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MQA is Vaporware


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Plus, comparing the original non-MQA versions to the decoded MQA versions, one can conclude that it is lossy and really obviously not the original. Even more, without decoder there's quite severe quality degradation.

I don't like use of the term "lossy" in the discussion because it is not the same as "severe quality degradation" but people think it is.

 

"Lossy" just means you can't mathematically recover the original, and that is true of the majority of upsampling/filtering algorithms and modulators used in software players such as HQPlayer. I would guess you would consider some of your "lossy" upsampling/filtering algorithms to be sonically your best ones.

 

"Quality degradation" is of course a different ballgame, and use of those sorts of words I don't mind at all, because everyone is absolutely clear about what it means.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Mainstream America (Joe Six Pack) has shown they will not accept any Sony promoted musical format.

 

 

I hear there was once a thing called a Walkman that was pretty popular. (Sony didn't invent the cassette format - that was Philips - but it certainly "promoted" it via the Walkman.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Legal downloads took off after DRM was abandonned, and whether they are MP3, CD quality or studio quality doesn't make a difference in terms of "giving away crown jewels", since the main loss of income comes from people illegally sharing MP3s, which is still the dominant format. It just makes a difference for the tiny, economically irrelevant fraction of audiophiles.

 

 

Yes, remember when the music industry for years would not release any music in mp3 format because of "piracy"? When iTunes' store came out, legal sales of digital downloads boomed, and CD sales suffered substantially. So it wasn't piracy at all, just legal consumer demand for a convenient format that didn't force exorbitant payment for an entire album to get the one song of a dozen you actually liked.

 

So what is the industry doing with MQA? Offering yet another new format at substantial entry cost, as yet inconvenient (i.e., difficult to find songs you want in the format), and not providing the CD-or-better-quality digital originals due to overblown piracy fears. History repeats itself.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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MQA can easily be turned into full-blown DRM. Here's how:

1. Make a subtle change to the format, creating MQAv2.

2. Make decoders supporting v2 verify your rights to play the content online.

2a. Apply online verification also to v1 content.

 

Sure, you can keep your old DAC and play your old v1 music, but any new purchases will need a new DAC or a firmware update. If I were Mr. Stuart, I'd have this planned from the start. Nothing they've said so far contradicts the existence of such a plan.

 

Have to have something people want before making it difficult to get becomes lucrative.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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That's why a first phase without strict controls while gaining acceptance makes sense. People are wary of DRM, and they know it.

 

I think it is the "gaining acceptance" phase where things may prove to be a bit problematic. ;)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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That's mathematically impossible. Don't trust anything that snake says.

 

Perhaps the key is in the phrase "*apparent* bit depth"?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Neither, apparently, do Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard of Schiit Audio!

 

It's not the licensing (at least from what they say) but limited content availability that Jason and Mike have pointed to, as they have with DSD.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Well, of course he's right - MP3 and MQA, both, are PCM, as well, as are WMA, AAC, ALAC, FLAC, etc.

 

But I see your point - I'd not seen that specific claim, and I agree they are trying to minimize the difference between full-resolution, lossless, PCM (e.g., WAV, AIFF, ALAC, FLAC) and compressed / folded, somewhat lossy PCM (MQA).

 

As I've noted before, it's not the "lossy" aspect that should worry anyone. Our favorite players and conversion software are usually "lossy" as well, which simply means what comes out can't mathematically be restored to the original. Nor is it even necessarily the "black box" nature of the lossy filtering, as few of the developers of the players and converters we use reveal how their filters are constructed.

 

There are only two things we should be worried about: The *quality* of the filtering, and the possibility, quite remote at this point (but still worth watching for), that MQA would crowd other formats out of the market.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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No record company will take the risk to lose money by only betting on one closed format (DRM'd or not) that the public might or might not adapt.

 

You mean like CDs? ;)

The exact same thing happened in the IT industry where software companies used to develop in their own proprietary languages, which prevented easy communication between different platforms. Nowadays every large supplier offers open standards for communication with solutions from other brands. Why? Because their customers forced it upon them. And it also gave software suppliers possibilities to further expand their markets.

