A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 7/26/2021 at 3:47 AM, romaz said:

Low output impedance is just as important as low noise with respect to SQ when designing a PSU and is more difficult to achieve.  If low noise is all that mattered, then why not just use batteries for everything?  Try battery powering a DAVE with any ol' cheap battery that you can buy from Amazon such as a PowerAdd that are designed for recharging cell phones and what you'll get are soft, slow, and smeared transients, a flat sound stage, and weak dynamic contrasts.  As you start to lower the output impedance from the power source, music starts to take form and comes to life.  It just becomes more 3D and palpable and low output impedance is what differentiates a DC4, SR7, Farad, or LPS-1.2 from the rest.  It's amazing how few ultra-low output impedance PSUs there are that are being sold for audio.  Chances are that if the manufacturer fails to mention "output impedance" or better yet, fails to state the output impedance of their PSU in their ad, that PSU is probably not a low output impedance PSU.  Despite the long wait times for PSUs from Sean Jacobs and Paul Hynes, there's a reason people have queued up for these devices.

 

Hi,

 

I am curious to know if there are any "theoretical" explanations for this, in the context of digital to analog conversion (as I understand you are using these low impendance PS to power a DAC).

 

Thanks

[ASRMichael]

37 minutes ago, RickyV said:

maybe this is something you like

http://www.die-meller-tischlerei.de/Webshop/Delignit-c61535559

 

@Exocer here you go! 

[ASRMichael]

37 minutes ago, RickyV said:

maybe this is something you like

http://www.die-meller-tischlerei.de/Webshop/Delignit-c61535559

 

@Exocer here you go! 

[ASRMichael]

37 minutes ago, RickyV said:

maybe this is something you like

http://www.die-meller-tischlerei.de/Webshop/Delignit-c61535559

 

@Exocer here you go! 

[ASRMichael]

37 minutes ago, RickyV said:

maybe this is something you like

http://www.die-meller-tischlerei.de/Webshop/Delignit-c61535559

 

@Exocer here you go! 

[RickyV]

2 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

Digging into custom chokes for audio you need to find a winder that knows what makes a choke sound good, my experience is that these folks are pretty rare so I'd take @Superdad up on that offer!

 

@Exocer ; do you plan to try the circuit without a circuit board? My experience with building a.o. a Le Monstre Amp (think high currents, low power output) is that hard wired sounds better, even when using double thickness circuit boards.

@Superdad?

 

Wouldn’t these do as a hi power choke?

MUNDORF VN236, 10mH, 5%, FERON ZOC, Ø2,5mm viOFC

[BOBO]

In terms of network latency, what windows settings do you guys modify to obtain lower latency ?

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

@Superdad?

 

Wouldn’t these do as a hi power choke?

MUNDORF VN236, 10mH, 5%, FERON ZOC, Ø2,5mm viOFC

 

$225 seems a bit over-priced, with nothing really to show it being much better than the $25 Hammond we use, except "oxygen free copper" wire.  

[LondonDan]

Anyone experience this with sound change? I live in a series of tall flats that historically only had virgin media cable. Fibre to street then coaxial cable to flats. This last few weeks a fibre provider installed fibre cable to every flat. The whole area is brand new install for them. Mine was installed yesterday and I am one of the first to switch on. Everything in the system remains the same (switches cables etc LPS) except the modem is now a fibre modem before my edge router x instead of cable modem. Even the LPS 12 is the same.

 

the sound with new equipment is more compressed and bass has decreased.

 

anyone ever changes ISP with totally new gear back to the street and suffered a big decrease in SQ?

 

could it just be that the modem and other fibre equipment from the ISP needs breaking in, it’s all brand new not just a switch of an existing ISP that has been running for years.

 

the modem they gave is Adtran the network is called community fibre, area is London.

 

joins go as follows, fibre up wall 10 floors from their splitter cabinet, pigtail splice to wall socket, 5m fibre patch to modem, modem powered by LPS I was using before.

