sdolezalek Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Richard, thank your for posting this because it illustrates a crucial and often misunderstood aspect of DRM - that it is not any technical aspect of it that is decisive, but rather the legal aspect that is important. Let us take the point further. for example, since a record player can not play a DSD file, then it must be because DRM. Or because a player piano can not play a wax disk, it must be because of DRM. Or because my car won't move with square wheels, then it must because DRM. Clearly, by focusing on the technical aspect we very quickly are led into obvious absurdities. Of course, certain technical things only work with devices that were designed for them. However, there would be nothing legally to stop you from modifying a certain device to play a certain software file. For example, you could modify (perhaps through a firmware update) your player to play ALAC, and there would be no licensing restrictions for doing so (putting aside Apple/Alac rights for argument sake), or you could modify a PCM DAC to accept DSD and the original manufacturer has no legal rights or hold on you, and neither the PCM or DSD format will restrict you either. However, try modifying your "legacy" DAC (through reverse engineering the proprietary MQA algorithm) so that you can hear MQA in all its native glory and you are in a world of DRM, IP/software patent violations, etc. The design of MQA takes this into account from the beginning - it is designed to deliver one thing to a certain kind of licensed user and another to another kind of licensed user, and to provide legal recourse to the licensee. This is what makes MQA DRM, all day everyday. The reduction of DRM to mere technical limitation of copy protection reduces DRM to absurdity pretty quickly as you illustrate... Unfortunately, your own example falls directly into the obvious absurdies example it gives. If you were to modify that old player to play any format (whether ALAC, DSD or MQA) that is protected by patent, then you would be violating that patent, whether or not it was ever intended for DRM purposes or not. So either every proprietary format is by definition "DRM" (which would include Jussi's filters in HQPlayer) or you need a more specific definition of DRM. Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6) Link to comment
Jud Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 HEY Ralf11- isn't that a restaurant in syracuse's armory square? all home made pasta I think it's a great idea to talk about pasta - just as relevant and a heck of a lot more pleasant than the past couple of pages. You like the thin or thick spaghetti noodles? Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
rickca Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Here's a summary. I fart in your general direction. Now go away, before I taunt you a second time! Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
jbwhite Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I see. It tends to be kind of interesting though. Anyway, Tidal's new MQA content appears to have triggered these fresh discussions about MQA. I think it's relevant to evaluate the actual quality of said content.. I couldn't agree more about the value in discussing the actual quality of MQA content. But it seems like you and the person you replied to are the only posts of that nature. The rest of it I find tedious, boring and worthless. Link to comment
bobbmd Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Jud- very thin like angel hair-ever been to syracuse? another great restaurant is the DINOSAUR bbq-branches in rochester ny newark nj brooklyn and harlem always shown during su basketball games. are you in bethlehem pa? my son and his st lawrence buds play golf at the old bethlehem steel golf club i guess it's only a short drive for them from nyc aren't you getting a little exhausted from all this MQA banter? I really like it tho and have made a playlist of all the DEAD albums now available plus the tribute to Jerry sounds really good without a MQA DAC just from the TIDAL desktop Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Sorry Sam, but you're truly making a fool of yourself.. Just tell us about your first MQA SQ experiences please. Makes more sense me thinks.. Your tolerance for Mr. Lavorgna's behavior seems to be rather asymmetrical to your tolerance for mine. Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 My limited experience with "fully decoded" MQA is with a Meridian Explorer 2. While I will concede that the sound quality of $200 DACs continues to improve, the general coloration of the DAC will undoubtedly color the MQA decoding. After listening for several days to nothing but that E2 (MQA and not), I will say that I much prefer the overall sound of iDSD Micro/HQPlayer (Redbook and up) to the sound of the E2 (with upsampled PCM). MQA? I can't find an equivalent non-MQA-ed file to A/B. The MQA-ed file always sounds "remastered", even compared to a 192kHz file. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Jud- very thin like angel hair-ever been to syracuse? another great restaurant is the DINOSAUR bbq-branches in rochester ny newark nj brooklyn and harlem always shown during su basketball games.are you in bethlehem pa? my son and his st lawrence buds play golf at the old bethlehem steel golf club i guess it's only a short drive for them from nyc aren't you getting a little exhausted from all this MQA banter? I really like it tho and have made a playlist of all the DEAD albums now available plus the tribute to Jerry sounds really good without a MQA DAC just from the TIDAL desktop No longer live in Bethlehem, but it's where I was born and grew up. Great town. Holds a huge music festival every summer. For more traditional stuff, the Bach Choir (America's oldest) at least used to give a week of concerts every year at Packer Chapel on the Lehigh campus, culminating with the B Minor Mass. In good weather the church doors were opened so people could gather on the lawns outside and listen for free. I don't know if this still goes on. Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Vincent1234 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Your tolerance for Mr. Lavorgna's behavior seems to be rather asymmetrical to your tolerance for mine. I'll pass, thanks. That's rather childish IMO but it's fine. If you like throwing mud more than talking about MQA's SQ who am I to object? This thread is already polluted beyond recognition anyway. To each his own. NOTE: Sam has changed the above comment after my response and has now shared his first impressions on MQA SQ. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Computer Audiophile mobile app Link to comment
