MQA is Vaporware

[vmartell22]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

It's like someone saying I can get single origin coffee cut with chicory root at no extra cost!   

 

I think I found my new signature!  - if I do it I will properly credit, of course!

 

"Saying MQA is good It's like someone saying I can get single origin coffee cut with chicory root at no extra cost!"

 

kudos

 

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[vmartell22]

9 minutes ago, crenca said:

Ha!  You used the word "elegant". This in no way helps your cause to convince us that you are not an anti-consumer shill for the industry.

 

 

That is curious indeed - "elegant" seems to be the keyword indeed - for whatever reason it seems to be that MQA owners, promoters and backers have agreed on that. And it may be - it may be an elegant solution to the problem of introducing DRM back , many years after the worst offenders did away with it. But that's not an elegant I want.

 

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[vmartell22]

1 hour ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

My guess is that if MQA is in their hardware and streaming services, they may not care about any DRM if they get the music on their phones with a big library for a reasonable price.

 

Yes, but, isn't that true DRM or not? It would be better for the general public if the prevalent platform would not be DRM infected.

 

That said,  my fear is not streaming - I don't do streaming other than in the car, where I am yelling at the kids, swearing at other drivers and barely controlling the road rage... so do not care about SQ, etc... just want to tame the beast...

SQ is the last of my concerns and as log as the file plays do not care how. My guess is that this is where most people live.

 

BUT 

 

The stated intent is MQA everywhere. Now I feel compelled to fight it with all my heart - In fact I do believe that discussing the the technical minutia is pointless - this is an idea that is rotten in principle. A transparent attempt to take away consumer rights. Whether it sounds good, OK or  bad is immaterial . The  intent is rotten at the core.  No slight intended against lee - I enjoy his site even if I disagree with the non-stop MQA coverage.  I wish there wasn't such thing as this blatant anti-consumer effort.  But, that said, great site, lee.

 

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[vmartell22]

8 hours ago, semente said:

 

You should take a mindfulness course. Streamed in MQA.

HAHA

 

It is dangerous, but no different that any parent - nothing but pain the faces of the dropoff/pickup line at school!

 

 

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[vmartell22]

13 minutes ago, firedog said:

No, this shows your naive lack of understanding of what many modern corporations do. They often operate in markets with little real competition and are very happy to make money based on marketing designed to fool consumers and based on the fact that consumers often have neither the skills nor ability to find out what is really going on. They thrive on fake value instead of actual value. 

 

The drug industry and the industrial food giants are good examples of this. They often make their money by sophisticated hoodwinking of consumers and an ability to control pricing and influence markets. Do some reading about how food giants intentionally make food addictive and then tell me this isn't true. 

 

The same thing is going on with the MQA, the record labels and streaming. What is necessary here is real investigative journalism, the kind where actual analysis is done and the industry marketing isn't accepted at face value. Unfortunately, other than on forums like this one, it doesn't seem to be happening.

 

 

 

Exactly! Firedog  you rock.

 

I mentioned on another thread but I think is worth repeating here. (apologies if disagree)

 

The other day I realized I was listening to a CD I bought used about 10 years ago.  I bet you the labels hate that.  And they want to do something about it - better for them to have you paying for life for the music - and losing access if you don't.  They rather I paid every month for that music. They know that physical media in addition to the problems of inventory, distribution, etc is also affected by that pesky first sale principle - once I bought it, I don't have to pay for it again.  Unfortunately millennials are going along - yes, there is the vinyl revival, but however impressive is in terms of growth, in absolute terms is not that significant; streaming is where is at.

 

 

Gosh - as a business they have the right to do whatever they want. We also have the right to reject their offerings.  Specially if the deal is stacked against the consumer. They also don't have the right to treat us like we are stupid.  I would respect them more if they just said, well this is MQA, this is what is gonna be.  But to be subjected to the bs that is better for me and that it  is technologically superior than/to current non DRM, open offerings, is insulting.

 

Re: audio press - well  that is something I have been chewing for a while. It all goes back to Michael Lavorgna's "Go Fuck Yourself" incident. And it connects to John Atkinson's extreme combativeness on the comments sections over at Stereophile.  I have come to the conclusion  - and this is my opinion, I could be wrong, that it doesn't feel like journalism. It feels like  blogging, punditry. But I don't see the attitude of not taking everything at face value nor the tone of neutrality that journalism implies - yes I say tone, because even if there is bias, journalistic institutions adopt a tone of neutrality.  Not to mention that they do not attempt to stay above it all (hence the "GFY" Lavorgna situation - or the furious censoring of comments at Sterophile).  What happened is that for whatever reason they decided they like MQA and by gosh, let's try to put it everywhere.