[RickyV]

7 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

$225 seems a bit over-priced, with nothing really to show it being much better than the $25 Hammond we use, except "oxygen free copper" wire.  

Much thicker wire so lower internal resistance, vacuum impregnated, probably better iron core material.

Over priced, yes and normally use in speaker filters. 🙂

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

12 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Hi,

 

I am curious to know if there are any "theoretical" explanations for this, in the context of digital to analog conversion (as I understand you are using these low impendance PS to power a DAC).

 

Thanks

 

Question can be dismissed. I got confused by the assertion that there were improvements in "transients".

[MarcelNL]

Does that coil have enough current capacity at all? as far as I can tell that is a speaker filter coil, likely not made with any DC in mind let alone high current DC, likely lacking an air gap so saturating off the bat...just my 2 cents.

 

 

[MarcelNL]

anyone interested in an AMD build, I can vouch for the fact that the Aorus Master is well worth the upgrade....straight from the box and everything still cold after the swap....more flavours of nuances, control, inkieness, well many of the audio buzzwords we like so much ;-)

[MarcelNL]

Big question now is, add another 8 pin cable or not, did anyone venture into that realm? (probably, I just can't find it)

 

I dare paraphrase someone by saying that this was 'a small step for the CPU but a giant step for SQ"

[AngeloVRA]

1 hour ago, MarcelNL said:

Big question now is, add another 8 pin cable or not, did anyone venture into that realm? (probably, I just can't find it)

If you mean the 2nd 8 pin EPS cable for the CPU, I would say Yes, Its worth it.

My build wasn't an AMD though. It was a Xeon W-1290 on Gigabyte Vision D which had  8+4 pin CPU EPS connectors. I started wiring with just 2 pins and added 1 pair at a time and heard an uptick in SQ, mainly in fullness and dynamics. I ended up fully populating the 8+4 connectors.

 

[MarcelNL]

thanks! I found the thread meanwhile...and the extra 8Pin connectors I ordered when making the first 8Pin EPS cable...Neotech is ordered so I expect the hear the difference in a few days.

[numlog]

On 7/27/2021 at 6:57 AM, Gavin1977 said:

Those mundorfs are great, but what about ultra caps?  I would have thought they’d be preferable when trying to achieve ultra low impedance.  Also smaller and cheaper.

Used correctly, ultra caps (and also batteries in some ways) are the ultimate choice as a direct power source for a circuit, particularly analog circuits, providing massive energy storage with exceptionally low output impedance passively (i.e without feedback). 

Used indirectly e.g coming before a network of active DC-DC converters or regulators using feedback, it would be not surprising they don't sound better,  or worse even, than traditional supplies. 

 

Ultra caps, similar to batteries, will have higher impedance at very high frequencies than regular capacitors (and possibly active regulators too), so using large capacitors banks in combination with them is still a good idea, it can help address the 'slow' or 'smeared' sound, they are not a substitute in other words. 

 

They also only come in very low voltages, for 36V you would a huge amount wired in series, the impedance adds up and capacitance divides down when you do, so you would need to add the same amount in parallel to each time to maintain the same performance of one ultra cap... not cheap or small.

 

Coincidentally digital circuits will be running at voltages of 3.3V or lower typically.... ideal conditions for ultra caps to be used directly.

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, LondonDan said:

Anyone experience this with sound change? I live in a series of tall flats that historically only had virgin media cable. Fibre to street then coaxial cable to flats. This last few weeks a fibre provider installed fibre cable to every flat. The whole area is brand new install for them. Mine was installed yesterday and I am one of the first to switch on. Everything in the system remains the same (switches cables etc LPS) except the modem is now a fibre modem before my edge router x instead of cable modem. Even the LPS 12 is the same.

 

the sound with new equipment is more compressed and bass has decreased.

 

anyone ever changes ISP with totally new gear back to the street and suffered a big decrease in SQ?

