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MQA is Vaporware


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Some feedback for the thread regarding the new iFi iDSD Nano BL (with MQA support)

 

According to the new errata on the iFi Nano BL firmware download page:

 

Quote

With PCM, LED is white as it is Upsampled 8x (Minimum Phase and Minimum Ringing filters).

 

If I'm reading this right, all PCM is upsampled to DXD internally, and the sample rate indicator will only now glow white for all PCM.  Seems like the product manager needs to have a discussion with the firmware developers about the usefulness of that light.  I was under the impression that all iFi DACs upsampled PCM internally (for the filters), but still managed to have a useful indicator for the input sample rate.  Some may see this as a nit, ok.  It's different than the other iFi DACs.

 

MQA works with both the Tidal app and Audirvana, but I find that after switching to MQA from PCM, it's often necessary to restart MQA playback (with the "start from the beginning" button) for any audio to come out of the DAC (hopefully this will improve with better firmware).  Sometimes MQA decoding doesn't kick in right (the DAC plays undecoded MQA with a white light) and the "start from the beginning" trick works here and turns the light magenta.

 

Having spent some time to reacquaint myself with the current MQA landscape, I have to say that "vaporware" is an apt descriptor.  As far as I can tell, the only way to get any significant MQA content in the U.S. is to use Tidal (I am a HiFi subscriber) and use the Tidal desktop app.  I was stunned to discover that after the long delayed AQ Dragonfly MQA-enabled firmware was released, there is still no way to play Tidal MQA on the mobile app.

 

MQA will ultimately be at the mercy of software/firmware developers to achieve any real market penetration.  The long absence of a mobile solution is rather glaring IMHO.  The Tidal Desktop App is underwhelming.  Still no way to search for MQA content. O.o

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10 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I was under the impression that all iFi DACs upsampled PCM internally (for the filters), but still managed to have a useful indicator for the input sample rate.

The older ones (Micro, Nano, iDAC2) use the built-in filters of the TI DSD1973 DAC chip. I don't know if the newer (black) models do things differently.

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Oppo just announced tidal support for one of its players.

 

On a personal note, I just ordered an Onkyo DP S1 (A Dual DAC, DSD and MQA enabled DAP). I can finally test what DSD, 192k and MQA sound when played to their fullest extent. I am not holding my breath and whatever the outcome is, I am not too keen to introduce DSD or MQA to my main listening rig.

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10 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Was that the actual master file?  What was the resolution and source?

 

Was it "better" enough to stop all future innovation in filtering and for the world to pay MQA a royalty for every transaction using this one piece of tech .... for all time?

 

Brian,

 

I think you have to evaluate the sonic merits and business elements separately.  It is possible that MQA sounds better and the business elements are not good in terms of licensing, etc.  It is possible the sonic merits are good and there are benefits to the business aspects.  It is possible that none of it is good.  There is, unfortunately no objective way to score the business pluses and minuses.  Everyone will have an opinion.

 

From a business standpoint, it might even be a trade-off.  For instance, MQA may need licensing fees to enforce standards but those standards may be beneficial.  Or it could be an evil DRM scheme too.  I don't have enough data to have an informed opinion yet.

 

 

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9 hours ago, firedog said:

Lee came here with a reasonable post and obviously good intentions. Why do we have to answer him with such a tone?  I'm sorry, there's and edge to this post that isn't warranted.

Do we have to be negative to every industry professional that posts here and drive them away?

 

Thanks Firedog.  I can only promise I will do my best here to provide an honest opinion.

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8 hours ago, rwdvis said:

This is an obvious setup.  Pretending to be undecided, neutral and unbiased.  I’ll bet a million he comes back with a positive and glowing assessment of MQA.  It’s already been scripted.  Don't be so gullible, people.

 

“exploring the pros and cons”

"I have not fully made up my mind on MQA."

 

LOL.

 

I am honestly undecided based on what I have heard and what I have read.  If you don't believe that then I am not sure there is anything I can do to convince you.

 

One reason I don't want to rush to judgment is that I am still learning as a recording professional what the new work flow for engineers will be like.  Even my friend Mehow at Mytek is still working on that.  One thing MQA has to do, imho, for success is get a workflow that professionals can use without too much inconvenience.

 

Also, the whole are of DRM versus enforcing a standard is a bit murky to me but I will dig deeper on that and share what I learn as long as folks here show some respect.

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1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Some feedback for the thread regarding the new iFi iDSD Nano BL (with MQA support)

 

According to the new errata on the iFi Nano BL firmware download page:

 

 

If I'm reading this right, all PCM is upsampled to DXD internally, and the sample rate indicator will only now glow white for all PCM.  Seems like the product manager needs to have a discussion with the firmware developers about the usefulness of that light.  I was under the impression that all iFi DACs upsampled PCM internally (for the filters), but still managed to have a useful indicator for the input sample rate.  Some may see this as a nit, ok.  It's different than the other iFi DACs.