 

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[vmartell22]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - Please try to cool it with the personal / work related stuff. I know Lee brought up his employer, but to be honest, posting about someone's comments and work hours etc... is a bit more than I'd like to have on CA. It's a slippery slope. There are some crazies out here once in a while that may try to call someone's place of employment (it's happened before) and it gets ugly.

 

 

Holy crap that is crazy - to me this is fun  - even the flames ! Never said it, but  this is  a wonderful site - my day would be worse without it - let's try to keep it sane!

 

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[vmartell22]

9 hours ago, knickerhawk said:

 

It's not just the big-bad-corporate labels that "hate" it. It's also the brave little independent labels and, of course, the musicians, but somehow it just doesn't feel so satisfying when you have to lump the good guys in with the greedy corporate hogs...

 

Well - I am all for the small labels - the thing is this  - the small labels know the environment, laws etc and just deal with it - they understand there are rights the consumer just has - I have tons and tons of CPO, Hyperion, DaCapo, etc CDs and SACDs. The small labels don't actively work to strip you of your consumer rights like the major  labels do - and they use tools like the MQA abomination to do so.

 

9 hours ago, knickerhawk said:

 

Well, I'm no millennial (far from it, alas), but I'm happily going along with the new model. For me, the freedom and flexibility of virtually unlimited access to whatever music tickles my fancy at the moment is incredibly liberating and motivating. I love it and consider the $20 per month price tag for CD level playback (and beyond that with MQA as my happy ears tell me) to be an incredible bargain. Maybe...just maybe...those clever millennials are on to something.

 

Sure - of course  to me it feels like paying for the same music over and over. That said the problem is not streaming itself - is that fact that the majors, again are actively working towards a Brave New World, a 1984 era, an era of Fahrenheit MQA , with nothing but streaming - that I will fear and will educate as many people as I can to avoid it.

 

9 hours ago, knickerhawk said:

The fundamental problem here is that it's not simply the payment model that's changed from ownership to rental. If that's all that it were about, I'd be screaming bloody murder too. But it's not - it's what you're receiving in exchange for the payment that has radically changed. In the purchase model, what you pay for allows you to listen to the same piece of music over and over and over...forever. It's very narrow/specific in terms of content but virtually unlimited in terms of access. The streaming/rental model is flipped: very broad in terms of content and very temporary in terms of access. Of course, this distinction is obvious to everyone, but it is often conveniently ignored by my fellow old-farts here with statements about having to pay for music "again" (often attended by an insinuation of corporate greed from extracting payment for the same thing over and over...)

 

That makes sense - and you are right - we old farts are more focused  on what we want - so yeah, for some people narrow would work  or for some (millennials, I assume) wide will work. That is fine.  But again, those greedy majors want  nothing but streaming - that have stated so for the reasons we all fear.

 

9 hours ago, knickerhawk said:

 

Your statement implies that the "the consumer" is monolithic. We're not, and what's beneficial to or highly valued by one class of consumer may very well conflict with what other consumers value. Specifically, I would note that the class of "consumers" that hang out in threads like this one on CA are likely to have significantly different priorities and preferences than those that don't. When content providers respond by favoring one consumer group over another out of economic self-interest, it's pretty inevitable that the class of consumers that lost out is going to perceive that loss in terms that villainize the greedy corporate bastards and throw up their arms in utter disgust that their naive fellow consumers have been manipulated and misled. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism!

 

No - the wonderful world of capitalism which I support very much is free competition - these greedy majors are a cartel, colluding to strip away our consumer rights - and those are like freedom of speech - it doesn't matter whether you use it, want it, exercise it or ignore it. We must have it.  Same with those rights that we won from Apple etc. thru the marvels of the free market system. Doesn't matter if you don't want them, use them, appreciate them. It is better for the consumer and even society to have them. Period.

 

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[vmartell22]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Does anyone know the relation of Roon's Sarah Stuart to MQA's Bob Stuart?

 

"Sarah works on music editorial and research as part of Roon’s Music Team." https://blog.roonlabs.com/author/sarah/

 

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sarah-stuart-7889b1150

 

 

This is more a comment than an answer. I have a vague recollection that Roon was spun off from Meridian or something like that (and ashamed that is vague, because I think it was last week that I read something like that, but well, memory...), so it makes sense that it might be a relationship, even if Stuart is a fairly common name... It would be interesting to confirm... or if not interesting, at least it would explain things over at the Roon forum.

