A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

austinpop · August 26, 2020

Hey folks, please use the other DIY build threads to gets into nuts and bolts.

Please use this thread for listening reports of sound quality.

rickca · August 26, 2020

On 8/25/2020 at 11:50 AM, lmitche said:

Good news, the new Hdplex 300 watt feeding both 12 and 19 volts power to my server is very close in sound quality to the dual 200 watt configuration.

I'm also using an HDPLEX 300W LPS with the 12V rail powering the 8-pin EPS12V and the 19V rail powering a V2.1 400W DC-ATX. Good price/performance.

I discovered that the 400W DC-ATX fits perfectly in a 5.25" drive bay in my mid-tower case which is fortunately very close to the motherboard 24-pin. The length of the 400W DC-ATX is exactly the depth of a 5.25" bay.

I just leave the 300W LPS powered on all the time. When the computer goes to sleep, the 300W LPS cools off rapidly.

Bricki · August 27, 2020

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

The impact of removing the isolated cores may surprise you.

Interesting... When did you move away from isolated cores? I haven't tried without isolated cores since changing from the BFQ kernel to the non BFQ... Also Audiolinux 2.5 was a nice bump in SQ for my system... With the non BFQ kernel the Intel pstate scaling driver is now much better than acpi also...

I have just removed isolated cores on my roon core and have been listening for a few minutes... So far I think it's now better without isolated cpu cores... Some slightly lower level sounds seem a little less veiled... perhaps a bit more body to the double bass as well and bit more ambience.

BTW do you still have your core and endpoint on the B side of the Etheregen? I moved my roon server back to the A side with just the endpoint on the B side with no bridge...I thought this sounded better particularly after the addition of an edgerouter X

Bricki · August 27, 2020

6 hours ago, cat6man said:

i have a 7i7 NUC running audio-linux and euphony stylus.

what are the recommended settings for core isolation?

I only have dual core machines so the only option for me with isolated cores is to choose the half option... What sounds best does seem to depend on what other software and settings you are using... I'm currently using Audiolinux 2.5 with the non BFQ kernel intel pstate and roon build 610 and I'm thinking that I'm better off without isolated cpu cores in this configuration

bernardl · August 27, 2020

Guys, just one quick feedback about the importance of proper grounding for Cybershaft super clocks.

I am using a top of the line OP21A-D to drive my EtheRegen.

The sound went from "not bad but not great either" to "my god, this is the best I have heard anywhere whatever the price" after grounding the Cybershaft to my common ground reference (a Shunyata Everest). I just couldn't believe my ear. It almost feels as if the Cybershaft were not properly clocking the EtheRegen in my system without being grounded. I don't quite understand why this would be case, unless some current loops occur that strongly impact the clocking signal. I guess it may be the case.

This may result from the EtheRegen itself being grounded to the Everest, I have not done more tests without EtheRegen grounding.

I use Shunyata Sigma grounding cables btw, not that I think that the type of grounding cable has a major impact (but it may have some), a Shunyata Sigma clock cable too.

Cheers,

Bernard

lmitche · August 27, 2020

8 hours ago, Bricki said:

Interesting... When did you move away from isolated cores? I haven't tried without isolated cores since changing from the BFQ kernel to the non BFQ... Also Audiolinux 2.5 was a nice bump in SQ for my system... With the non BFQ kernel the Intel pstate scaling driver is now much better than acpi also...

I have just removed isolated cores on my roon core and have been listening for a few minutes... So far I think it's now better without isolated cpu cores... Some slightly lower level sounds seem a little less veiled... perhaps a bit more body to the double bass as well and bit more ambience.

BTW do you still have your core and endpoint on the B side of the Etheregen? I moved my roon server back to the A side with just the endpoint on the B side with no bridge...I thought this sounded better particularly after the addition of an edgerouter X

HI Bricki

Sometime back in January following the AL2 release isolated cores were dropped here. As I remember this was coincident with a major Roon upgrade.

