A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[dminches]

8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

I seriously hope the Extreme is the beginning of a truly well thought out and executed music server platform that can be followed by other companies in the future. The engineering,. attention to detail and design of the server is what the future should hold as a standard. 

 

Most of us don't have the means to build something of such high quality but we all try in what ways we can. If more companies learn from Taiko, innovating, improving, generating competition and mass producing we should begin to see more devices like this in the future. Of course we can always continue to build our own or tweak. 

 

I really don't see that happening.  There are reasons why the Extreme costs $25k, including Taiko's attention to detail and all the time they devote to continual maintenance and updating.  The machine is a work of art.  I doubt any other company will be able to even come close.  And once you get to a lower price point the customer expectations are very different.

[RickyV]

I am wondering about Rajiv’s upcoming review of the HSA1, SR1 combo paired with the Dave and the Extreme that must be absolutely phenomenal. I wonder if you have to have cat or dog hearing to keep up with that speed.

Has it been done before an Extreme and a SR1 in the same system? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, RickyV said:

I am wondering about Rajiv’s upcoming review of the HSA1, SR1 combo paired with the Dave and the Extreme that must be absolutely phenomenal. I wonder if you have to have cat or dog hearing to keep up with that speed.

Has it been done before an Extreme and a SR1 in the same system? 

Rajiv will have the newly announced HSA-1b amp from RAAL-requisite. 

[RickyV]

19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Rajiv will have the newly announced HSA-1b amp from RAAL-requisite. 

Do you know what’s the difference between the HSA-1A and B amp?

And do you have an idea when the amp is delivered for review?

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Do you know what’s the difference between the HSA-1A and B amp?

And do you have an idea when the amp is delivered for review?

Not sure of specific differences other than what's shown in these images. Price goes from $3,900 to $4,500 as well.

 

[Johnseye]

3 hours ago, dminches said:

 

I really don't see that happening.  There are reasons why the Extreme costs $25k, including Taiko's attention to detail and all the time they devote to continual maintenance and updating.  The machine is a work of art.  I doubt any other company will be able to even come close.  And once you get to a lower price point the customer expectations are very different.

 

Probably the main, if not only reason this wouldn't happen is that the majority of the population doesn't care that much about SQ.  Look how long MP3 lasted.  Only recently have we started to see lossless streaming services and even the mainstream services like Spotify, Apple, Google Music, etc do not offer a quality comparable to Tidal or Qobuz...yet.

 

That could be an indicator of how long things take.  What helped facilitate high quality/frequency streaming was the increased availability of low cost bandwidth.  Many of the parts in the Extreme are commercially available.  There are certain components, including the power supply which are custom.  However, I don't see why any of it can not be duplicated by a company with the means.

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Many of the parts in the Extreme are commercially available.  There are certain components, including the power supply which are custom.  However, I don't see why any of it can not be duplicated by a company with the means.

 

It is not about the availability of parts. It is about the genius to put the right parts into the right composition. It is about excellent hearing and excellent technical understanding. I do not see this coming from another manufacturer.

 

Matt

[cat6man]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

It is not about the availability of parts. It is about the genius to put the right parts into the right composition. It is about excellent hearing and excellent technical understanding. I do not see this coming from another manufacturer.

 

Matt

 

exactly!

 

how the parts are chosen, put together and optimized is where the magic lies.

that is why they are building their own switch, so they can control and jointly optimize the buffering and transmission of data from the switch to the extreme.  this is serious engineering, not cookbook putting together pieces of h/w

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

I do not see this coming from another manufacturer.

 

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Competition is a wonderful force, and success spurs innovation. It's only a matter of time. 

 

One of my main reasons for picking the Extreme was because Emile, unlike most (note: I didn't say all) commercial server vendors, was pursuing an approach that matched our DIY findings. This is my point about why I was pursuing DIY and spaghetti. To achieve what I couldn't buy as a finished product.

 

What findings? That even for bit-perfect playback, "massive" SQ improvements occur with increasing CPU speed, cache size, and # of cores. And by taking it to, um, an Extreme with 2 server-class Xeon CPUs with large L1/L2/L3 caches and 10 cores/CPU, Emile's SQ results validate our DIY findings in spades!