 

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[vmartell22]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

https://www.residentialsystems.com/news/former-sooloos-team-launches-roon-labs

 

Thanks - I guess I could have googled that - again, thanks for taking the time.  I tend to see the forums as conversation, and in a conversation you go with what you have - :D thanks!

Anyways, I see this:

 

"Meridian Audio agreed to transfer the company’s software applications business to the newly established entity."

 

So from the looks of it was not the employees striking out on their own. like the AKG headphone employees in Austria  - it was a spin off, even if the announcement is not clear about it... Again, that I explain things over at the Roon forum - think I am one comment away from being banned ! :D - ah well, will thread lightly...

 

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[vmartell22]

2 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

She shares a last name with Mr. Stuart.  I'm a little surprised you seem to almost be asking the forum for help doxing someone.  Bad form for the forum owner, and potentially more ammo for MQA to throw hate at this forum.  I'm perplexed, to say the least.

 

 

 

1.- The stuff posted  is from Linkedin - public info. If you can google the answer, well, public info. I think Chris was 100% appropriate in his query.  

 

2.- To me, Chris' question was also VERY useful - it reminded me of the ties between Meridian and Roon and help me with my epiphany of why I am always pummeled by moderators when I point out the crap MQA is trying to pull at the Roon forum...

 

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[vmartell22]

1 hour ago, KeenObserver said:

 

WOW!

Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

 

Indeed - a good sign. But to me, the light at the end of the tunnel will be when Spotify Hifi comes out.  IF it is not MQA - that's all she wrote for MQA. Here's hoping

 

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[vmartell22]

14 hours ago, LarryMagoo said:

 I am a regular participant on many Roon's forum topics and really enjoy the camaraderie I've experienced there.   Sorry if your experience has not been otherwise excellent.   

 

That is the thing -  if you agree with the official line, in this case re: MQA, but is also true of many other topics, yes, it seems friendly. But hit anything that the moderators are a fan of, MQA yes, but also specific products, and you will be jumped on, moderators leading the charge. They are not neutral, nor do they really behave professionally; they are  just simple opinionated users at heart.

 

It is true, Roon does what it advertises, which is what I wanted - at least the part that allows you to easily setup remotes and the such - that is the reason I became a subscriber. Unfortunately I did not pay attention to the MQA issue - part of it is because of their strategy. While not completely shutting down MQA criticism, they do throttle it, so it doesn't bubble up. So if you don't get too deep in the forums, you probably won't see it.

 

I did not see that until I had invested in some infrastructure to implement the Roon system. And it took me a little bit longer to find out about how they are connected. If I had known, there is a great probability I would have stayed a JRiver user.

 

It does look like the forum is their only means of providing customer support - not sure if it's limited only to subscribers.  It feels like it is  - I know of no fellow MQA skeptics being banned. That makes sense if the forum is only for subscribers.  They do not want to alienate a paying customer, even if critical of the company - at  least I hope that is the case, I am not 100% sure.

 

But if so, therein lies the opportunity to keep hammering the point.  Every time an MQA defender points out how fantastic it sounds,  every time I respond  the defender is missing the point. This is not about sound.

 

This is about the consumer and its rights.

 

And plan to keep doing it. Every freaking time.

 

v

 

[vmartell22]

2 minutes ago, Currawong said:

 

 

From my interactions on the Roon forums, there is no problem posting negatively about MQA. The people who get jumped on are the ones who post personal attacks, even veiled ones. I've not been moderated at all on their forums, so if you are, maybe it is because what you post gets flagged as breaking the rules?

 

Every one breaks the rules - it is obvious from the selective enforcement what the moderators line is.  And like I said, is not that they do not allow negative posts and/or threads. They throttle them, so get shoved from the trending topics. Plus the MQA fans liberally use the very permissive flagging system to censor posts. And yes I know, flagging does not completely hide posts but still, very easy to censor. Check for the MQA vs PCM thread. Once the MQA skeptics started flagging stuff, the thread was closed.

 

Again, is not that they completely disallow criticism. They do seem to want to give the illusion of freedom. It is that the criticism gets push down and out by moderators and the pro MQA crowd, which, to be fair, seems to be a majority... 

 

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[vmartell22]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

ALAC as per the rumours !

 

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[vmartell22]

2 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

You don't have freedom on any forum. You're always at the will of the owner. That being said, the posts I saw as flagged were fairly pointless crap. I haven't seen a well-written post be flagged and hidden, especially if it was on-topic.

 

It's not a battle between people who like MQA and those that don't. If you treat it like one, then discussion will go that way, and it's clearly not something not wanted there.   