Following that my endpoint was retired and now everything runs on an AMD server. On the network side the server is connected with an Adnaco remote USB to a Tplink NIC with a 1 m Monoprice cable to a Linksys RE9000 wireless network extender feeding internet services to my loft. The Linksys is powered at 5 volts via a series of LT3045 regulators.

Marcin_gps · August 27, 2020

20 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

Hi Marcin does the JCAT XE need a driver for the Z570 and Z490 motherboards to recognize the USB card?

I had a USB 3.0 driver but this stop working with my latest Z490 motherboard 10700k PC!

Any ideas ?

No driver is needed. Unless you're using Windows 7?

Regards,

Marcin

Bricki · August 27, 2020

11 hours ago, lmitche said:

HI Bricki

Sometime back in January following the AL2 release isolated cores were dropped here. As I remember this was coincident with a major Roon upgrade.

Following that my endpoint was retired and now everything runs on an AMD server. On the network side the server is connected with an Adnaco remote USB to a Tplink NIC with a 1 m Monoprice cable to a Linksys RE9000 wireless network extender feeding internet services to my loft. The Linksys is powered at 5 volts via a series of LT3045 regulators.

Ok thanks...do you use hyper threading? I disabled it in my bios years ago and I've never retested it...

Have you tried a 10th gen NUC? Or is it worth just spending more and doing a full ATX build? If I do an atx build I won't have an adequate PSU🙄...

Is your Etheregen further up your chain near your router?

Edit....

Sorry, I realise these questions are very hard to answer... Kind of like, how long is a piece of string? 🙄

But I'm trying to learn from others and address my systems weakest point with my annual HiFi budget spend 😁... figuring out my weakest point is the hard part... Where my dollars will be most effective.

Bricki · August 28, 2020

BTW 10 minutes ago I just upgraded from Audiolinux 2.5 to 2.6 with the new 5.6.19 kernel and it really does sound considerably better 😳... it's a really really nice upgrade... even more clarity and ease

lmitche · August 28, 2020

12 hours ago, Bricki said:

Ok thanks...do you use hyper threading? I disabled it in my bios years ago and I've never retested it...

Have you tried a 10th gen NUC? Or is it worth just spending more and doing a full ATX build? If I do an atx build I won't have an adequate PSU🙄...

Is your Etheregen further up your chain near your router?

Edit....

Sorry, I realise these questions are very hard to answer... Kind of like, how long is a piece of string? 🙄

But I'm trying to learn from others and address my systems weakest point with my annual HiFi budget spend 😁... figuring out my weakest point is the hard part... Where my dollars will be most effective.

HI Bricki, Wow lot's of questions , , , let's take this to a PM please. Larry

cat6man · August 28, 2020

15 hours ago, Bricki said:

BTW 10 minutes ago I just upgraded from Audiolinux 2.5 to 2.6 with the new 5.6.19 kernel and it really does sound considerably better 😳... it's a really really nice upgrade... even more clarity and ease

+1 on the upgrade from 2.5 to 2.6

i need to do some more listening to characterize the improvement.

by the way, i'm running LMS/squeezelite on 7i7 NUC, with ~5Gig for -b buffer setting and slimrun usb optical cable from nuc to DAC, external HDD off of NUC, all powered by hdplex300

what config are you running?

seeteeyou · September 1, 2020

On 8/13/2020 at 2:33 PM, austinpop said:

And hark! Is that a thundering herd of Buffalo headed my way?

Go big or go home, triple bypass FTW

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59887-buffalo-gs20xx-bypass-12v-stage-via-3-external-pss/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1077390

1 hour ago, tgb said:

I installed a MPaudio PS (ALD-HPULN) + its transformer 2*4.2VAC => to power the 3.3 & 1.5VDC.

The Buff is not the same anymore : night-day. 3D, precision, crosstalk...

Regarding that 25MHz clock, these Californians might be able to acquire (MOQ = 1) the same OCXO that's found on JCAT USB Card XE

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-kx-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-kw-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-mw-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

RickyV · September 1, 2020

15 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Go big or go home, triple bypass FTW

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59887-buffalo-gs20xx-bypass-12v-stage-via-3-external-pss/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1077390

Regarding that 25MHz clock, these Californians might be able to acquire (MOQ = 1) the same OCXO that's found on JCAT USB Card XE

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-kx-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-kw-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

https://www.elementsearch.com/sitime-sit5711ai-mw-33n-25-000000f-oscillators

I can definitely recommend triple bypassing the switch mode regulators on the buffalo it sounds really good and I have it up stream via fiber from the ER.

