MQA is Vaporware

[psjug]

10 hours ago, crenca said:

 

I suppose this might be true because of Tidal, but simply because the X number of MQA processed albums are up on Tidal does not mean that these are having any real impact.  Are they leading to $sales$ of some sort, such as Tidal subscriptions (because of MQA) or DAC's purchased specifically for MQA?  I suspect besides some bleeding edge audiophiles, very very few are specifically ordering MQA DAC's because of the MQA capability of said DACS.  It might be a feature, but it is not actually attracting real sales.  

 

Anyone have any hard data?

Well Tidal is tiny and losing market share.  And of the Tidal subscribers, a couple million at most, I doubt very many are specifically wanting to stream MQA.  Maybe a couple hundred thousand at most? 

 

Notice that Tidals introduction of MQA streaming (beginning of 2017) did not give any bump.  In fact Tidal's trend looks worse than the overall industry for first half of 2017.

 

If Deezer follows through with offering MQA it will help (MQA) but you could still they will be in the vaporware realm.

 

From https://musicindustryblog.wordpress.com/

[Traildog]

44 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

He wasn’t banned for his criticism. He was banned for calling people fools and idiots, despite several warnings and friendly attempts to get him to stop the personal attacks. I have one set of rules. If you can’t play by them I have to ban your account

He was calling the people who were calling him names idiots and fools. I suggest that calling someone a whore is several steps worse than calling someone a fool.

 

But anyway, it's your show and you can do what you like. But I really feel he's been unfairly treated on this thread and I'm surprised he stayed around. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

57 minutes ago, Melvin said:

Mr. Lucey's banning is the most disappointing turn of events I've seen on CA in quite some time. Chris obviously has his standards but this dude has serious credentials. Another one gone ...

 

Your disappointment should be directed at him. Many people tried to encourage civil discussions with him, but he refused. 

 

No matter one’s credentials, one can’t treat people like dirt and get away with it. 

 

With respect to credentials, I’m guessing you’re referring to the number of albums he has mastered? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Traildog said:

He was calling the people who were calling him names idiots and fools. I suggest that calling someone a whore is several steps worse than calling someone a fool.

 

But anyway, it's your show and you can do what you like. But I really feel he's been unfairly treated on this thread and I'm surprised he stayed around. 

Please show me the post calling him a whore and I will happily enforce the same standards. 

[kumakuma]

4 hours ago, Shadders said:

On the upper 8bits being clean - someone else on another forum showed this - 24bit recordings, the 8 upper bits were clear. We should not have to check that we are being conned.

 

Can you point me to a reference to this?

 

I checked the Shania recording I mentioned above and the 8 upper bits of the 24/44.1 release are NOT clear as you can see in the Bit Monitor in upper left hand corner:

 

[synn]

1 hour ago, Traildog said:

He was calling the people who were calling him names idiots and fools. I suggest that calling someone a whore is several steps worse than calling someone a fool.

 

But anyway, it's your show and you can do what you like. But I really feel he's been unfairly treated on this thread and I'm surprised he stayed around. 

I am the person whom he called an armchair asshole an idiot and so on.

 

i have not called him any names. I have only criticized his general unpleasant behavior and he holier than thou attitude. Life has taught me that the smartest guy in the room never has to proclaim repeatedly that he is so. 

 

i did not ask him to be banned because I can take some heat, especially when it is dished out by someone too insecure in their own shoes. But I respect @The Computer Audiophile‘s decision and hope that Mr.Lucey finds more productive things to do with his free time.

 

onwards with MQA, then?

[Shadders]

20 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Can you point me to a reference to this?

 

I checked the Shania recording I mentioned above and the 8 upper bits of the 24/44.1 release are NOT clear as you can see in the Bit Monitor in upper left hand corner:

 

Hi kumakuma,

It was another forum, and not the Shania Twain recording. I will try and locate it - was about 5 years ago now.

EDIT - Just checked - the forum was upgraded 1 year ao and all posts preceding this are now gone.

Regards,

Shadders.

[psjug]

5 minutes ago, synn said:

I am the person whom he called an armchair asshole an idiot and so on.

 

i have not called him any names. I have only criticized his general unpleasant behavior and he holier than thou attitude. Life has taught me that the smartest guy in the room never has to proclaim repeatedly that he is so. 

 

i did not ask him to be banned because I can take some heat, especially when it is dished out by someone too insecure in their own shoes. But I respect @The Computer Audiophile‘s decision and hope that Mr.Lucey finds more productive things to do with his free time.

 

onwards with MQA, then?

There was also the McDonald's drivethrough comment and saying that a robot could just as well  do his work.  Clearly the insults flowed both ways.

[kumakuma]

3 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi kumakuma,

It was another forum, and not the Shania Twain recording. I will try and locate it - was about 5 years ago now.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

 

No need to bother.