 

could it just be that the modem and other fibre equipment from the ISP needs breaking in, it’s all brand new not just a switch of an existing ISP that has been running for years.

 

the modem they gave is Adtran the network is called community fibre, area is London.

 

joins go as follows, fibre up wall 10 floors from their splitter cabinet, pigtail splice to wall socket, 5m fibre patch to modem, modem powered by LPS I was using before.

 

That's a tough situation, because it's at the point in your chain where you have least control. I have not directly compared one ISP to another, so this is something most of us rarely get a chance to compare.

 

I would see if the ISP is willing to let you try an alternate modem. Here in the US, many ISPs allow users to supply their own modem (and avoid the lease fee), but there are many plans that bundle the modem lease. Perhaps a different modem (brand/model) will resolve the issue.

 

The unfortunate truth of the networking chain leading to the audio system is that the entire chain makes an impact. However, switches like the Melco S100, modded Buffalo, SOtM sNH-10G, and Uptone etherRegen, among others, do mute (but not eliminate) the impact of the upstream. It sounds like you have such a switch (or chain of switches) already. Similarly, ensuring the entire network chain is on LPSes also helps. Here too, it looks like you're already doing that.

 

As I've discussed in my recent posts, I've grown weary of chasing these network tweaks, and endeavor, where possible, to run locally stored (or cached) music with the network disconnected. "No network" never disappoints me! Of course, this does not address the use case of streaming music.

 

Ultimately, if the problem does not resolve, you're faced with the choice of retaining your old ISP. Frustrating, I know.

[DuckToller]

9 hours ago, LondonDan said:

Anyone experience this with sound change? I live in a series of tall flats that historically only had virgin media cable. Fibre to street then coaxial cable to flats. This last few weeks a fibre provider installed fibre cable to every flat. The whole area is brand new install for them. Mine was installed yesterday and I am one of the first to switch on. Everything in the system remains the same (switches cables etc LPS) except the modem is now a fibre modem before my edge router x instead of cable modem. Even the LPS 12 is the same.

 

the sound with new equipment is more compressed and bass has decreased.

 

anyone ever changes ISP with totally new gear back to the street and suffered a big decrease in SQ?

 

could it just be that the modem and other fibre equipment from the ISP needs breaking in, it’s all brand new not just a switch of an existing ISP that has been running for years.

 

the modem they gave is Adtran the network is called community fibre, area is London.

 

joins go as follows, fibre up wall 10 floors from their splitter cabinet, pigtail splice to wall socket, 5m fibre patch to modem, modem powered by LPS I was using before.

Sorry to hear about your experienced SQ decrease:
Some steps to single out problem zones:
If you disconnect from the external network using local files  without using the new modem, are you experiencing the same loss of SQ?
If you disconnect from the external network using local files  but using the new modem, are you experiencing the same loss of SQ ?
If you disconnect from the external network, using streaming over you phone , forwarding the signal to your WiFi network, without using the new modem, are you experiencing the same loss of SQ ?
If you disconnect from the external network, using streaming over you phone, but using the new modem for signal forwarding into your network, are you experiencing the same loss of SQ ?

IIRC, cost effective (for your local ISP) upstream providers may have different, more cost effective routing to connect with your digital music sources (VOX/Tidal). That may result in different routing, longer pings and sometimes in crossing the Atlantic 2 or more times only to arrive in London. Or using network hubs/peering interfaces that are at a critical capacity stage.
I would actually think that the software solution of your streams would compensate for possible difficulties, but who knows.

If you are sure that you can identify the source problem, I'd try to figure out with the service provider, if they can trace network problems to your new ISP in order to confirm or not, and try to go for the alternative modem route if applicable.

Best of lucks, Tom

 

[seeteeyou]

9 hours ago, LondonDan said:

the sound with new equipment is more compressed and bass has decreased.

