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MQA is Vaporware


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On July 25, 2017 at 10:58 AM, soxr said:


At least real studio engineers authenticate MQA not to be the original studio sound, but:
 


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12548751-post460.html

So MQA deblur (killing post-ringing of minimum phase resampling in the renderer phase with weird filters) is the shit sold to audiophiles as the new PCM, but it's not the studio sound.

And let's remember: all DSP applied by MQA is still in the PCM domain.
 

Question: is the "studio engineer" in the post cited listening to alternative A., the actual sound in the air within the studio?  Or, is he listening to Alternative B. the mike feed from within the studio, converted a-d through his mixing board and played back via d-a through his monitor system and speakers?  It might make a difference.

 

But, it is clear that some people consider Alternative A. the reference.  Others, vote for B.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Question: is the "studio engineer" in the post cited listening to alternative A., the actual sound in the air within the studio?  Or, is he listening to Alternative B. the mike feed from within the studio, converted a-d through his mixing board and played back via d-a through his monitor system and speakers?  It might make a difference.

 

But, it is clear that some people consider Alternative A. the reference.  Others, vote for B.

 

 

 

From following that thread, it's quite clear that he is comparing what was sent to be MQA processed against what comes back.

 

A "studio engineer"'s reference is always B. It's the tracking engineer's job to make the sound on the monitors match the artist's and producer's expectations, which may or may not resemble the sound in the studio. This typically involves using microphone choice and positioning, EQ and compression to modify the sound from the instrument.

"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

The forum would be a much better place if everyone were less convinced of how right they were.

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  • 2 weeks later...

MQA will get competition from DSD streaming.

Qobuz is going to offer DSD streaming somewhere between september and the end of this year.

http://blogsv2.qobuz.com/qobuz-blog-en/2017/04/03/march-29-2017-our-new-announcements-qobuzisback/ (mentions september)
https://www.alpha-audio.nl/2017/08/qobux-komt-richting-einde-jaar-dsd-streams/ (mentions end of the year)

This is good news, as for the DSD format, it's all well documented and implemented:

- all major players can pass DSD via DoP to DSD dac's
- all major players can decode DSD to PCM and these libaries are also available as FOSS / open source
- postprocessing decoded DSD as PCM works pretty good
- DFF and DSF formats are well documented and open
- DoP is a well documented packing format for DSD packed in PCM

a lot of players already support DSD, so to add DSD via HTTP instead of via file playback is not a big change in code, and players such as squeezelite can already to DSD over HTTP, and logitech LMS has extentions for DSD. Other open source players such as MPD also do DSD.

Doing this over HTTP will be a small change for most file based players, as they can use the excellent curl libraries to read the file from HTTP.

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9 minutes ago, George Hincapie said:

Why is Quobuz so expensive? £350 a year? WTF? I pay £20 a month for Tidal HIFI.


From the article:

1. these are real lossless 24 bit files, not lossy fake 24 bit files like MQA (as MQA is not 24 bit due to higher noise floor)
2. 60,000 albums in Qobuz 24-Bit Hi-Res  (compared to how many on tidal?)
3. listen either streamed or offline

I pay 20 euros per month for Tidal, which is 240 / year. For 110 euro extra, I have access to real studiomasters, and a much larger catalog of studiomasters. And I get to keep my existing 7.000 EURO R2R dac without having to buy a lesser MQA DAC (I have a metrum adagio, no MQA dac is going to come even close).

A good deal to me.

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36 minutes ago, soxr said:

I have access to real studiomasters

How do you define a "real studiomaster"?

Just curious.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just recorded my voice in my mobile phone. It's the real studio master :~)

Yes, that would be my definition.

I think of things like original masters of live performances along the lines of AIX, Blues Coast, etc.

Not unfortunately things like remasters of 40 yo rock recordings that are so far from the real thing that no amount of dial twisting or remastering of the analog tape to 100X PCM or DSD is ever going to help.

Sadly that describes most every single bit of the music I really love.  :(

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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10 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Yes, that would be my definition.

I think of things like original masters of live performances along the lines of AIX, Blues Coast, etc.

Not unfortunately things like remasters of 40 yo rock recordings that are so far from the real thing that no amount of dial twisting or remastering of the analog tape to 100X PCM or DSD is ever going to help.

Sadly that describes most every single bit of the music I really love.  :(

I have no idea what you mean by the above.

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56 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

How do you define a "real studiomaster"?

Just curious.

Whatever the studio mastering engineer produced, bit for bit, without lossy compression or other shenanigans.

 

54 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just recorded my voice in my mobile phone. It's the real studio master :~)

For that particular recording, absolutely.

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3 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Don't understand the confusion DA, Talking abut the difference between what we would refer to as a "purist" recording compared to the usual major label trash that has very little chance or ever sounding like real instruments playing in a real space.

So the question was more like does Qobuz contain a large catalog of audiophile labels/recordings that you won't find on the likes of Spotify and Tital?

"real instruments", "real space"..oh god, what pretentious dreck. You clearly don't know the first thing about rock and roll.