Bliman · September 2, 2020

Is this thread also to help to build a good sort of mini pc from scratch for the best quality for the lowest cost?

austinpop · September 2, 2020

4 minutes ago, Bliman said:

Is this thread also to help to build a good sort of mini pc from scratch for the best quality for the lowest cost?

Thanks for checking. That would be best done in either one of the existing DIY threads like this one:

Or create a new related thread, with the focus on lowest cost.

mourip · September 3, 2020

19 hours ago, Bliman said:

Is this thread also to help to build a good sort of mini pc from scratch for the best quality for the lowest cost?

We started out with many posts for great tweaks that were not necessarily expensive and nearly always remarkably useful. It was Spring Time! The thread has definitely moved in a new direction. I would liken it to our space program. It can be argued that the program has produced many discoveries that have trickled down to help tax payers in everyday life but it is very, very expensive.

Perhaps that will eventually happen again here...

You may need to look at either earlier posts in the thread or at some of Chris's seminal posts for dedicated audio PC's. Those servers were a bargain by current standards and still work great.

austinpop · September 3, 2020

There's a whole spectrum of people here, using and enjoying endpoints and music servers at both ends of the price spectrum.

My only point was that this is not a "how to build a PC" thread. It's a thread about listening experiences with whatever you built/tried. At any price point.

austinpop · September 3, 2020

Extreme Update After a Month

I promised I would not disappear, so here I am with another update. This will be in 2 sections: first, a quick update on the Extreme after about a month of arrival, and another round of switch tests, which might be more generally interesting.

Extreme Update

After about a month of ownership, the Extreme has continued to improve, and give me more and more enjoyment. Some thoughts:

Burn-in: While SQ has continued to improve, I feel the 3 weeks of intense burn in at Taiko with Emile's load script seems to have taken care of the bulk of the burn in. If you are getting one, be patient and let Taiko burn it in for as long as you can stand to wait!
Just listening: Most of this month has been about listening to music. You know you have something good when you stop comparing or evaluating, and just enjoying your collection. The true moments of joy come when you're listening to something familiar, and you either hear something new, or previously missed, or something that evokes a stronger response than you expected. These are the joys of the Extreme.
Power Cables: I started out powering the Extreme with the Cardas Clear Beyond cable, which is no slouch, and it performed admirably, with the PS Audio AC-12 cable feeding my power conditioner from the wall. Again I stress — these are outstanding cables already. I had a chance to compare this baseline to the combo of Sablon King from the wall to TT-7, and Sablon Prince from the TT-7 to the Extreme. The improvement was just astonishing! I never cease to be amazed how big a difference power cables make. The soundstage opens up more, and the music just breathes easier. And of course — the dynamics! @ray-dude's wonderful Extreme review captures this already, so all I can say is the impact of these — sadly rather expensive — cables is very real.
No USB Spaghetti: My USB path is now spaghetti-free: a single Sablon 2020 USB cable from the Extreme to my DAC. Bye-bye USB regenerator, clock, PSU rail, and power, USB, and DC cables!
Spaghetti still lives on the network side: Where I still have spaghetti is my network path, and looks like this.
- TLS OCXO > Cu > eR > SFP > SOtM (both ref clocked by MUTEC REF10 SE120)
  - The reason for this order is I can just flip the Off switch on the SOtM when I want to do disconnected listening with HQPlayer.
- All 3 switches get SR-7 DR 12v
- Cu == SOtM dCBL-Cat7
- SFP == Planet Tech. (I need to retry the Finisar SFP again. TBD, but motivation is somewhat low!)
Disconnected is best: My preferred mode of listening is local playback (from local SSD) using HQPlayer, with the network disconnected. Not only does this sound sublime, but it forms a reference for what the network chain needs to achieve.