 

MQA works with both the Tidal app and Audirvana, but I find that after switching to MQA from PCM, it's often necessary to restart MQA playback (with the "start from the beginning" button) for any audio to come out of the DAC (hopefully this will improve with better firmware).  Sometimes MQA decoding doesn't kick in right (the DAC plays undecoded MQA with a white light) and the "start from the beginning" trick works here and turns the light magenta.

 

Having spent some time to reacquaint myself with the current MQA landscape, I have to say that "vaporware" is an apt descriptor.  As far as I can tell, the only way to get any significant MQA content in the U.S. is to use Tidal (I am a HiFi subscriber) and use the Tidal desktop app.  I was stunned to discover that after the long delayed AQ Dragonfly MQA-enabled firmware was released, there is still no way to play Tidal MQA on the mobile app.

 

MQA will ultimately be at the mercy of software/firmware developers to achieve any real market penetration.  The long absence of a mobile solution is rather glaring IMHO.  The Tidal Desktop App is underwhelming.  Still no way to search for MQA content. O.o

 

Samuel,

 

I am trying to get an upgraded license to Amarra Luxe so I can do MQA playback that way.  I am also still setting up a NAS drive for my PS Audio Directstream Network Bridge.  Hopefully that will be ready by Christmas.  Glad to hear Audirvana is there already.

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11 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

 

Was that the actual master file?  What was the resolution and source?

 

Was it "better" enough to stop all future innovation in filtering and for the world to pay MQA a royalty for every transaction using this one piece of tech .... for all time?

 

The sources for the LA Show were 24/88 and 24/96 files of some (mostly 2/4-track) recordings Peter McGrath did of various classical orchestras and ensembles.  I confirmed with Wilson Audio (was just there for a factory tour) where Peter works that the files played were the raw hirez files and the MQA-encoded files.  Volume was level matched at the demo.  Equipment was a T+A integrated amplifier driving Wilson Audio Alexx speakers.  MQA source was the top of the line Meridian Audio cd player and dac.  Equipment was set up by Sunil Merchant, a friend of mine, who has a popular dealership in Covina.  "Sunny" also confirmed to me there was no "monkey business" done on the demo.

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25 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

Samuel,

 

I am trying to get an upgraded license to Amarra Luxe so I can do MQA playback that way.  I am also still setting up a NAS drive for my PS Audio Directstream Network Bridge.  Hopefully that will be ready by Christmas.  Glad to hear Audirvana is there already.

 

Hi Lee

 

While I'm quite skeptical of MQA, I'm doing my best to answer the "but what does it sound like?" question.  Setting aside all the well discussed anti-consumer and dubious technical aspects, I'm most perplexed about how much MQA needs Tidal to be successful.  I have been a Tidal subscriber since before the Jay Z acquisition.  When I use Roon, Tidal is pretty good, but not quite awesome.  Their CDN has issues from time to time (this is seen in Roon as "this title is currently unavailable" that eventually clears).  But I'm at a complete loss why there isn't a straight forward way to see all the MQA titles there.  I'm well aware of the spread sheets that private enthusiasts are keeping, and I've used them to discover new MQA content.  But any audiophile product that requires me to run Excel or Google Docs to use is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

 

Like many/most computer-centric audiophiles, I have way more software than I need to listen to music.  Audirvana, Roon, HQPlayer, JRiver, Foobar, and others I probably forgot.  When/if Roon gets MQA support, I might settle down to just that (and HQPlayer for my DSD DACs).  But even as we get close to the end of 2017, MQA is still something like vaporware.  Drawing on my recollection of the HDCD rollout from last decade (I know that MQA and HDCD are vastly different from a technical and consumer standpoint), MQA is very far behind the curve at this point.

 

PS: Regarding NAS, I'm a big fan of FreeNAS.  While I concede it's more expensive than Synology, I think it's worth the extra money.  Lots of flexibility there that just doesn't exist in Synology.

 

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39 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

Brian,

 

I think you have to evaluate the sonic merits and business elements separately.  It is possible that MQA sounds better and the business elements are not good in terms of licensing, etc.  It is possible the sonic merits are good and there are benefits to the business aspects.  It is possible that none of it is good.  There is, unfortunately no objective way to score the business pluses and minuses.  Everyone will have an opinion.

 

From a business standpoint, it might even be a trade-off.  For instance, MQA may need licensing fees to enforce standards but those standards may be beneficial.  Or it could be an evil DRM scheme too.  I don't have enough data to have an informed opinion yet.

 

 

You really need to take off the Rose Coloured Glasses. Seriously.

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26 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

The sources for the LA Show were 24/88 and 24/96 files of some (mostly 2/4-track) recordings Peter McGrath did of various classical orchestras and ensembles.  I confirmed with Wilson Audio (was just there for a factory tour) where Peter works that the files played were the raw hirez files and the MQA-encoded files.  Volume was level matched at the demo.  Equipment was a T+A integrated amplifier driving Wilson Audio Alexx speakers.  MQA source was the top of the line Meridian Audio cd player and dac.  Equipment was set up by Sunil Merchant, a friend of mine, who has a popular dealership in Covina.  "Sunny" also confirmed to me there was no "monkey business" done on the demo.