 

HDTracks (and others) had some real quality control issues in the early days and ended up selling some upsampled releases as received from the labels without checking to see if they were legit.

 

In my experience, these problems are a things of the past and it is extremely rare to find HR releases these days that aren't legit.

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

11 hours ago, esldude said:

I have run into two other guys who had similar opinions and contempt for listeners.  Both were mastering pros, and both defended modern loud recordings as a superior way to do modern music that has no base in the acoustic world.  Both were simply impossible to not just reason with, but to have a conversation with about the dynamic range of music.  Like BL they insisted vehemently that you just didn't get the value of loud, loud, LOUD music.  Very strange to me.  It wasn't enough to say you preferred loud music, they seemed intent upon denigrating anyone with a different opinion.  

 

To my knowledge this doesn't mean such is the norm for mastering people.  Several more seem to not at all have that opinion.  Then again some of them said the situation is loud wins in modern context though they would prefer to be able to work with more DR.  So maybe they were hack mastering guys.  

 

So I would not say BL's opinion of listeners and apparent contempt toward them is the norm among mastering professionals, but it isn't exactly unheard of from anyone else.  You can imagine how well discussions of people with the opinion that without LP we don't need mastering anymore will go with such people.  

 

I agree that some (and I do mean some) mastering engineers believe that anyone critical of excessive loudness is clueless.  Their argument always goes something like, "are you working with A-list talent?  how many top selling titles have you mastered?", etc.  There is a kind of aggressive hubris that pervades the entertainment industry, but there are others who work there that are reasonable, even open minded.  I always use Bob Katz as an example of this.  His initiatives to lower loudness levels in mastering is a service to us all.

 

And your point about pop music vs. "acoustic music" is well taken.  Personally, I get bored quickly with music that is made just to sound great on high end equipment, but I respect those who seek out that content.  My tastes lie somewhere in between.  But I've never warmed up to any material that exceeds -12 LUFS (random example, the most recent Redbook Fleetwood Mac Rumors Dreams track master clocks in at -12.4 LUFS - barely listenable to me) regardless of artist or genre.  For me, it causes listening fatigue 100% of the time.  -16 LUFS is a good target in my experience.

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 hours ago, psjug said:

Well Tidal is tiny and losing market share.  And of the Tidal subscribers, a couple million at most, I doubt very many are specifically wanting to stream MQA.  Maybe a couple hundred thousand at most? 

 

Notice that Tidals introduction of MQA streaming (beginning of 2017) did not give any bump.  In fact Tidal's trend looks worse than the overall industry for first half of 2017.

 

If Deezer follows through with offering MQA it will help (MQA) but you could still they will be in the vaporware realm.

 

From https://musicindustryblog.wordpress.com/

 

Holy crap, look at Youtube!!!  The actual blog post that graphic comes from is here.

 

And I didn't expect to see Amazon Prime Music ahead of Apple Music for streaming.  Overall, this is a really depressing bit of truth for audiophiles.

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

And I didn't expect to see Amazon Prime Music ahead of Apple Music for streaming.

Amazon Prime Music is part of the bigger Prime package. I suspect many, if not most, subscribe to Prime for other reasons than the music streaming.

[crenca]

10 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

What is prevelant in the industry is everything is coming through amplifiers. 

 

?  I don't follow...

[crenca]

9 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Holy crap, look at Youtube!!!  The actual blog post that graphic comes from is here.

 

And I didn't expect to see Amazon Prime Music ahead of Apple Music for streaming.  Overall, this is a really depressing bit of truth for audiophiles.

 

I have noticed when discussing music with my non-audiophile friends and family that besides the car, YouTube is almost always their source...

[Samuel T Cogley]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Amazon Prime Music is part of the bigger Prime package. I suspect many, if not most, subscribe to Prime for other reasons than the music streaming.

 

Good point.  This is an inventory of subscribers, not necessarily listeners.

[psjug]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Amazon Prime Music is part of the bigger Prime package. I suspect many, if not most, subscribe to Prime for other reasons than the music streaming.

Amazon Prime members get a discount but still have to pay $7.99/mo for Amazon Music Unlimited (in addition to the prime membership fee).

[Rt66indierock]

11 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

?  I don't follow...

 

Think everything has microphone that goes to a amplifier speaker like an electric guitar. 

[wushuliu]

22 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Holy crap, look at Youtube!!!  The actual blog post that graphic comes from is here.

 

And I didn't expect to see Amazon Prime Music ahead of Apple Music for streaming.  Overall, this is a really depressing bit of truth for audiophiles.

 

Which is why I don't fault Lucey for his perspective. We make up .00000notworthit of the streaming community. Difference is we are willing to pay whatever it takes for any shiny new object. 