 

Of course, the devil is in the details. Building PSUs of high enough quality that can deliver that amount of current is one of the big challenges. And Emile's incredible tuning and voicing efforts are hard to quantify in value, but essential to the end result.

 

Can this be approached by DIY efforts like @Nenon 's? Probably not, as he would readily admit. But can you get respectably close? I suspect yes. The thing to note of course is that sourcing PSUs capable of this high current demand are not easy to find. I hope Paul Hynes and Sean Jacobs have some new products in the wings for this.

[Summit]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

Do you know what’s the difference between the HSA-1A and B amp?

 

 

With the HSA-1A you can only use one type of headphone, the RAAL-requisite. With HSA-1B you can use the amp with both the RAAL-requisite and other type of headphones. That's the only difference.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

I am wondering about Rajiv’s upcoming review of the HSA1, SR1 combo paired with the Dave and the Extreme that must be absolutely phenomenal. I wonder if you have to have cat or dog hearing to keep up with that speed.

 

Hah, I would hope not!

 

Quote

Has it been done before an Extreme and a SR1 in the same system? 

 

Not that I'm aware!

 

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

Do you know what’s the difference between the HSA-1A and B amp?

 

Not yet, but RAAL have promised to share these requisite details with me for the review.

 

Quote

And do you have an idea when the amp is delivered for review?

 

EDIT: RAAL soon.

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Summit said:

 

With the HSA-1A you can only use one type of headphone, the RAAL-requisite. With HSA-1B you can use the amp with both the RAAL-requisite and other type of headphones. That's the only difference.

 

Yes, my unit will be configured with one ribbon output and one conventional 4-pin XLR output.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

It is not about the availability of parts. It is about the genius to put the right parts into the right composition. It is about excellent hearing and excellent technical understanding. I do not see this coming from another manufacturer.

 

Matt

 

1 hour ago, cat6man said:

 

exactly!

 

how the parts are chosen, put together and optimized is where the magic lies.

that is why they are building their own switch, so they can control and jointly optimize the buffering and transmission of data from the switch to the extreme.  this is serious engineering, not cookbook putting together pieces of h/w

 

Not to diminish Emile's achievements, but if he can do it, so can someone else. And if there's money to be made someone will sell it.  Just look at the wide variety of DACs available today as a comparison not to mention older tech components like amps, speakers and headphones.  At one point those things didn't exist.  This isn't magic.  Have hope.

[ASRMichael]

7 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Not to diminish Emile's achievements, but if he can do it, so can someone else. And if there's money to be made someone will sell it.  Just look at the wide variety of DACs available today as a comparison not to mention older tech components like amps, speakers and headphones.  At one point those things didn't exist.  This isn't magic.  Have hope.

Well said, the Extreme is the Ford model T, taking things to a new standard. History tells the rest....

[Nenon]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Can this be approached by DIY efforts like @Nenon 's? Probably not, as he would readily admit. But can you get respectably close? I suspect yes. The thing to note of course is that sourcing PSUs capable of this high current demand are not easy to find. I hope Paul Hynes and Sean Jacobs have some new products in the wings for this.

 

I have a lot of catching up to do reading and answering questions on AS. People have been asking me in my DIY thread about my dual Xeon server, and I will post more there when I get a chance. Have been a bit busy lately as I am trying to complete many outstanding projects before going on vacation. 

 

First, congratulations to @austinpop for the Extreme. We keep in touch outside of the forum, and I was really looking forward to his initial impressions. I am sure he is being modest and they are more overwhelming than he is describing. But as a part time reviewer he has to measure his words carefully and suppress some impulsive emotions.

 

I wanted to comment on this from DIY perspective. 

Can we build a DIY extreme? No, we cannot. But we can learn a lot from it. 

We have no resources to design and build a chassis like the Extreme. We cannot get the custom RAM the Extreme is using. I had Apacer build me custom RAM, which is really good, but it does not have the refresh rate properties or the lower consumption of the Extreme. As a result my 12 x 4GB RAM chips consume much more power. Most of us don't have access to CNC machines that can do the tankwood platforms on the Extreme. And there are many other details on the Extreme that you can't even see from the pictures.

 

Let me share part of my experience. 