 

It has taken decades for some of the most widely used software in the world, web browsers, to operate similarly enough that we fairly seldom experience sites that will work with one browser but not another. That was a common occurrence. And there is still a necessity for different versions of software designed to be used with browsers (plugins vs. ActiveX, or whatever they've both evolved into). And there are plenty of other examples, e.g., Java vs. .Net.

 

We came *this close* to having a Balkanized, closed Web, instead of the WWW we've got. I happened to work in an office in the early '90s where the folks next door (dozens of them) were setting up the billing software with which Microsoft was going to charge people for going on the Internet. Then one day Bill decided that wasn't really the way the world was going to work, and he sent a fairly famous letter through the exec levels of the company saying he'd seen the future and the Web wasn't going to be closed off into these little "shopping centers," it was going to be wide open. If Bill hadn't sent that letter, we'd likely still be dealing with the potentially crippling effects of an MS decision to charge for using the Internet, and this site, among many others, would almost certainly not exist. (A week later, all the dozens of folks next door and their office furniture were gone, as if they'd never existed.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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This is very very important (and this history is FACT - I can't speak to the specifics of Jud's personal experience, but I can speak to the wider situation vis-a-vis standards/formats that the WWW runs on - I was deep in server room in corporate IT at the time), and is directly related to what fung0 says:

 

"Of course, the goal should be to balance the needs of creators and consumers. Open standards inherently tend to do that - but the corporate worldview isn't about balance, it's about control. The tech press has accepted the industry perspective so completely that the most obvious criticism of MQA never comes up.Many people want to excuse MQA by comparing it to a new product, which consumers can buy or not buy. But MQA isn't a product. It's trying to be a standard"

 

Yes, but...

 

Let's deal with realities, not fears. Of course MQA wants to conquer the world. Lots of companies do. Vanishingly few are successful. Let's do what we can by voting with our dollars, emails, and other forms of communication at our disposal, and by providing *credible* information. Otherwise the people you want to communicate with will dismiss you as hysterical.

 

Remember, Bill sent that letter after figuring out he could make *more* money from an open Web. The companies involved here would surely be responsive to a credible explanation that a more open market for music would be *more* profitable.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Or he tries really hard to appear to walk that line. He's been just a little too dismissive of people's concerns and simultaneously a little too trusting of the official line from Stuart and his PR department.

 

I think he believes what he says; that he has liked what he's heard of MQA; but he is ready to take in any other good information he can find (such as, for example, your test results).

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Because sampling any recording at a higher rate makes it sound better. The digital filters applied can be much more benign with even 24/88.2 and 24/96, and this leads to much less digital artifacts (and hence less "digital" sounding in the old school use of that term). I am not advocating for MQA/streaming, but for real hi res when available.

That may be the thing that makes the least sense to me about MQA. All the stuff they are doing at fairly low sampling/upsampling rates seems like a solution to a last-decade problem. Lossless compression of 24/96 might resolve problems of file size as well as or better than what they're doing, and MQA could apply any filter they cared to. They might not be able to charge quite as much for it, but that might actually result in higher volume of uptake by industry and consumers.

 

Oh well, what do I know?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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To answer your question about CDs going away the simple answer is no. There are 6.2 million CDs for sale on Amazon today. Indie (see username) bands sell CDs directly to their fans at shows. Too important of a revenue stream to go away without a replacement format. Mainstream music lovers are still buying enough CDs that Target and Walmart have power with record companies to dictate pricing. You have to move a lot units to have this power.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/business/media/music-sales-remain-steady-but-lucrative-cd-sales-decline.html

 

 

2015 figures (I think 2016 figures should be in by around March of this year), $US:

 

 

Music industry total: Just over $7 billion.

