viable "audiophile press" that understands what happens if MQA (or anything like it) becomes the de facto digital standard and informs its readers. So far, only "the forums" and a few industry players (Benchmark, Linn, etc.) have dared broached the subject. 2) "Vote" with our wallets. Avoid MQA (or anything like it) to the extant that you can (this will vary from consumer to consumer). I really enjoy Tidal myself, but I am going to switch to Spotify and/or a non DRMed 16/44 format provider soon. I certainly won't be purchasing any MQA downloads. I am going to do my best to avoid brands who make a show of and openly support MQA compatability, but this might not always be possible. 3) Understanding: see what others are doing to really understand the technical and legal aspects of MQA - and not just take Bob's word for it. Make an effort to understand the place standards have in your digital world. Look at market trends and the business case that is driving a desire for MQA or something like it, etc. Individual consumers of course have no significant leverage, but even a minority together have a bit and it's worth exercising. Sure, it has a bit of "activist" or "I'm a hippy and gonna change the world" to it all and thus the weakness that imply's, but it is something nonetheless. Consumers don't have to walk blindly into the glorious DRMed musical future... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Vote with our dollars and hope that works; try to convince labels that historically, open sales have worked better *for the labels* than tight control. (Apple saved the music industry against its will by giving the public the convenient purchase of individual hits they wanted. Industry execs have subsequently been quoted saying they won't make that "mistake" again, so I'm dubious about the ability to show the labels where their best interests actually lie.) Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile Thanks for that. I have to admit that I have no interest in the music released by the 3 majors. I'd imagine most audiophiles, demographically speaking, have no interest in new music from the big 3 either. Their "war chest" has been fitfully looted - how many more reissues of "Kind Of Blue" does anyone need - so my thoughts are that the concern here is more altruistic. Link to comment
new_media Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I think I understand my disconnect. The concern with MQA is the idea that they may become the de-facto standard for hi-res some day because the big three record labels may eventually realize that MQA offers them more control of downloads. And, if we recognize this eventuality, we can do something about it today. Is this correct? If so, what can *we* do to make sure this will not happen? Yes, this is exactly it, and I think we collectively need to make it clear that while MQA may be a great streaming technology, we would like to have the option of downloading hi-res PCM/DSD. I buy at least 50 albums a year in lossless FLAC, and I will always want to own my favorite albums. As you have already stated, though, the audiophile voice is a shrinking commodity. Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Two off the top of my (unapologetically pro-consumer) head: 1) Communicate - perhaps even have a real and viable "audiophile press" that understands what happens if MQA (or anything like it) becomes the de facto digital standard and informs its readers. So far, only "the forums" and a few industry players (Benchmark, Linn, etc.) have dared broached the subject. 2) "Vote" with our wallets. Avoid MQA (or anything like it) to the extant that you can (this will vary from consumer to consumer). I really enjoy Tidal myself, but I am going to switch to Spotify and/or a non DRMed 16/44 format provider soon. I certainly won't be purchasing any MQA downloads. I am going to do my best to avoid brands who make a show of and openly support MQA compatability, but this might not always be possible. 3) Understanding: see what others are doing to really understand the technical and legal aspects of MQA - and not just take Bob's word for it. Make an effort to understand the place standards have in your digital world. Look at market trends and the business case that is driving a desire for MQA or something like it, etc. Individual consumers of course have no significant leverage, but even a minority together have a bit and it's worth exercising. Sure, it has a bit of "activist" or "I'm a hippy and gonna change the world" to it all and thus the weakness that imply's, but it is something nonetheless. Consumers don't have to walk blindly into the glorious DRMed musical future... Thank for your reasoned response. Question - what are the DRM issues with streaming MQA content from Tidal? Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Yes, this is exactly it, and I think we collectively need to make it clear that while MQA may be a great streaming technology, we would like to have the option of downloading hi-res PCM/DSD. I buy at least 50 albums a year in lossless FLAC, and I will always want to own my favorite albums. As you have already stated, though, the audiophile voice is a shrinking commodity. I'm curious - are the records you buy in lossless FLAC released by the 3 major labels? Link to comment
crenca Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I certainly don't think the confrontational nature of the thread benefitted anyone or allowed them to get more value out of the information. Did it help you learn anything? Do you think you converted any disbelievers to you point of view? Actually, not all communication (even most) is about convincing the other side or "converting" - much of it is simply a mess where people are trying to figure out what is being said about what at all. This is a "benefit" that is not often talked about but is real. Again, the personal tit for tat is all but useless. However, in the real world there is always (always always always) some amount of that and the idea that we can "purge" such unpleasantness completely is idealistic (that is to say, unrealistic). I bet you wish you had better communication with your wife. I bet after the last fight you promised yourself you were never going to stoop to such a level again. I also know (as sure as the sun is going to rise tomorrow) that you will do exactly that (stoop low, even lower) within a week, or a month - soon, soon you will be saying awful things to your wife. I could ask you "do you think that helps/converts/etc." but we both know the answer to that question... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
kumakuma Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 One more question - do you think that Pandora and Rhapsody know less about this subject than you? (no offense meant) I'm sure their crystal balls are just as cloudy as ours. It does appear that switching over to MQA at some point in the future (a la Tidal) wouldn't seem to be that much a big deal from their standpoint. I would be wary of reading too much into their actions though. After all, these companies as just retailers, selling whatever they get from record labels, in whatever format the record labels decides to provide it in. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