So everyone at the demo had a financial stake in a positive outcome, and that does not give you pause?

It is really hard to take you seriously at this point. 

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On topic, I still don’t understand what problem MQA is trying to solve. 

 

As a streaming services user, I can count on my two hands the number of times I was actually continuously streaming something on the go. I almost always download what I want to listen to offline and take it with me to go. There are no bandwidth savings I can think of for my uses.

 

if we are talking offline file size savings, the DAP I just ordered lets me take 464GB on the go. That’s more than my entire music library! Storage is only getting cheaper, so I see no benefits there either.

 

as for the sound quality argument, I am on the fence about that and will make a decision once I compare the 2L files back to back on the Onkyo.

 

The only problem I see MQA actually solve is helping some executives figure out how to afford their next yacht or Porsche.

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28 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

They certainly have a lot of same elements. Need of both ends to pay licenses for the closed technology, degraded performance without decoder, encoded content hiding in LSBs of "legacy/compatibility stream". If the single company goes extinct, the technology becomes inaccessible without reverse-engineering effort.

 

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always thought HDCDs offered redbook quality on standard players and "enhanced" quality on HDCD players. I don't believe there is a version of degraded quality, but I could be wrong.

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19 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

What problem is MQA trying to solve? That is easy..to keep Meridian from going into receivership. They have bled out roughly 30+ million pounds since 1977.  Last ditch, desperate effort to keep the doors open.

That's an interesting spin on it. MQA ltd has all the intellectual property rather than Meridian.

 

Are you saying the money is being funneled back to the major shareholder of MQA and Meridian to keep Meridian alive, rather than just letting Meridian die and keep MQA profits in the long run?

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45 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Hi Lee

 

While I'm quite skeptical of MQA, I'm doing my best to answer the "but what does it sound like?" question.  Setting aside all the well discussed anti-consumer and dubious technical aspects, I'm most perplexed about how much MQA needs Tidal to be successful.  I have been a Tidal subscriber since before the Jay Z acquisition.  When I use Roon, Tidal is pretty good, but not quite awesome.  Their CDN has issues from time to time (this is seen in Roon as "this title is currently unavailable" that eventually clears).  But I'm at a complete loss why there isn't a straight forward way to see all the MQA titles there.  I'm well aware of the spread sheets that private enthusiasts are keeping, and I've used them to discover new MQA content.  But any audiophile product that requires me to run Excel or Google Docs to use is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

 

Like many/most computer-centric audiophiles, I have way more software than I need to listen to music.  Audirvana, Roon, HQPlayer, JRiver, Foobar, and others I probably forgot.  When/if Roon gets MQA support, I might settle down to just that (and HQPlayer for my DSD DACs).  But even as we get close to the end of 2017, MQA is still something like vaporware.  Drawing on my recollection of the HDCD rollout from last decade (I know that MQA and HDCD are vastly different from a technical and consumer standpoint), MQA is very far behind the curve at this point.

 

PS: Regarding NAS, I'm a big fan of FreeNAS.  While I concede it's more expensive than Synology, I think it's worth the extra money.  Lots of flexibility there that just doesn't exist in Synology.

 

 

Good info.  I will look into FreeNAS.

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39 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I think it is not too hard to score business effect on consumers, at least some of the minuses:

- Severely restricts legal use of the purchased content

- No assurance about long-term usability of the technology

- Licensing costs will be paid by the consumer in the end

- Gives a single entity broad (end-to-end) point of control

 

Standard FLAC doesn't have any of these minuses.

 

Fair points but I think FLAC is not a great analogy as it does not include a process for improving such as the apodizing filters.

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3 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I do not want to see any manufacturer go into receivership, as the jobs lost will be predominantly those people not in control.

Meridian equipment is of high quality - but some design decisions do seem odd - i have read that they used tantalum capacitors on the output stage path in one product.

MQA represents a pure greed approach to a new technological development and deployment. The less than "accurate" statements regarding the technology details, have not helped.

Regards,

Shadders.

Bob Stuart is a disaster as businessman. His decisions over the past 40 years would have bankrupted any company numerous times.

 

IN FACT, with out the safety net of his wife's family fortune..they pumped millions into Meridian to keep it afloat, he would have been out of business.

 

The gear had to many quirks and they went against the grain at every turn.

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's an interesting spin on it. MQA ltd has all the intellectual property rather than Meridian.

 

Are you saying the money is being funneled back to the major shareholder of MQA and Meridian to keep Meridian alive, rather than just letting Meridian die and keep MQA profits in the long run?

Who founded MQA? Who is on the board? Who are the shareholders?

 

I am not making any claims about where cash is going or not.

 

What I AM saying is that MQA is/was a last desperate attempt to keep a failed business alive.

 

 

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