I bought the motherboard and CPUs the Extreme uses. Put it all together with Noctua coolers and two cheap RDIMM modules just to make sure it's working. Installed Euphony. The first thing that I noticed was how open the midrange was. Overall it did not sound as good as my latest DIY server (at the time) but there was some good potential. 

 

I found a way to passively cool the CPUs (not an easy task) since there is no commercial solution I could use, added my custom Apacer RAM, JCAT XE USB card, JCAT NIC, etc. I have been working with Sean Jacobs on a cost no object high current LPS that has no trouble powering up the two 85W TDP CPUs with plenty of headroom left. The cost of this multi-rail LPS is more than $7,000 given the GBP to USD exchange rate, and I believe I have the only one in existence (it's based on his DC4 design). Wired everything with my favorite Mundorf silver/gold wire (not cheap at all!), which makes a big difference everywhere I try it (DC applications).  I installed Euphony on an Optane card and tweaked everything to the best of my abilities.

 

How did it sound? Really really good. Better than my best DIY server but not night and day difference. Actually my latest build with PinkFaun ultraOCXO clocks could compete in some areas... 

This is when I switched from Euphony to Windows LTSC and Process Lasso. This gave me the opportunity to do much more granular tweaking and to take advantage of the two CPUs. Euphony is a closed OS and without root access I cannot have the level of granularity I need. The idea was to remove any unnecessary processes, have only what's absolutely necessary running, and start isolating and prioritizing the processes to their own cores/CPU. Anything audio related goes on one CPU, everything else on the other. It's essentially similar to implementing a server/streamer solution running on a dual CPU server instead on two boxes. What a difference that made! It really turned the knob to 11.

But don't take this the wrong way. I am not saying Windows is better than Euphony. On any of my previous builds Euphony would be my preference. The takeaway from this was that the interaction between the software and hardware is as important as anything else. With the right software settings and the best hardware things really changed. BTW, the Extreme is tweaked to such a perfection that even the smallest change can ruin the balance Emile has achieved. I experience similar behaviour with my server now.

 

I'll make a confession - this is far better than my best DIY server builds. It's not just better. It is so much better, that for now I have no desire to continue building servers. That's why you may have noticed that I have been more focused on network tweaks and power supplies lately. There are some really cool ideas in my head but more on them some other time. I have no idea how close my server is to the Extreme in terms of sonics, but this is the best sound I have ever had in my system. I am sure the power supply I am using plays a big role, but so do the components Emile picked, the software tweaks and everything combined together. It's interesting that I do hear pretty much everything Extreme users are reporting in my system too with the exception of some effects that I think are related to the power supply. For example restarting my server does not take a week to settle back to its best. 

 

There are still some quite a few fundamental differences between my server and the Extreme. I prefer the JCAT USB XE compared to the motherboard USB output. That's not exactly what Extreme users have reported. But Taiko is developing their own USB card. I also have a slight preference towards using the JCAT Net Femto over the motherboard NIC, but the gap is so small that now that the JCAT is temporarily out of my server and I can't tell I am missing anything, especially with the Buffalo switch with ultraOCXO I am using now. I also made an experiment with the wire Taiko uses compared to my favorite Mundorf silver/gold, and the silver/gold turned out to be much better. But again this is part of the voicing and perfecting a product. I know Emile is very particular on the wire he uses, and I have no doubts it's the best for the Extreme. It just does not work as good as the silver/gold with my power supply. BTW, please don't ask me to share any details I know about the Extreme. I really like to explore what engineers have done. And while I am happy to share any of my own experiments and discoveries, I don't think it would be fair to the people who have spent so much R&D to bring their product to the market. I am grateful that Emile has shared so much publicly already. 

 

Okay, did I confuse you enough? Am I saying that we can build a DIY server of that level or not? 

One of the main points I was trying to make is how import the software settings on a server like that are. They turned the same hardware from a little better than my DIY servers (and not in all areas) to hands down the best I have heard and giving up server building. 

If you are up to the challenge, go for it. Emile has raised the bar so high that it's difficult to catch. But be prepared to spend a lot of time.

 

P.S. @The Computer Audiophile - that's the server I brought to Minneapolis (as well as my latest DIY server) during my trip in the beginning of May and offered to leave it with you for the weekend if interested, but perhaps you missed my private message back then. In a way I am glad you did not listen to it, because it might have had impact on the CAPS :). 

