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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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38 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Interesting that you had issues since you are using a PC as the NAA.  It should be as easy

LOL.  I've been struggling with bridging since this thread started.  Easy?

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59 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Unitek Y 3463 USB 3.0 dual Ethernet Gigabit adapter with auto hardware bridging

That looks like a 2-port switch.  I don't know if it's accurate to call it auto hardware bridging.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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I was really dismayed to read reports about the fluctuating and increasing prices for the Ultra stack. However, based on what I can see, the price increase is not too great. I paid approx $1235 for what is listed here: https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200-mod-tx-usbultra?variant=40555633420 for $1400. But some of that difference is due to the use of the more modular clock cables with SMB connectors.

 

So yes - a price increase, but not as bad as I thought.

 

Ultimately, it's economics. A company like SOtM may certainly choose to test how much price increase the market can bear, but at some price point, the demand will sag, and the company will need to make some hard choices. We'll see.

 

IMO, the way I did it, where there is exactly one sCLK-EX board in the chain, and all 4 clock taps on the sCLK-EX are used in the chain, has the best SQ and is the most cost-effective.

 

Let's look at it this way. Say you already own an sMS-200, with an LPS-1. What are your options?

 
Option 1: The SOtM Ultra chain
  • sMS-200 mod + tX-USBultra + switch:         $1400
  • LPS-1 to power the tX-USBultra:                     $395
  • Total:                                                               $1795

Option 2: The Uptone ISO-Regen with LPS-1:       $655         bundle price

 

These are a couple of the key options, among many, facing buyers in this space today. I think we are all eagerly awaiting anyone who can compare these two configurations and see whether the ISO-R can approach, or even exceed the Ultra chain, at a fraction of the cost.

 

I've said it before and I'll say again - if anyone is willing to lend me an ISO-R for a few days, I'll be happy to try this in my system and report back my impressions. Most likely, I can also enlist @limniscate into the effort. Since he has an mR, we should also be able to compare a third option: mR+ISO-R. 

 

Going back to what started this post, ultimately buyers (and economics) decide the option that best works for them.

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23 minutes ago, ted_b said:

LOL.  I've been struggling with bridging since this thread started.  Easy?

Sorry Ted!  I guess I am one of the lucky ones!  I think I may stop bridging now that AO supports HQP and Roon server in core mode.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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56 minutes ago, austinpop said:

So yes - a price increase, but not as bad as I thought.

It's not entirely clear, but it looks like you can currently get a 10% discount on that $1400.  That brings the price down to $1260.

 

What I find more of concern is this 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/27617-sotm-sms-200-unveiled-at-munich-hi-end/?page=35#comment-670501

 

I'm going to get out of the game of analyzing SOtM pricing here on CA.  

 

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

was really dismayed to read reports about the fluctuating and increasing prices

I pre-ordered a SMS-200 Ultra without the master clock.   I would need to pay another £200 ($257.90) to add the MC.

 

It would have been a lot cheaper for me to purchase a new SMS-200 and pay the $900 to upgrade to the Ultra with master clock.

 

Their crazy pricing has put me off buying the other items I had planned to complete the Romaz chain.  I could have easily spent another £4K or £5K on their products including the MC when it is released. 

SOtM sMS-200ultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

SOtM tX-USBultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Singxer SU-1 (7v SOtM sCLK-EX, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

W4S DAC2v2 SE (SOtM sCLK-EX silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Mutec REF 10, Bryston BP6, Trinnov Altitude 32, 9 x Bryston 7B³s, B&W 800D3s, B&W HTM1 D3, 2 x Arendal Sub 3,

SOtM dCBL-CAT7 (ISO-CAT6 SE), SOtM eABS-200 installed on all components, JCAT NET Card FEMTO, mRendu, dCS Rossini DAC, Chord Hugo 2, Schitt Yggy, Chord Qutest (ordered for home office), UpTone ISO Regen, 5 x UpTone LPS-1s, 4 x PH SR4s, 5 x UpTone LPS-1.2s

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30 minutes ago, Bamber said:

It would have been a lot cheaper for me to purchase a new SMS-200 and pay the $900 to upgrade to the Ultra with master clock.

 

Their crazy pricing has put me off buying the other items I had planned to complete the Romaz chain.  I could have easily spent another £4K or £5K on their products including the MC when it is released. 

 

I suggest you contact them directly and negotiate what you think is fair. 

 

Just to be clear - no one - not even Roy - has reported on the Ultra chain with SOtM's, or anyone else's, master clock. We just don't know if, or how much better, this will further improve SQ. The $200 MC input option is a choice, for those who want to be ready for this upgrade. 

 

Speaking only for myself, my pockets aren't infinitely deep, and I've already over-spent on the streaming transport portion of my end-to-end chain. The next $$$ I spend should probably go towards other parts of my chain to maintain system balance.