new_media Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I'm curious - are the records you buy in lossless FLAC released by the 3 major labels? Certainly some of them. I buy from a fair number of indie labels as well. Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I'm sure their crystal balls are just as cloudy as ours. It does appear that switching over to MQA at some point in the future (a la Tidal) wouldn't seem to be that much a big deal from their standpoint. I would be wary of reading too much into their actions though. After all, these companies as just retailers, selling whatever they get from record labels, in whatever format the record labels decides to provide it in. If I'm not going to "read into", i.e. report on, what the major players in the industry *do*, are you suggesting that I should report on forum posts? (I'm being serious) Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Certainly some of them. I buy from a fair number of indie labels as well. Thanks. Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Is it only narcissists? (Sorry) I don't know how to do any of those emoji things or I would post one of those smiley faces we all learned to hate back in the day! No emoji needed. I totally get it. Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Two off the top of my (unapologetically pro-consumer) head: 1) Communicate - perhaps even have a real and viable "audiophile press" that understands what happens if MQA (or anything like it) becomes the de facto digital standard and informs its readers. So far, only "the forums" and a few industry players (Benchmark, Linn, etc.) have dared broached the subject. 2) "Vote" with our wallets. Avoid MQA (or anything like it) to the extant that you can (this will vary from consumer to consumer). I really enjoy Tidal myself, but I am going to switch to Spotify and/or a non DRMed 16/44 format provider soon. I certainly won't be purchasing any MQA downloads. I am going to do my best to avoid brands who make a show of and openly support MQA compatability, but this might not always be possible. 3) Understanding: see what others are doing to really understand the technical and legal aspects of MQA - and not just take Bob's word for it. Make an effort to understand the place standards have in your digital world. Look at market trends and the business case that is driving a desire for MQA or something like it, etc. Individual consumers of course have no significant leverage, but even a minority together have a bit and it's worth exercising. Sure, it has a bit of "activist" or "I'm a hippy and gonna change the world" to it all and thus the weakness that imply's, but it is something nonetheless. Consumers don't have to walk blindly into the glorious DRMed musical future... Best post in the last 10 pages!!!!!!! Perhaps this thread has been salvaged after all! Link to comment
crenca Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thank for your reasoned response. Question - what are the DRM issues with streaming MQA content from Tidal? Besides the fact that I am allowing DRM into a space (i.e. my digital musical ecosystem) where I don't want it, it is (right now) all about market penetration and consumer acceptance. MQA needs a foothold and a demonstration so that they can say to the market "see, we are your solution" (to "the industry"). It's what people get used to. Video is heavily DRMed because (putting aside that particular act of congress) the "average" consumer readily accepts it mostly because they don't know any better - they can't remember a time when it was not this way. However, in digital music we have it better and we don't necessarily have to accept it unless you buy into the idea that it is inevitable. I actually lean toward the speculation that long term, DRM and digital music is an almost sure thing - but the hopeful side of me looks for a way out... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
new_media Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thanks. Two weeks into this year I have bought new albums from The xx (24/96 FLAC on indie label Young Turks) and The Flaming Lips (24/96 FLAC on Warner.) Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Besides the fact that I am allowing DRM into a space (i.e. my digital musical ecosystem) where I don't want it, it is (right now) all about market penetration and consumer acceptance. MQA needs a foothold and a demonstration so that they can say to the market "see, we are your solution" (to "the industry"). It's what people get used to. Video is heavily DRMed because (putting aside that particular act of congress) the "average" consumer readily accepts it mostly because they don't know any better - they can't remember a time when it was not this way. However, in digital music we have it better and we don't necessarily have to accept it unless you buy into the idea that it is inevitable. I actually lean toward the speculation that long term, DRM and digital music is an almost sure thing - but the hopeful side of me looks for a way out... So you see Tidal's MQA deal as being more significant in the eyes of the labels than the fact that other larger and more influential streaming services are not adopting MQA? Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Two weeks into this year I have bought new albums from The xx (24/96 FLAC on indie label Young Turks) and The Flaming Lips (24/96 FLAC on Warner.) I bought The xx too. Link to comment
new_media Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I bought The xx too. Good stuff. Link to comment
plissken Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I'm curious - are the records you buy in lossless FLAC released by the 3 major labels? The albums purchased based on open formats are easily trans-coded to FLAC. Link to comment
Michael Lavorgna Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The albums purchased based on open formats are easily trans-coded to FLAC. I was simply using his words. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 If I'm not going to "read into", i.e. report on, what the major players in the industry *do*, are you suggesting that I should report on forum posts? (I'm being serious) I think there is a difference between reporting on what they do (or say) and making predictions based on their actions (or statements). In other words, I disagree with your assumption that because Pandora and Rhapsody have announced non-MQA hi-res streaming services AND because these companies know more about the industry than we do, there will be non-MQA sources of hi-res music from the major suppliers of content for the foreseeable future. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
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