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, Nenon said:

P.S. @The Computer Audiophile - that's the server I brought to Minneapolis (as well as my latest DIY server) during my trip in the beginning of May and offered to leave it with you for the weekend if interested, but perhaps you missed my private message back then. In a way I am glad you did not listen to it, because it might have had impact on the CAPS :). 

Hi Nenon, sorry for not getting back to you, but times were quite crazy and I was in no position to accept your kind offer. Perhaps there will be another time :~)

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Nenon said:

he has to measure his words carefully and suppress some impulsive emotions.

 

Very true!  Not because I have to — it's just in my nature to be circumspect until I've had enough time to be sure of what I'm hearing over lots of music and listening sessions.

[hols]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:54 AM, austinpop said:

 

Yes, I realized that, and I didn't want to imply I would disappear! I still enjoy tweaking, and the network path is still an endless pit of optimization. I am realistic enough to know the journey is never over. As I mentioned in my post last night, the only area where I do NOT enjoy tweaking (other than soldering, a skill I mastered only briefly in college and quickly lost!) is messing with server builds, mobos, internal cabling, swapping parts, and the worst of all - those Molex connectors! My heart is always in my mouth every time I wrestle with the 8-pin EPS or 24-pin ATX connectors.  There's no logic to this — I am after all a computer engineer! Still, I know myself well enough to know which things I like to do for fun (swap components, external cables, PSUs, DDCs, etc) and which I don't (server builds). 

 

So rest assured — I'm not going anywhere! I will still be around, and contributing whenever I have something meaningful to share. I'm also super excited to see folks like @Nenon and others contributing their knowledge and experimentation here!

Congratulations Rajiv. I am sure you won't disappear. Just would like to share my own experience. After getting the extreme I have been very happy for about two months as if I am on top of the world and enjoying music most of the time. Suddenly the Roon update brings you from your dreams back to reality. At that time I just don't want to listen to the extreme at all. Tried a lot of tweaks but still cannot get back the magic until about 2 months ago when Emile's efforts finally reverted the situation. During that period of bad sound I turned my interests to building servers and learning a lot from Nenon's thread and StreamFidelity's thread. I chose HDplex H5 fanless chassis, powerful CPUs 9900K and 10700K, Apacer ECC Ram, HDplex 800W DC-ATX, DIY 24pin and CPU cables and DIY linear power supply from some longtime audiophiles. Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme. Of course nobody knows what will happen when extreme brings up three new tweaks next week. Surely it is going to boost the SQ to yet another level. And we shall have to face new challenges? This is really exciting times for audiophiles. Cheers.

server.pdf

[Johnseye]

49 minutes ago, hols said:

Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme.

 

Thanks for the input Hols.  It's interesting to hear this from an Extreme owner.  It certainly helps keep reality in check.

 

[basillus]

52 minutes ago, hols said:

Congratulations Rajiv. I am sure you won't disappear. Just would like to share my own experience. After getting the extreme I have been very happy for about two months as if I am on top of the world and enjoying music most of the time. Suddenly the Roon update brings you from your dreams back to reality. At that time I just don't want to listen to the extreme at all. Tried a lot of tweaks but still cannot get back the magic until about 2 months ago when Emile's efforts finally reverted the situation. During that period of bad sound I turned my interests to building servers and learning a lot from Nenon's thread and StreamFidelity's thread. I chose HDplex H5 fanless chassis, powerful CPUs 9900K and 10700K, Apacer ECC Ram, HDplex 800W DC-ATX, DIY 24pin and CPU cables and DIY linear power supply from some longtime audiophiles. Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme. Of course nobody knows what will happen when extreme brings up three new tweaks next week. Surely it is going to boost the SQ to yet another level. And we shall have to face new challenges? This is really exciting times for audiophiles. Cheers.

server.pdf 222.98 kB · 18 downloads

Hi, it would not be better in your server build  to rotate the hdplex 800w

180 degrees so that both atx are closest to each other?

[dminches]

16 minutes ago, basillus said:

Hi, it would not be better in your server build  to rotate the hdplex 800w

180 degrees so that both atx are closest to each other?

 

Actually no.  Even the shortest cable is too long when the 2 24 pin connectors are adjacent.   