 

Enjoy tea time,

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8 hours ago, soxr said:


From the article:

1. these are real lossless 24 bit files, not lossy fake 24 bit files like MQA (as MQA is not 24 bit due to higher noise floor)
2. 60,000 albums in Qobuz 24-Bit Hi-Res  (compared to how many on tidal?)
3. listen either streamed or offline

I pay 20 euros per month for Tidal, which is 240 / year. For 110 euro extra, I have access to real studiomasters, and a much larger catalog of studiomasters. And I get to keep my existing 7.000 EURO R2R dac without having to buy a lesser MQA DAC (I have a metrum adagio, no MQA dac is going to come even close).

A good deal to me.

 

You don't need to sell Metrum to me. I moved my Musette (with DAC2 upgrade) from my main station to my headphone station and added an Aurix! Amazing :)

 

I am currently waiting for Cees to release the Onyx (Menuet replacement) and the Jade (Poor Man's Adagio) to decide which to get in my main system. If I don't just go for a Lumin A1 that is.

 

Cees makes some wonderful kit.

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7 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Yes, that would be my definition.

I think of things like original masters of live performances along the lines of AIX, Blues Coast, etc.

Not unfortunately things like remasters of 40 yo rock recordings that are so far from the real thing that no amount of dial twisting or remastering of the analog tape to 100X PCM or DSD is ever going to help.

Sadly that describes most every single bit of the music I really love.  :(

Sorry, Sal. don't think your definition makes much sense. On either a 40 year or one year old multi-track rock recording, there's going to be all sorts of editing, manipulation, and mixing.That's just how they are made. 

If the end of that process is a "recording master" that is directly turned into a "release master" with no further manipulation, then I have the "master" recording. It's the most accurate to "the original master" there is. 

Doesn't matter if it is a modern recording or an older recording.

 

It may not be the way you would like music to be recorded. But you choice is only to buy the relatively few recordings done by labels like NativeDSD -and you aren't going to find much music of the kind you like there. 

 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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9 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Not unfortunately things like remasters of 40 yo rock recordings that are so far from the real thing that no amount of dial twisting or remastering of the analog tape to 100X PCM or DSD is ever going to help.

 

Which also isn't necessary. But avoid the remasters.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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1 hour ago, firedog said:

Sorry, Sal. don't think your definition makes much sense. On either a 40 year or one year old multi-track rock recording, there's going to be all sorts of editing, manipulation, and mixing.That's just how they are made.

 

That is not what Sal meant, I think. See my previous post. However, the "remaster" he mentions could be a slip of the tongue. That not assumed, it would be true that Tidal only offers the latest versions (but often more of them) and only in rare occasions the "original" (say first transfer of analogue to digital). Fortunately many albums have not been remastered at all.

 

Btw, I highly doubt it that Spotify would have 60,000 genuine hires albums. And if they are, they won't be my style (hey, what about 40 yo rock etc. etc.).

 

But as said/implied, Redbook (no Remaster !) sounds better anyway. But get the right gear (blahblah).

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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7 hours ago, George Hincapie said:

 

Isn't that the quality you get with Tidal? And if you can stream, why would you want to download? Seems pointless...

 

Hi George,

 

No Tidal rents three different quality levels of files. For 10 units (dollars, pounds, euros) you get MP3 lossy music. For twice that much money you get CD-quality (44/16) files, with a few hundred MQA quality files thrown in. For now those small number of files don't cost more, but since MQA is not a charity, it would be unrealistic to expect that to last forever.

 

An MQA file is a pseudo-high-res file. Most start off as 96/24, a few as 192/24, and even a few as 44 or 48/16. With the 24 bit files, the bottom 7 or 8 bits are discarded, and for sampling rates above 96kHz, the audio data above 48kHz is also discarded. (That is how they achieve their smaller file size.) So the easiest way to think about MQA is that it is a lossy version of the original true high-res file - kind of like an  MP3 of a high-res files instead of an MP3 of a 44/16 file.

 

Many people like to either purchase physical discs or downloads, simply because that is something they own. It only takes a few minutes to rip a physical disc, and then one always has a backup copy that is not prone to (inevitable) hard drive failure, plus the artwork and liner notes are very nice. Even downloaded files that you own are easily backed up onto another hard drive, plus once you own the music you can put it on all of your devices - phones, portable players, household networks, whatever. On top of that you don't have to worry about losing your favorite music when the streaming service goes out of business, nor do you have to worry about them raising your rates - ever.

Remember when cable TV first came out and it was just HBO and Showtime for $20 a month and no commercials? Now most people pay around $150 per month for their cable, plus you are stuck watching more commercials than they ever dreamed of on broadcast TV. Why? Because they can and you have little choice. Most people don't like watching re-runs all the time, but most people like listening to their favorite music dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of times. That's when it makes sense to own it.

I know a lot of people who use Spotify free (with ads) just to discover new music. When they hear something they like, they will just by the CD. New CDs are typically under $10 and used ones are typically around $3.

Hope this helps!

Charles Hansen

Dumb Analog Hardware Engineer
Former Transducer Designer

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