 

If you discuss ideas, rather than people, and it is on topic, there is no reason for someone to flag your posts. I see too much of people implying less than polite things about people who are positive towards MQA in any way. That kind of thing negates any arguments made. The best way to support pro-MQA arguments is to act abusive towards people who have written about MQA or who like MQA-encoded music. 

 

Anyway, if Apple releases high-res lossless, as it appears to be something they are about to do, TIDAL is finished as a business. It'll be relegated to serving a tiny minority of listeners. For Roon customers, Deezer will become available, and MQA will slowly fade out, as it has been at audio shows pre-COVID.

 

1.- True - to be fair, the forums are the private property of the owner -  the owner sets the rules. I always respectfully point out what I disagree with. I am very often careful to indicate that the owners have the right to decided what kind of forum they want.  I also respectfully ask, well, just have them be clear. If they don't want MQA polemics, it should make it a rule explicitly.   

 

2.- Disagree on what gets flagged.  It  looks like you are on the Roon forum. You know then, that the flagging is done by  users and in general ( again, I have to generalize - after all we are all talking about a trend ) the MQA believers are tremendously petty  - they use the flagging system as if it was a "disagree" button. 

 

3.- I also have to disagree, and it comes back to rules, focus of the forum, the image they want to project and their selective enforcement of the rules. I will say plainly, the less polite and abusive people on the forum, at least on those discussions are the MQA believers. And they get lots of tolerance. Or used to. I haven't read any MQA discussions there lately. I think they are still ongoing, but as I mentioned before, they get push down to the the bottom of the topic highlights. Don't have the energy to look for them anymore! :D

 

4.- Again, I know is my fault, but would love to get away from the Roon forums topic. I do agree - while is possible for ALAC files to contain MQA, I don't think that it will be the case. This is going as predicted.

 

And of course, this is not petty ill-will towards people. It is unfortunate that, if this affects Tidal and Meridian, it might also have an effect on real people as opposed to that entity known as "the corporation".

 

Yet - free markets are like that. Public opinion is a market force; we are free to disagree and free to campaign etc. 

 

v

 

[vmartell22]

Regarding all the comments about Apple - indeed,  very often I don't like what they do, I don't like what they have turned into and definitely avoided them for  a long time. Up until recently, there was no Apple or Windows at Vic's office - that changed recently though; my kid went to college and I inherited the Mac Book Pro. That was actually the main catalyst to try Roon. But I digress.

 

It's obvious that Apple is no white hat cowboy to the rescue. BUT there are difference between that and the MQA effort.

 

Main is that Apple aims to establish not standards BUT market domination - most of the people I know will use ALAC not  because is being forced, but because Apple's size, market and mind share. They want to use Apple, regardless of disadvantages or doing so, or the advantages of not doing so. 

 

BUT - you can reject it.  Like I said, I did not use Apple. Even with its market dominance, I only started using their products because I wanted to.

 

They don't want the backlash that MQA generated. They also have no need to risk it. I hate it that they removed the audio jack and that everyone is following.   So big they don't care. All that obviously very NOT desirable.

 

The problem with MQA was that is a consumer rights eroding effort through the means of industry adoption. BAD. Then you add all the claims, the lossy issue and so on. In fact, I thought I did not care about MQA until I new of the existence of MQA CDs. That made me go, wow! they are also going after physical media. THEY WANT TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. That will not do.

 

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[vmartell22]

 

Please correct me if I am wrong - I have been doing net things for a while - I have forgotten whatever little DSP I had in me.

 

I have gotten in my head that the genius of @GoldenOne 's video is that it got all the MQA - sorry mQA :D proponents to publicly  admit that it behaves exactly like a lossy scheme. Including Bob Stuart himself.

 

From there, well, if it looks like a duck... 

 

I maybe inferring to much - but  just wanted to double check I am right - or not! 

 

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[vmartell22]

40 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Well that didn't take long......

 

 

 

Hrm - very disappointing. This should have the thing that united  ASR and AS.  Argument should be  - hey,  both sides of the audiophile thought discussion agree here, mQa is bad news  - even if for different reasons. Doesn't matter.

 

I do have a related question - do moderators have a duty to be impartial?  Well, I understand that the owner of the forum has the right to regulate content she/he wants on the forum - BUT, talking in general, if someone becomes a moderator, is that a reasonable expectation? I guess I kind of answered my question... so it may be dumb in essence... yet... feels wrong what they did...

 

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[vmartell22]

5 hours ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

As Stereophile doesn't publish content from anonymous sources, your question is moot.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

Does that mean you ignore and/or don't try corroborate anonymous tips/information/possible facts OR does it mean that you will always identify your sources?

(sincere, somewhat neutral question)

 

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