 

Since you could connect your MacBook (could Vox be good enough for testing or do you need to get TIDAL installed?) to Hegel H590 via USB, do a comparison between them by streaming the same familiar track(s)

• Wireless connection from your smartphone (i.e. unplug the network cable from your MacBook, turn on Mobile Hotspot on your smartphone and finally connect your MacBook to that Mobile Hotspot)

• Wired connection from your ISP

If the differences between the two were significant, run two separate tests and compare the results afterwards

 

https://speed.cloudflare.com

 

Latency might not mean much in this case but I'm just wondering if that were somehow correlated to the sound quality, especially if there were something wrong with the wired connection from your ISP. Of course there could very well be other tests available on a different site and perhaps that could help you with eliminating the confounding factors hidden somewhere?

[MarcelNL]

First question is : did they test the fibers after installing? We had fiber connected in a new home some years ago and they had to come back three times to repair breaks in the street. I'd start with your ISP, the work may not be finished and it could be they use some backup system for now.

[Exocer]

If every network component influences what we hear then is it possible that the new equipment needs more time to settle in a bit?

[LondonDan]

thanks everyone for the advice, I appreciate it.

 

I played again this evening familiar streaming tracks - I can tell if it improved, which means if anything its subtle, had TV steaming with sound on all day. Olympics is good for background!

 

I tried wifi streaming over tidal from MacBook, there is no improvement just a slightly different sound vs UPnP as the Laptop connects via usb plus its a laptop and the signature of the Nordorst cable is different but that is as normal (I still need to try the cellular stream over hotspot vs wifi stream) Wifi is into the router prior to Ediscreation Silent Switch Extreme version (network diagram attached).

 

I have run tests offline with Vox (not connected to wifi) Flac files stored on SSD and there is a difference as expected to the streaming but there was a difference before its just a bigger gap now.

 

I disconnected the power to the Modem while playing offline files too, no change so its not an EMI or other interference from the new modem.

 

Powered the Modem back on and played a Vox stored track while it booted up then switched to a steam of the same track via UPnP.  It could be that it improved slightly but I cant be certain and I don't even know that if that was the case why on earth rebooting a modem when the connection seemed fine would change anything. Perception that bass went up slightly but cant be certain it mild if anything. I will do some more side by side tests and plug back in the old virgin modem to check the difference between the two again. Might need to wait until weekend but that's OK.

 

Different modem could be a plan I will get in touch with the ISP, the guy who installed said it was an "Adtran area" but I don't see why another modem wouldn't work they would just need to activate it.

 

who knows where the signals are bouncing from and what could be different to the Virgin Network. I ran the test @seeteeyou suggested over wifi from MacBook just now and the result are attached but I couldn't tell you what is a good result or not. Latency 18ms, jitter 88.4 I can run the same test on the virgin cable when I plug it back in. If packets are arriving with error due to a break in the fibre could it cause packet resend if that makes sense? maybe the tests should be hard wired into the switch to test and then the router torun the latency test again?

 

Settling in is also an option, existing system has a audio level reclocking switch and the whole downstream from the ISP has been worked on a lot and its been great, the switch to provider was obvious not subtle, even my wife tells me she thinks its different.

 

Thanks again for your comments

Dan

[MarcelNL]

How long ago was your  connection initiated? Sometimes speed goes up/latency goes down once your connection is updated everywhere.

 

Not sure I get what the Mac is doing, is that just controlling the streaming amp? Assuming it is used to stream music coming in via WIFI going out over USB that may be your battlezone.

 

Wifi does not work for me, for best SQ wired does the trick. Via Wifi I get 200+ Mbps and  a ping of 7 ms, which is pretty good, SQ over wifi is a lot less than via ethernet, or fiber.

 

Connect your mac to your switch with a piece of UTP and try again, if there is a large difference  you may be looking at the position of your WIFI AP....20cm to the left or right might be enough...

[LondonDan]

@MarcelNL the amp has a built in streamer the Mac is more for local files and internet radio. It’s the UPnP streaming via the switch direct to the amp that’s changed. The test in the graphs above was run over wifi though.
 

the line was activated on Wednesday Morning.