 

Streaming (services including Tidal, free streaming [including ad-supported], Internet radio): $2.4 billion

 

Digital downloads: Just under $2.4 billion

 

CDs: $1.5 billion

 

Vinyl: $416 million

 

YouTube and similar sites: $385 million

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Germany in 2014:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32331[/ATTACH]

 

 

UK in 2015 (CD sales in the UK more resilient than downloads):

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32332[/ATTACH]

 

 

Overview 2014:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32335[/ATTACH]

 

Yep, important point - figures I cited were USA only.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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???

Isn't that illegal?

 

Trading physical CDs for each other, buying them, or selling them used is perfectly legal. Ripping then selling is questionable in the US and AIUI illegal in the U.K. Selling rips is illegal in the US.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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HEY Ralf11- isn't that a restaurant in syracuse's armory square? all home made pasta

 

I think it's a great idea to talk about pasta - just as relevant and a heck of a lot more pleasant than the past couple of pages.

 

You like the thin or thick spaghetti noodles?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Jud- very thin like angel hair-ever been to syracuse? another great restaurant is the DINOSAUR bbq-branches in rochester ny newark nj brooklyn and harlem always shown during su basketball games.

are you in bethlehem pa? my son and his st lawrence buds play golf at the old bethlehem steel golf club i guess it's only a short drive for them from nyc

aren't you getting a little exhausted from all this MQA banter? I really like it tho and have made a playlist of all the DEAD albums now available plus the tribute to Jerry sounds really good without a MQA DAC just from the TIDAL desktop

 

No longer live in Bethlehem, but it's where I was born and grew up. Great town. Holds a huge music festival every summer. For more traditional stuff, the Bach Choir (America's oldest) at least used to give a week of concerts every year at Packer Chapel on the Lehigh campus, culminating with the B Minor Mass. In good weather the church doors were opened so people could gather on the lawns outside and listen for free. I don't know if this still goes on.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Bucatini is the king of the spaghetti-like noodles

 

I used to like lasagna too - not so much now

 

 

Big +1 for bucatini - something with substance.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Supposing truth is a woman—what then? Are there not grounds for the suspicion that all philosophers, insofar as they were dogmatists, have been very inexpert about women? that the gruesome seriousness, the clumsy obtrusiveness with which they have usually approached truth so far have been awkward and very improper methods for winning a woman's heart?

That's really a lovely train of thought. Haven't gotten into Nietzche, but perhaps I should.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question, but I'm a Newbie. Is this the Breitbart site I've been reading so much about?

 

Thanks, that was a good laugh.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Ya, all the people howling at the moon drove JRiver off the site.

 

That's true. There are self-appointed experts on both "sides" of most of these long term issues who are quite wrong, but never stop commenting (often raising their pet topics in unrelated threads) long enough to sit back, read, and learn something from people who may actually know more, or even if not "more," something other than we know already. That's the biggest reason I'm here, and I've been paid back a hundred-fold.

 

Please (and this is for everyone) - don't make that harder.

 

I spoke with Chris C. a while ago and told him what I'd love to see on the site is experts in various audio fields sharing their knowledge. But even while suggesting this, I said that I wrestled with whether to allow comments and questions. Those could certainly help expand the value of experts' posts by making them more relevant to individual circumstances. But I wasn't certain we could be trusted not to turn into a howling, argumentative rabble. I was sad to have that thought, but I had it. Hope I was wrong.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Many of the people who post regularly on this forum know more about computer audio that your "industry experts". A good example is the embarrassing series of articles that TAS has published coauthored by an "industry expert" who calls himself The HiFi Doctor. (He has a PhD in Physiology and Molecular Oncology.)

 

This reminds me a little of the Dr. Carl Sagan quote: "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

 

Yep, some folks here who like to *disagree with* (as opposed to harangue - there's a difference) so-called "experts" are experts themselves. And some are bozos.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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If you're not sure which you are, it's the latter.

 

Bozo.jpg

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]32460[/ATTACH]

 

I really should have taken this as my avatar, but then I'd have to figure out where to do that and where the jpg I use now is if I ever wanted to go back to it, and frankly I'm way too lazy.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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