I'll talk more about my network saga in a follow on post.

dminches · September 3, 2020

When you are playing local files from the SSD with the network attached are there still a lot of “calls” for network activity with the Extreme? I would think they would be minimal but they must be significant enough for the disconnect to result in an uptick in sound quality.

ASRMichael · September 3, 2020

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

Extreme Update After a Month

I promised I would not disappear, so here I am with another update. This will be in 2 sections: first, a quick update on the Extreme after about a month of arrival, and another round of switch tests, which might be more generally interesting.

Extreme Update

After about a month of ownership, the Extreme has continued to improve, and give me more and more enjoyment. Some thoughts:

Burn-in: While SQ has continued to improve, I feel the 3 weeks of intense burn in at Taiko with Emile's load script seems to have taken care of the bulk of the burn in. If you are getting one, be patient and let Taiko burn it in for as long as you can stand to wait!

Just listening: Most of this month has been about listening to music. You know you have something good when you stop comparing or evaluating, and just enjoying your collection. The true moments of joy come when you're listening to something familiar, and you either hear something new, or previously missed, or something that evokes a stronger response than you expected. These are the joys of the Extreme.

Power Cables: I started out powering the Extreme with the Cardas Clear Beyond cable, which is no slouch, and it performed admirably, with the PS Audio AC-12 cable feeding my power conditioner from the wall. Again I stress — these are outstanding cables already. I had a chance to compare this baseline to the combo of Sablon King from the wall to TT-7, and Sablon Prince from the TT-7 to the Extreme. The improvement was just astonishing! I never cease to be amazed how big a difference power cables make. The soundstage opens up more, and the music just breathes easier. And of course — the dynamics! @ray-dude's wonderful Extreme review captures this already, so all I can say is the impact of these — sadly rather expensive — cables is very real.

No USB Spaghetti: My USB path is now spaghetti-free: a single Sablon 2020 USB cable from the Extreme to my DAC. Bye-bye USB regenerator, clock, PSU rail, and power, USB, and DC cables!

Spaghetti still lives on the network side: Where I still have spaghetti is my network path, and looks like this.

TLS OCXO > Cu > eR > SFP > SOtM (both ref clocked by MUTEC REF10 SE120)

The reason for this order is I can just flip the Off switch on the SOtM when I want to do disconnected listening with HQPlayer.

All 3 switches get SR-7 DR 12v

Cu == SOtM dCBL-Cat7

SFP == Planet Tech. (I need to retry the Finisar SFP again. TBD, but motivation is somewhat low!)

Disconnected is best: My preferred mode of listening is local playback (from local SSD) using HQPlayer, with the network disconnected. Not only does this sound sublime, but it forms a reference for what the network chain needs to achieve.

I'll talk more about my network saga in a follow on post.

@audiopop I’ve just noticed you have a TT-7, Nenon told me how amazing these are, & not cheap. So how much sound quality is the TT-7 adding to the Extreme? It would be really good to know how the Extreme sounds without the TT-7?

Being able to afford an Extreme is one thing, but adding a TT-7 now put this in 50k mark.

Comparing with & without would help understand both products.

If you can do that would be great?

austinpop · September 3, 2020

3 hours ago, dminches said:

When you are playing local files from the SSD with the network attached are there still a lot of “calls” for network activity with the Extreme? I would think they would be minimal but they must be significant enough for the disconnect to result in an uptick in sound quality.

Yes, stay tuned for my network update in a few hours. It is true that with the Extreme, Emile has tuned the network OS parameters such that the impact of just the mere presence of the network on local playback is very small. Of course, this does not apply to Roon, which is very chatty on the network. This is with HQPlayer playing local files. It actually helps to quit Roon and JPlay.

Still, if I'm listening to a symphony, I'll always go ahead and physically disconnect the network for the absolute best SQ.

austinpop · September 3, 2020

38 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

@audiopop I’ve just noticed you have a TT-7, Nenon told me how amazing these are, & not cheap. So how much sound quality is the TT-7 adding to the Extreme? It would be really good to know how the Extreme sounds without the TT-7?