 

I'm sitting out the whole MC upgrade path until others have reported on the improvement, and I can weigh the cost/benefit.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

I've said it before and I'll say again - if anyone is willing to lend me an ISO-R for a few days, I'll be happy to try this in my system and report back my impressions.

I could purchase a ISO-Regen with LPS-1 bundle and have it delivered to your address if Superdad allows that.

 

I could transfer enough funds to you to cover shipping to me in UK once you are finished testing.  That way you could keep it for 3 or 4 weeks.

SOtM sMS-200ultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

SOtM tX-USBultra (12v, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Singxer SU-1 (7v SOtM sCLK-EX, silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

W4S DAC2v2 SE (SOtM sCLK-EX silver internal DC cable, 75Ω external clock input),

Mutec REF 10, Bryston BP6, Trinnov Altitude 32, 9 x Bryston 7B³s, B&W 800D3s, B&W HTM1 D3, 2 x Arendal Sub 3,

SOtM dCBL-CAT7 (ISO-CAT6 SE), SOtM eABS-200 installed on all components, JCAT NET Card FEMTO, mRendu, dCS Rossini DAC, Chord Hugo 2, Schitt Yggy, Chord Qutest (ordered for home office), UpTone ISO Regen, 5 x UpTone LPS-1s, 4 x PH SR4s, 5 x UpTone LPS-1.2s

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2 minutes ago, Bamber said:

I could purchase a ISO-Regen with LPS-1 bundle and have it delivered to your address if Superdad allows that.

 

I could transfer enough funds to you to cover shipping to me in UK once you are finished testing.  That way you could keep it for 3 or 4 weeks.

 

You could... but will you? :D 

 

But seriously - that would be awesome! We can discuss over PM.

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What's the audio advantage of bridging?  From this description I found, it doesn't sound like it'd be important in audio to me, but what do I know ;)

  https://www.techwalla.com/articles/the-advantages-of-a-network-bridge

 

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

.

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12 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

What's the audio advantage of bridging?  From this description I found, it doesn't sound like it'd be important in audio to me, but what do I know ;)

  https://www.techwalla.com/articles/the-advantages-of-a-network-bridge

 

Some people, me included feel that bypassing the switch and having a direct connection to the NAA results in a cleaner sound.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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20 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

What's the audio advantage of bridging?  From this description I found, it doesn't sound like it'd be important in audio to me, but what do I know ;)

  https://www.techwalla.com/articles/the-advantages-of-a-network-bridge

 

Chris

bridging Ethernet connections is the original subject of this now-massively-diverse knowledge thread. It allows one to connect directly to ones renderer rather than go through a switch

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8 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Some people, me included feel that bypassing the switch and having a direct connection to the NAA results in a cleaner sound.

I couldn't agree more. Direct ethernet connection between my PC and sms200 resulted in immediate and very noticable sonic improvements. That's why I am not rushing to get the modded switch. 

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2 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

I couldn't agree more. Direct ethernet connection between my PC and sms200 resulted in immediate and very noticable sonic improvements. That's why I am not rushing to get the modded switch. 

Do you use a PC or Mac?  How do you direct connect to the sms200 if you are using a PC?  Are you running a dhcp server?

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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3 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Do you use a PC or Mac?  How do you direct connect to the sms200 if you are using a PC?  Are you running a dhcp server?

I am using my iMac with Windows 10.

 

The only ethernet port I have on the iMac is used for direct connection to the sms200Ultra (via a 5m Supra CAT8 cable -> Sotm ISO-CAT6 filter -> Sotm CAT6 ethernet cable).

 

The PC is connected to the internet through wifi. All I had to do was to bridge the wifi connection and the ethernet connection (in Network and sharing center, Change adapter settings) and voila.

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18 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

That's why I am not rushing to get the modded switch. 

 

Just to be clear - I use the modded switch in the direct connection (i.e. bridged server) path. So the two - modded switch and direct connection - are not mutually exclusive.

 

Mine looks like this:

 

Cable modem <> Router <> (PCIe Eth) Win 10 Server Bridged (USB Eth) <> modded switch <> modded sMS-200 <> tX-USBultra <> DAC.

 

Hope that's clear.

 

 

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If you are going through a switch how is that "direct" in your mind?  I assumed when we talk direct we really mean nonstop, and assumed the sq advantages are akin to a nonstop flight, i.e. Faster, no changing planes and no risk of schedule conflicts

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4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Cable modem <> Router <> (PCIe Eth) Win 10 Server Bridged (USB Eth) <> modded switch <> modded sMS-200 <> tX-USBultra <> DAC.

Two questions Rajiv...