jiminlogansquare Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 No longer live in Bethlehem, but it's where I was born and grew up. Great town. Holds a huge music festival every summer. For more traditional stuff, the Bach Choir (America's oldest) at least used to give a week of concerts every year at Packer Chapel on the Lehigh campus, culminating with the B Minor Mass. In good weather the church doors were opened so people could gather on the lawns outside and listen for free. I don't know if this still goes on. Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile So long as this thread is now including recommendations for Italian-American food in Syracuse, NY: If you want the real deal Syracuse Italian-American stuff, you should go to Angotti's https://www.facebook.com/linda.thorpestanger/posts/10208120828725697 Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 That's rather childish IMO but it's fine. If you like throwing mud more than talking about MQA's SQ who am I to object? This thread is already polluted beyond recognition anyway. To each his own. I changed my mind and posted some thoughts. You're not disputing a pro-Lavorgna bias though, right? P.S.: Cleaning up that HTC ad every time I reply is tiresome. Link to comment
Vincent1234 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Your tolerance for Mr. Lavorgna's behavior seems to be rather asymmetrical to your tolerance for mine. Thanks for changing your initial response. [emoji4] Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Computer Audiophile mobile app Link to comment
Vincent1234 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I changed my mind and posted some thoughts. You're not disputing a pro-Lavorgna bias though, right? P.S.: Cleaning up that HTC ad every time I reply is tiresome. We're fine. [emoji4] I've added a remark about it in my initial response. I'm off to bed now, it's past 03:00 over here. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Computer Audiophile mobile app Link to comment
bobbmd Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 to jiminlogansquare: agree plus luigi's in the valley his daughter just closed it old enrico's also in valley joey's and the asti and the old villa and caroma but not dominick's pastabilities isn't italian just a pasta place Link to comment
sedest Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 It can hardly be overstated to those who want to focus on "proof" of what MQA and the industry is after - video is their template to the DRMing of our musical digital lives... Let me help with a concrete example. I have an Amazon Prime subscription and access to Instant Video content, nice stuff actually. Problem is I can not stream Amazon content to any of my Chromecast devices. It is an obvious move of Amazon forcing me to spend money on Fire TV Stick. Oh, and by the way, try to search for Chromecast at Amazon, and see the actual result... Link to comment
Melvin Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Let me help with a concrete example. I have an Amazon Prime subscription and access to Instant Video content, nice stuff actually. Problem is I can not stream Amazon content to any of my Chromecast devices. It is an obvious move of Amazon forcing me to spend money on Fire TV Stick. Oh, and by the way, try to search for Chromecast at Amazon, and see the actual result... Fire Stick or Roku or iOS or ... Link to comment
sedest Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Fire Stick or Roku or iOS or ... Yes, never mind... Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I think it's a great idea to talk about pasta - just as relevant and a heck of a lot more pleasant than the past couple of pages. You like the thin or thick spaghetti noodles? Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile Bucatini is the king of the spaghetti-like noodles I used to like lasagna too - not so much now Link to comment
Melvin Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I'm feeling the need for a road trip to Syracuse. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Bucatini is the king of the spaghetti-like noodles I used to like lasagna too - not so much now Big +1 for bucatini - something with substance. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
plissken Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 ]I do not place any value, whatsoever, on listening "tests" in audio for a number of reasons. I've gone into detail on AS but I will say that any "test" creates an artificial condition that does not exist otherwise. Perhaps more to the point, my belief is that this hobby is about the experience and enjoyment of listening to music. And that is a cop out. What was the 'natural' condition that allowed you to hear 'easy to discern' and 'readily apparent' differences? You essentially compared cable A to cable B. You aren't being asked to do anything other than that. You don't need to know the cable in your system to evaluate it's characteristics. Your claims are being tested. How is it a 'natural' condition to go to a show and hear differences in Ethernet cabling? Link to comment
plissken Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Archimago's Musings: COMPARISON: TIDAL / MQA stream & high-resolution downloads; impressions & thoughts... As with most his musings I find his technical take on MQA informative. Link to comment
new_media Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I absolutely consider the restriction on MQA to be a form of DRM. Any audio file that I am unable to convert to another format and play back at full resolution, I consider to have DRM. It's fine for streaming but I wouldn't buy an album in MQA unless it was the only option, and that in and of itself would be a pretty strong deterrent. I would definitely buy straight up redbook before I would buy MQA. Link to comment
jhwalker Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I absolutely consider the restriction on MQA to be a form of DRM. Any audio file that I am unable to convert to another format and play back at full resolution, I consider to have DRM. It's fine for streaming but I wouldn't buy an album in MQA unless it was the only option, and that in and of itself would be a pretty strong deterrent. I would definitely buy straight up redbook before I would buy MQA. So you consider *any* lossy format (e.g., MP3, AAC, WMA) or lossy transform (e.g., PCM <> DSD) to be a form of DRM? I think we're getting a bit hysterical about "DRM" John Walker - IT Executive Headphone - SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable Ethernet > mRendu Roon endpoint > Topping D90 > Topping A90d > Dan Clark Expanse / HiFiMan H6SE v2 / HiFiman Arya Stealth Home Theater / Music -SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable HDMI > Denon X3700h > Anthem Amp for front channels > Revel F208-based 5.2.4 Atmos speaker system Link to comment
new_media Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 So you consider *any* lossy format (e.g., MP3, AAC, WMA) or lossy transform (e.g., PCM <> DSD) to be a form of DRM? I think we're getting a bit hysterical about "DRM" Nope, what I meant was the full resolution of the file I'm converting from. I could convert any of those lossy formats to FLAC or ALAC, and I wouldn't lose any resolution. If I buy an album in MQA and then MQA DACs go off the market, I have no way of ever listening to those files at full resolution again. DSD <> PCM is a flawed analogy. MQA is based on PCM, and could be converted to PCM without further loss were it not for their restrictions. Link to comment
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