Being able to afford an Extreme is one thing, but adding a TT-7 now put this in 50k mark.

Comparing with & without would help understand both products.

If you can do that would be great?

Not sure who audiopop is, but it's not me!

I think I've already described the improvement due to the TT-7 in prior posts. It would be a major inconvenience at this point to do what you suggest, as my P5 is sold, and the P12 review unit — a review which I'm still writing! — is all packed up.

The fact, that the Extreme benefitted so significantly from lower gauge power cables like the 6AWG Prince, suggests it is a device that benefits from, and delivers superior sound quality with, a power system that can deliver prodigious instantaneous current. This is also one of the key strengths of the TT-7, and it goes hand in hand with having a 6AWG dedicated circuit preceding it.

These things all work in concert. None are strictly necessary, yet all make a profound difference. Think of a sublime Federer tennis shot. That power comes from many parts of the system (his body) moving in perfect synchrony: the ankles, knees, hips, shoulders, arms, and hands, each contributing to the end result, which is devastating power!

Bliman · September 3, 2020

On 9/2/2020 at 6:51 PM, austinpop said:

Thanks for checking. That would be best done in either one of the existing DIY threads like this one:

Or create a new related thread, with the focus on lowest cost.

Thank you.

austinpop · September 3, 2020

Network Fun with Buffaloes!

My goal remains to eliminate the spaghetti on the networking path. Frankly, I don't think this is achievable yet, given my — and most people here's — experience. So my more realistic goal is to simplify this chain as much as possible. Part of this goal is to wean myself off the REF10 SE120 clock. As things stand, with my chain as shown — TLS OCXO > Cu > eR > SFP > SOtM — the SE120 is massive overkill, as its only purpose now is to reference clock the eR and sNH-10G switches. I would dearly love to sell the SE120 to offset some of my recent expenditures, but the irony is that the positive impact it has on SQ is still so great, that it would be hard to give up.

It is against this backdrop that I recently got a chance to evaluate 2 different Buffalo switches that @Nenon sent me while he went off on vacation. Both switches started life as bog-standard Buffalo BGS-2016 16-port managed switches. @Nenon modded both of them as follows:

Ripped out the crappy SMPS they came with.
Added wiring to accept an external DC input
NEW - added a capacitor board, inspired by the Melco, between the DC input and the internal power board
- Recall that some of us had found the Buffalo to be a touch harsh compared to the Melco the last time we had tried it, and @Nenon strongly suspected that Melco's capacitor board was designed to tame this harshness. He took it one step further and constructed something, which I was very eager to try.

Additionally, in one of the switches, @Nenon replaced (DIY) the clock with a Pink Faun OCXO, similar to the mod @auricgoldfinger had done by Pink Faun to his Melco S100.

Since I now had 5 switches in hand, the number of combinations of possible experiments was impractically large. So I took the following approach:

Start with a single switch in place, and rank the switches both in terms of preference, and their character.
Since I have 3 rails of SR-7 DR available, pick an optimal chain of maximum 3 switches
Attempt to eliminate dependence on the reference clock.

For all these tests, I listened to streaming music - i.e. using Roon/Qobuz. Even with Roon/Qobuz, I could listen in disconnected playback mode for sometimes a minute or two before playback stopped. This gave me enough to fix in my aural memory as the absolute reference SQ. This proved very helpful.

Individual Switch rankings

Before I get into this, here are the PSUs I used.

PSUs used:

TLS OCXO: 9v from SR7 DR, PH DC6FS DC cable
PF Buffalo:
- main input: 12v from DXPWR DR unit via Nenon-supplied Mundorf silver-gold cable. DXPWR DR unit fed 15v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable
- clock input: 5v from DXPWR DR unit via Nenon-supplied Mundorf silver-gold cable. DXPWR DR unit fed 9v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable
eR, modded Buffalo:
- 12v from DXPWR DR unit via Oyaide FTVS-910 silver cable. DXPWR DR unit fed with15v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable
SoTM: 12v SR-7 DR, PH DC6FS cable

Here are switches ranked from worst to best:

The Linear Solution (TLS) OCXO: While still a noticeable improvement over a stock Netgear GS108 switch, the TLS has been surpassed by the others, and by a wide margin.
Tie between 2 switches, that really go well together in my system!
1. SOtM sNH-10G: Its biggest strength is the wonderful open soundstage and resolution, especially when reference clocked
2. Uptone etherRegen: trades a bit of air and resolution from the SOtM, but adds some heft, solidity, calmness, and liquidity. Really opens up when reference clocked.
Modded Buffalo: Since I no longer had the Melco S100 on hand, I can only go by recollection, but this modded Buffalo sounded very similar to the S100 as I remembered it. Further, when comparing with the eR, the same differences I described in my review were evident. What the Buffalo adds most is density, solidity, and tonal saturation. It gives up some of the resolution and air of the SOtM, and the liquidity of the eR.
PF-clock modded Buffalo (or PF-Buffalo): This is the best I've heard any switch sound. This takes the qualities of the modded Buffalo and adds that clock-y goodness that those of you who've dabbled with better clocks can easily recognize. Bigger soundstage, instruments more dimensional and better delineated, and more texture.

Switch Combinations

As many here, including myself, @romaz and @Nenon have described, every switch you add in the chain seems to add its character to the SQ. Finding the optimal combo then becomes like a recipe — mix and match the attributes you like, and pick the best combination. In my case, I limited the chain to 3 because those were the number of SR-7 DR rails I had available.

As in my previous post, I'll used the following shorthand:

Cu == copper; SOtM dCBL-Cat7 cable
SFP == fiber; Planet Tech SFPs with single mode fiber.

I tried a lot of different combinations, but to cut to the chase, I'll pick 3 that were notable:

Best combo with reference clock: eR (ref clocked) > Cu > sNH-10G (ref clocked) > SFP > PF-Buffalo > Cu > Extreme

The combo of the eR and sNH-10G both clocked by the REF10 SE120 is really quite special, and pairing that with the PF-Buffalo just takes this to a new level. This was the best sounding combo of all. Sadly, this was also the most expensive. 😢
Best combo with no reference clock: sNH-10G > Cu > modded Buffalo> SFP > PF-Buffalo> Cu > Extreme

The air and resolution of the sNH-10G balanced nicely with the density and saturation of the two Buffaloes, producing a result similar to, but not quite as good as combo 1. Another way of thinking about this is that the Pink Faun OCXO mod on the Buffalo does not deliver quite the refinement that the REF10 SE120 reference clock brings, especially when applied to the eR/SOtM combo.
My combo going forward: eR (ref clocked) > Cu > modded Buffalo> SFP > sNH-10G (ref clocked)> Cu > Extreme

Since @Nenon really needed his PF-Buffalo back (can't blame him - it is so good!), this is what my new chain looks like. The TLS falls off, and the modded-Buffalo gets added, for about the cost of what I paid for the TLS. A real bargain.

Where do I go from here

As you can see, I have a very good sounding network chain, but it leaves me no closer to my goal of eliminating (or at least reducing) spaghetti, and of weaning myself off of the REF10 SE120. I'll be the first to admit that this collection of switches + PSU + clock is insanely out of whack in terms of cost! And even then, there is still an SQ gap between local and streaming sources.

Due to this, my thinking has shifted on the value of spending a lot on network tweaks. The network question is really two separate issues:

Does the network degrade local playback, and how to fix it?
- With the Extreme, I feel I am already at a very good place here.
- The delta improvement of disconnecting the network is very small, barely noticeable.
- For best performance, I can always use HQP for playback, and disconnect the network.
- So this is a SOLVED problem in my case, and for many others.
How to achieve the same SQ with Qobuz/Tidal as local files?
- We've all been chasing this dream for years. Sometimes I've appeared to have closed the gap, only to find an advance in local playback that widened the gap again.
- I've now arrived at a place where I feel this is not a realistic goal, and to spend insane amounts on network tweaks is not a good use of money.
- I now accept Qobuz/Tidal as lower SQ sources, to explore and discover new music. If I love an album to want to listen to repeatedly, then it has to be purchased and placed in local storage.
- Even if I buy 100 albums a year at $20/album, it's a better investment than buying a $2000 switch.