 

1.  I assume you are running some sort of dhcp server on your win10 pc?  As I understand it the sms200 does not have any settings to allow a fixed ip.

 

2.  Or does your switch have a dhcp server built in?

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Just to be clear - I use the modded switch in the direct connection (i.e. bridged server) path. So the two - modded switch and direct connection - are not mutually exclusive.

 

Mine looks like this:

 

Cable modem <> Router <> (PCIe Eth) Win 10 Server Bridged (USB Eth) <> modded switch <> modded sMS-200 <> tX-USBultra <> DAC.

 

Hope that's clear.

 

 

 

Yes, I understand that, but I would call this connection just bridged (over a switch) as opposed to direct connection with nothing in between the PC and the streamer.

 

Apart from modding a switch, I would need to mod my sms200Ultra and get a separate linear PSU for the switch. So that's probably in the $700-800 zone, and I am not prepared to go that far.

 

Instead I decided to invest in a proper DSP software (Acourate) and a calibration mic, and get the most out of my Roon based system within the constraints of my listening room. 

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2 minutes ago, ted_b said:

If you are going through a switch how is that "direct" in your mind?  I assumed when we talk direct we really mean nonstop, and assumed the sq advantages are akin to a nonstop flight, i.e. Faster, no changing planes and no risk of schedule conflicts

 

Hi Ted,

 

I'd refer you back to Roy's first posts describing the direct connection. The "direct" comes from bridging the server, so the endpoint is isolated from the router, rather than connected to the same switch.

 

Adding the modded switch between the server and the endpoint still maintains that isolation from the router. The modded switch in this path, due to its clock mods, linear regulators, clean LPS (I use the LPS-1) is really acting as an Ethernet reclocker.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Two questions Rajiv...

 

1.  I assume you are running some sort of dhcp server on your win10 pc?  As I understand it the sms200 does not have any settings to allow a fixed ip.

 

2.  Or does your switch have a dhcp server built in?

 

No Tommy - no DHCP server is necessary.

 

When you bridge two (or more) adapters in Windows 10, 2 things happen:

  1. a new "Network Bridge"adapter gets created. Within it's properties, you then assign it a static IP (although dynamic IP also works)
  2. the original adapter objects show as "bridged," and no longer allow you to set IP properties within them.

Under the covers, WIndows is providing a virtual switch (layer 2) between the two adapters. The sMS-200 continues to be in the same subnet as the server, and everything upstream of it in the network.

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Just now, austinpop said:

 

No Tommy - no DHCP server is necessary.

 

When you bridge two (or more) adapters in Windows 10, 2 things happen:

  1. a new "Network Bridge"adapter gets created. Within it's properties, you then assign it a static IP (although dynamic IP also works)
  2. the original adapter objects show as "bridged," and no longer allow you to set IP properties within them.

Under the covers, WIndows is providing a virtual switch (layer 2) between the two adapters. The sMS-200 continues to be in the same subnet as the server, and everything upstream of it in the network.

 

I should add:

  • the sMS-200 still gets its DHCP address from the DHCP server on the subnet - typically running in your router
  • Like many others, to get the network bridging to work successfully in W10, I had to bridge 3 adapters: 
    • PCIe Ethernet
    • USB Ethernet
    • PCIe Wifi, enabled, but not connected to wifi
  • For some reason, the presence of the 3rd (wifi) adapter in the bridge was necessary to get it all to work. Others - many of them - found the same to be necessary.
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14 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

Yes, I understand that, but I would call this connection just bridged (over a switch) as opposed to direct connection with nothing in between the PC and the streamer.

 

Apart from modding a switch, I would need to mod my sms200Ultra and get a separate linear PSU for the switch. So that's probably in the $700-800 zone, and I am not prepared to go that far.

 

Instead I decided to invest in a proper DSP software (Acourate) and a calibration mic, and get the most out of my Roon based system within the constraints of my listening room. 

 

Fair enough!

 

Make your own choices - after all, only you have to live with them.

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Got it.  I use Server 2012 which I think may be different than Win10. I remember others say they had to run a dhcp server to make bridging work with Server.  In my case I use a PC based NAA so I just set a fixed ip in the NAA and everything works for me.

 

Btw, I did not have to bridge 3 adapters to get this to work for me using Server.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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Here is @romaz's first report on what he called the "triple combo," and what I've been calling the Ultra trifecta. :D

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?do=findComment&comment=633020

 

With regard to placement of the switch, note he says (emphasis mine):

 

Quote

With my NAA in the standard configuration (connected directly to a router), this reclocking switch made a small difference but barely worth the $100 I spent for it even when powered by an LPS-1. With either NAA directly connected to my Mac Mini and with this reclocking switch in the "direct" path, however, I was quite surprised by the significant improvement in terms of soundstage and clarity.

 

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