 

Let's be clear, it's been 4 years. By any mainstream metric, MQA is dead in the water. Same as DSD. But for this micro-niche community, slapping the logo on a product and buying a license means you can have a new product cycle, added value, and a whole new infusion of cash that makes the licensing cost worth it.

 

It's easy money, and for that I don't blame the audio companies. The trade reporting and audiophile community response however, have no excuse. I have never seen a topic over which both objective-minded AND subjective-minded people have been in such agreement: MQA is a scam.

[Samuel T Cogley]

7 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

 

Which is why I don't fault Lucey for his perspective. We make up .00000notworthit of the streaming community. Difference is we are willing to pay whatever it takes for any shiny new object. 

 

Let's be clear, it's been 4 years. By any mainstream metric, MQA is dead in the water. Same as DSD. But for this micro-niche community, slapping the logo on a product and buying a license means you can have a new product cycle, added value, and a whole new infusion of cash that makes the licensing cost worth it.

 

It's easy money, and for that I don't blame the audio companies. The trade reporting and audiophile community response however, have no excuse. I have never seen a topic over which both objective-minded AND subjective-minded people have been in such agreement: MQA is a scam.

 

I think we agree.  My only issue is that in his zeal to (correctly IMHO) point to the misinformation about MQA, he apparently missed the second word of the title of this site/forum: Audiophile.  And while I would be lying to say I've never coveted a shiny audio object, I would like to think that I'm somewhat discriminating regarding precisely which shiny object I'm coveting.  A distinction without a difference, perhaps.

 

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I think we agree.  My only issue is that in his zeal to (correctly IMHO) point to the misinformation about MQA, he apparently missed the second word of the title of this site/forum: Audiophile.  And while I would be lying to say I've never coveted a shiny audio object, I would like to think that I'm somewhat discriminating regarding precisely which shiny object I'm coveting.  A distinction without a difference, perhaps.

 

 

It seemed to me that he has a picture in his mind of what an audiophile is and no interest at all in altering that view of the world.

 

It's a shame because if he'd taken the time to listen to what people were telling him, he would have found that many of the folks agree with much of what he had to say.

[psjug]

50 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Holy crap, look at Youtube!!!  The actual blog post that graphic comes from is here.

 

And I didn't expect to see Amazon Prime Music ahead of Apple Music for streaming.  Overall, this is a really depressing bit of truth for audiophiles.

Also, the chart doesn't include Pandora Premium, which is too new for that timeframe.  I think Pandora Premium is probably #5 already, even though it only streams at 192kbps max!   I do worry that high quality is so unimportant to most people that CD quality  or better streaming might go away in a few years if Tidal, Deezer, Qobuz, etc can't make money to stay afloat.

[Mordikai]

41 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

I have noticed when discussing music with my non-audiophile friends and family that besides the car, YouTube is almost always their source...

yes, and do they complain much about the audio quality? My guess would be no. Most people don't care about the quality of the playback, if the tune is catchy they listen.

So MQA = niche Audiophile product, which many Audiophiles hate and is actually lossy and is probably a drm scheme. Wow I don't see how it can lose.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, psjug said:

Amazon Prime members get a discount but still have to pay $7.99/mo for Amazon Music Unlimited (in addition to the prime membership fee).

Amazon Prime Music is not the same as Amazon Music Unlimited. The former is part of the Prime package and gives access to a limited catalogue. The latter is a separate subscription (with a discount for Prime members) and includes their full catalogue.

[psjug]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

Amazon Prime Music is not the same as Amazon Music Unlimited. The former is part of the Prime package and gives access to a limited catalogue. The latter is a separate subscription (with a discount for Prime members) and includes their full catalogue.

You are correct.  Thanks for catching that.  Similarly, I think what I saw for Pandora subscriber numbers probably included their lower cost services along with Pandora Premium.

[Samuel T Cogley]

25 minutes ago, mansr said:

Amazon Prime Music is not the same as Amazon Music Unlimited. The former is part of the Prime package and gives access to a limited catalogue. The latter is a separate subscription (with a discount for Prime members) and includes their full catalogue.

 

I'd like to add my experience to this.  Over the years, I have purchased a LOT of CD's from Amazon.  Almost every one of those titles is available to me in the Amazon Music app.  But I've never signed up for Amazon Prime Music (I am a regular Prime member).  My point is they're probably counting me as a "subscriber", even though I'm not really.

 

Before I hit the submit button on this post, I launched the Amazon Music app on my iPhone.  I have access to "stations" (like Pandora) that play all kinds of content outside of my purchased CDs, but there is no "on demand" playing of content there.  There is a separate "My Music" section that contains all the tracks from all the CDs I have purchased.  It looks like I also get limited access to new releases that are covered by my Prime membership (small Prime logo next to the tracks).

 

I'll just bet they're counting me as a "subscriber".