I haven't made any firm decisions. One of the things I'm waiting to see is if Emile's forthcoming switch (see this post, and follow ons) can yield the kind of simplicity I crave. Depending on the way things evolve, I will sooner or later put my REF10 SE120 on the market. If you might be interested, but can wait, drop me a PM, so I know to contact you when the time comes. On the other hand, I am never going to sell my SR7MR3DRXL, so don't even ask.

Exocer · September 3, 2020

11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Network Fun with Buffaloes!

My goal remains to eliminate the spaghetti on the networking path. Frankly, I don't think this is achievable yet, given my — and most people here's — experience. So my more realistic goal is to simplify this chain as much as possible. Part of this goal is to wean myself off the REF10 SE120 clock. As things stand, with my chain as shown — TLS OCXO > Cu > eR > SFP > SOtM — the SE120 is massive overkill, as its only purpose now is to reference clock the eR and sNH-10G switches. I would dearly love to sell the SE120 to offset some of my recent expenditures, but the irony is that the positive impact it has on SQ is still so great, that it would be hard to give up.

It is against this backdrop that I recently got a chance to evaluate 2 different Buffalo switches that @Nenon sent me while he went off on vacation. Both switches started life as bog-standard Buffalo BGS-2016 16-port managed switches. @Nenon modded both of them as follows:

Ripped out the crappy SMPS they came with.

Added wiring to accept an external DC input

NEW - added a capacitor board, inspired by the Melco, between the DC input and the internal power board

Recall that some of us had found the Buffalo to be a touch harsh compared to the Melco the last time we had tried it, and @Nenon strongly suspected that Melco's capacitor board was designed to tame this harshness. He took it one step further and constructed something, which I was very eager to try.

Additionally, in one of the switches, @Nenon replaced (DIY) the clock with a Pink Faun OCXO, similar to the mod @auricgoldfinger had done by Pink Faun to his Melco S100.

Since I now had 5 switches in hand, the number of combinations of possible experiments was impractically large. So I took the following approach:

Start with a single switch in place, and rank the switches both in terms of preference, and their character.

Since I have 3 rails of SR-7 DR available, pick an optimal chain of maximum 3 switches

Attempt to eliminate dependence on the reference clock.

For all these tests, I listened to streaming music - i.e. using Roon/Qobuz. Even with Roon/Qobuz, I could listen in disconnected playback mode for sometimes a minute or two before playback stopped. This gave me enough to fix in my aural memory as the absolute reference SQ. This proved very helpful.

Individual Switch rankings

Before I get into this, here are the PSUs I used.

PSUs used:

TLS OCXO: 9v from SR7 DR, PH DC6FS DC cable

PF Buffalo:

main input: 12v from DXPWR DR unit via Nenon-supplied Mundorf silver-gold cable. DXPWR DR unit fed 15v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable

clock input: 5v from DXPWR DR unit via Nenon-supplied Mundorf silver-gold cable. DXPWR DR unit fed 9v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable

eR, modded Buffalo:

12v from DXPWR DR unit via Oyaide FTVS-910 silver cable. DXPWR DR unit fed with15v from SR7 DR via PH DC6FS cable

SoTM: 12v SR-7 DR, PH DC6FS cable

Here are switches ranked from worst to best:

The Linear Solution (TLS) OCXO: While still a noticeable improvement over a stock Netgear GS108 switch, the TLS has been surpassed by the others, and by a wide margin.

Tie between 2 switches, that really go well together in my system!

SOtM sNH-10G: Its biggest strength is the wonderful open soundstage and resolution, especially when reference clocked

Uptone etherRegen: trades a bit of air and resolution from the SOtM, but adds some heft, solidity, calmness, and liquidity. Really opens up when reference clocked.

Modded Buffalo: Since I no longer had the Melco S100 on hand, I can only go by recollection, but this modded Buffalo sounded very similar to the S100 as I remembered it. Further, when comparing with the eR, the same differences I described in my review were evident. What the Buffalo adds most is density, solidity, and tonal saturation. It gives up some of the resolution and air of the SOtM, and the liquidity of the eR.