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, hols said:

This is really exciting times for audiophiles

 

So true! When I got my Extreme, I spent more time studying it than any other piece of hardware since I got my NeXT '030 Cube WAY back in the day.  I learned so much by studying the design decisions made by Emile and team, and I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface.  

 

There is as much (if not more) nuance in the configuration of the OS to match the hardware.  As we heard during the Great Disruption, even a small change on the software side could have a profound impact on SQ.  That cemented in my mind the criticality of synergy between SW/OS/HW to get optimum results from a digital chain.

 

Emile and team's huge contribution is advancing the state of the art and showing what is possible.  There are many paths up that mountain.  Once folks know something is achievable, we will find ways to figure out how to get there, and along the way figure out what attributes/factors really matter the most.  

[cat6man]

3 hours ago, hols said:

Congratulations Rajiv. I am sure you won't disappear. Just would like to share my own experience. After getting the extreme I have been very happy for about two months as if I am on top of the world and enjoying music most of the time. Suddenly the Roon update brings you from your dreams back to reality. At that time I just don't want to listen to the extreme at all. Tried a lot of tweaks but still cannot get back the magic until about 2 months ago when Emile's efforts finally reverted the situation. During that period of bad sound I turned my interests to building servers and learning a lot from Nenon's thread and StreamFidelity's thread. I chose HDplex H5 fanless chassis, powerful CPUs 9900K and 10700K, Apacer ECC Ram, HDplex 800W DC-ATX, DIY 24pin and CPU cables and DIY linear power supply from some longtime audiophiles. Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme. Of course nobody knows what will happen when extreme brings up three new tweaks next week. Surely it is going to boost the SQ to yet another level. And we shall have to face new challenges? This is really exciting times for audiophiles. Cheers.

server.pdf 222.98 kB · 49 downloads

 

very exciting Hols.

can you elaborate on the non-standardly-available parts of your extreme matching build?

specifically:

1.  the DIY linear power supply and where/how it is used in your design

2.  the DIY 24pin and CPU cables

3.  which Linux OS and could you share details of the improvements to the OS

4.  lastly, how did the final cost compare with an extreme?

 

thanks.  i think this is the first time i've seen a report of kit that matches the SQ of the extreme.  i have stayed away from DIY,  thinking it unlikely that the SQ would be in the extreme's league.

 

i'd be happy getting within shouting distance

so i may have to rethink skilling the DIY route if the road is clearly mapped out.

great work

[matthias]

24 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

very exciting Hols.

can you elaborate on the non-standardly-available parts of your extreme matching build?

specifically:

1.  the DIY linear power supply and where/how it is used in your design

2.  the DIY 24pin and CPU cables

3.  which Linux OS and could you share details of the improvements to the OS

4.  lastly, how did the final cost compare with an extreme?

 

thanks.  i think this is the first time i've seen a report of kit that matches the SQ of the extreme.  i have stayed away from DIY,  thinking it unlikely that the SQ would be in the extreme's league.

 

i'd be happy getting within shouting distance

so i may have to rethink skilling the DIY route if the road is clearly mapped out.

great work

 

AFAIK, hols prefers a CPU which is optimised for HQPlayer and a NAA configuration.

 

Matt

 

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, hols said:

Congratulations Rajiv. I am sure you won't disappear. Just would like to share my own experience. After getting the extreme I have been very happy for about two months as if I am on top of the world and enjoying music most of the time. Suddenly the Roon update brings you from your dreams back to reality. At that time I just don't want to listen to the extreme at all. Tried a lot of tweaks but still cannot get back the magic until about 2 months ago when Emile's efforts finally reverted the situation. During that period of bad sound I turned my interests to building servers and learning a lot from Nenon's thread and StreamFidelity's thread. I chose HDplex H5 fanless chassis, powerful CPUs 9900K and 10700K, Apacer ECC Ram, HDplex 800W DC-ATX, DIY 24pin and CPU cables and DIY linear power supply from some longtime audiophiles. Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme. Of course nobody knows what will happen when extreme brings up three new tweaks next week. Surely it is going to boost the SQ to yet another level. And we shall have to face new challenges? This is really exciting times for audiophiles. Cheers.

server.pdf 222.98 kB · 76 downloads

 

This is what I love about this thread! Thanks for your impressions @hols