PF-clock modded Buffalo (or PF-Buffalo): This is the best I've heard any switch sound. This takes the qualities of the modded Buffalo and adds that clock-y goodness that those of you who've dabbled with better clocks can easily recognize. Bigger soundstage, instruments more dimensional and better delineated, and more texture.

Switch Combinations

As many here, including myself, @romaz and @Nenon have described, every switch you add in the chain seems to add its character to the SQ. Finding the optimal combo then becomes like a recipe — mix and match the attributes you like, and pick the best combination. In my case, I limited the chain to 3 because those were the number of SR-7 DR rails I had available.

As in my previous post, I'll used the following shorthand:

Cu == copper; SOtM dCBL-Cat7 cable

SFP == fiber; Planet Tech SFPs with single mode fiber.

I tried a lot of different combinations, but to cut to the chase, I'll pick 3 that were notable:

Best combo with reference clock: eR (ref clocked) > Cu > sNH-10G (ref clocked) > SFP > PF-Buffalo > Cu > Extreme

The combo of the eR and sNH-10G both clocked by the REF10 SE120 is really quite special, and pairing that with the PF-Buffalo just takes this to a new level. This was the best sounding combo of all. Sadly, this was also the most expensive. 😢

Best combo with no reference clock: sNH-10G > Cu > modded Buffalo> SFP > PF-Buffalo> Cu > Extreme

The air and resolution of the sNH-10G balanced nicely with the density and saturation of the two Buffaloes, producing a result similar to, but not quite as good as combo 1. Another way of thinking about this is that the Pink Faun OCXO mod on the Buffalo does not deliver quite the refinement that the REF10 SE120 reference clock brings, especially when applied to the eR/SOtM combo.

My combo going forward: eR (ref clocked) > Cu > modded Buffalo> SFP > sNH-10G (ref clocked)> Cu > Extreme

Since @Nenon really needed his PF-Buffalo back (can't blame him - it is so good!), this is what my new chain looks like. The TLS falls off, and the modded-Buffalo gets added, for about the cost of what I paid for the TLS. A real bargain.

Where do I go from here

As you can see, I have a very good sounding network chain, but it leaves me no closer to my goal of eliminating (or at least reducing) spaghetti, and of weaning myself off of the REF10 SE120. I'll be the first to admit that this collection of switches + PSU + clock is insanely out of whack in terms of cost! And even then, there is still an SQ gap between local and streaming sources.

Due to this, my thinking has shifted on the value of spending a lot on network tweaks. The network question is really two separate issues:

Does the network degrade local playback, and how to fix it?

With the Extreme, I feel I am already at a very good place here.

The delta improvement of disconnecting the network is very small, barely noticeable.

For best performance, I can always use HQP for playback, and disconnect the network.

So this is a SOLVED problem in my case, and for many others.

How to achieve the same SQ with Qobuz/Tidal as local files?

We've all been chasing this dream for years. Sometimes I've appeared to have closed the gap, only to find an advance in local playback that widened the gap again.

I've now arrived at a place where I feel this is not a realistic goal, and to spend insane amounts on network tweaks is not a good use of money.

I now accept Qobuz/Tidal as lower SQ sources, to explore and discover new music. If I love an album to want to listen to repeatedly, then it has to be purchased and placed in local storage.

Even if I buy 100 albums a year at $20/album, it's a better investment than buying a $2000 switch.

I haven't made any firm decisions. One of the things I'm waiting to see is if Emile's forthcoming switch (see this post, and follow ons) can yield the kind of simplicity I crave. Depending on the way things evolve, I will sooner or later put my REF10 SE120 on the market. If you might be interested, but can wait, drop me a PM, so I know to contact you when the time comes. On the other hand, I am never going to sell my SR7MR3DRXL, so don't even ask.

Very interesting read @austinpop! Thank you.

I was hoping you would add some experiences with the Fiber NIC. Have you considered going this route?

Also, have you installed the JCAT Net Femto card in the extreme yet?

Cheers

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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