A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[bodiebill]

So I think we agree a really good and powerful LPS for a heavy lifting server is quite a challenge. But what about devices that draw only very modest current (say up to 2A)? I see that some member's use f.i. multiple Paul Hynes LPS'es for this. Very expensive. For my JCAT net card FEMTO and my ISO Regen I use cheap Chinese LPSU's (Studer900, € 40) followed by either a LDOVR or MPAudio box that converts the output to a lower voltage using LT3045's. Or alternatively Chinese battery powered LPSU with 4 LT3045's, good for 5V and 2A.

As a rule, the larger the voltage difference, the lower the ripple/noise, so the better the SQ. Also putting two LT3045 units in series further improves the result (i.e. 9V => 7V => 5V).

To be precise:

Studer900 6V => MPAudio DLS-HPULN => 5V => JCAT net card FEMTO or

Chinese battery powered LPSU => 5V => JCAT net card FEMTO

Studer900 9V => LDOVR DXP-1A5DSC => 7.1V => ISO Regen

See pics.

The results are so good (and I compared quite a few options) that I have not been tempted yet to try expensive LPSU's for this.

Anyone else here tried something similar?

[mourip]

11 hours ago, austinpop said:

I started to write about how I had seesawed at least twice between distributed and standalone topologies, then thought it would be fun to create a chronology of my journey. Maybe this will become the seed of an article at some point. But anyway, for your amusement and edification, here is a chronology of my 10-year journey in computer audio streaming.

 

Note: for simplicity, I focused on topology, so this doesn't address all the other improvements and tweaks to get better SQ.

 

Keep in mind that there is an implied increase in SQ as you go from top to bottom. This core question is what has driven me throughout: what's the next step to better SQ? I started my journey firmly believing in the distributed model being superior. Over time, I learned to shed my dogmas, and just follow my ears.

 

Time Period	Music Storage	Music Server (HW/SW)	Music Endpoint (HW/SW)	Standalone Player (HW/SW)	Control (HW/SW)
2010-2015	Synology NAS	Synology NAS/LMS	Squeezebox Touch		IOS/iPeng
2016-2017	Synology NAS	Synology NAS/MinimServer	Aries Mini/Lightning		iOS/Lighning DS
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	Aries Mini/Roon		iOS/Roon
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	sMS-200/Roon		iOS/Roon
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	SOtM trifecta (switch, sMS, tX)/Roon		iOS/Roon
2018	Local on SE			ZENith SE/Roon, Roon+SL	iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/Euphony OS, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/Euphony OS, StylusEP		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon+SL	iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon+StylusEP	iOS/Roon
2019-2020	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Stylus	iOS/Stylus
2020	Synology NAS			i7-8700K/Euphony OS, Stylus	iOS/Stylus

Glossary:

 

Desktop: Vanilla Dell Desktop system

AL: AudioLinux

SL: Squeezelite

W10: Windows 10

LMS: Logitech Media Server

i7-xxxx: custom servers using xxxx processor

 

This is excellent, and as you said, goes against some commonly help beliefs. It is often hard to go against the current here and just follow your ears. The most impossible choice for me is to just say "Wow. This can't get any better!" ...and then just listen to music 🙂

 

One thing that really stands out is that you have nearly always stayed with a NAS for storage. Any ideas why this would consistently sound better than a local drive? Probably the only thing that I have never tried was a single box plus NAS setup.

 

Great post...

 

 

[Gavin1977]

On 4/21/2020 at 8:01 AM, austinpop said:

This reinforces to me that systems with more powerful CPUs, with more cores, and bigger caches DO sound better, EVEN though the CPU utilization with the non-upsampling workloads of Stylus or Roon is vanishingly small. The challenge with such systems of course, as Nenon is detailing in his excellent DIY server thread, is getting a power supply that is both outstanding quality AND high-current.

 

Glad you highlighted this point as it's something I've been interested in for a while... the logic behind higher core speed and larger cache I get.  But the technical reason for going for a huge number of cores aludes me as Euphony or Gentoo Player would never use that many cores.

 

I would also like to hear feedback on sound differences between a single many core processor such as a Xeon or Epyc, vs the dual processor setup with Nenon is building.

[dminches]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

One thing that really stands out is that you have nearly always stayed with a NAS for storage. Any ideas why this would consistently sound better than a local drive? Probably the only thing that I have never tried was a single box plus NAS setup.

 

 

I have been trying to figure this out for myself as well since I have always had my music on a NAS.  I have an 8 TB library.  That would require a standard mechanical drive.  Would that be quieter than a NAS given the HD vibrations and the fact that the SATA controller attaches to the PCH while my network card goes directly to the CPU (I think)?

[Johnseye]

16 hours ago, adamaley said:

Not really. Mainly because it's fanless and, therefore, quiet. I've also seen it mentioned here in the forums. I'm basically only using it to tide me over while I wait for the SJ DC4. 

 

Is this the PSU you were referring to?

 

Seasonic PRIME-FANLESS-TX-700

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, mourip said:

One thing that really stands out is that you have nearly always stayed with a NAS for storage. Any ideas why this would consistently sound better than a local drive? Probably the only thing that I have never tried was a single box plus NAS setup.

 

Yes, that is true. This is an area where I admit I've done less direct experimentation, and just gone with the experience of others I trust.

• I know Roy had found NVMe SSDs to sound harsh, so I avoided that path.
• I know some prefer HDD with clean PSU rails for both the drive and the data, while others have used SATA SSDs, with filters like the SOtM, again with clean PSU rails
• When I started down the NUC/AL path, I did experiment with comparing the SQ of files stored on NAS vs. local Optane vs. RAM disk. Indeed, local Optane sounded better, but Optane just does not have the capacity I need. The more interesting result was that RAM disk sounded the best of all.
• Ultimately, this is what has persuaded me to stick with NAS:
  • Due to my investment and care in the network switches preceding the server, I am attenuating (I'd be the last to claim fully isolating!) the noise impact of the upstream NAS
  • I don't have to devote precious LPS rails to power local drives
  • With the Stylus player and Euphony OS, using the option to pre-buffer the music, I am getting the benefit of RAM disk quality during playback. 
  • To me, this is the best of all worlds.

However, like with most things, I would not be surprised if there is more SQ to be had in this area.

 

4 hours ago, mourip said:

Great post...

 

Thanks! I figured laying it out as a chronology would be useful.

[cool_chris]

On 3/18/2020 at 6:02 AM, zettelsm said:

CORRECTION (since I can't edit this post now):

 

The correct feed configuration from LAN to Extreme:

 

DSL modem > copper jumper (Sablon ethernet cable) > Startech FMC/Startech SFP with -10dB attenuator > fiber > Startec SFP with -10dB attenuator/Extreme

 

Obviously, mixing a Planet Tech SFP (1310nm) on one end and a Startech SFP (1550nm) on the other end would not have worked.

 

Also, in musical test track 3. above, it is Mozart's Piano Concerto 20 and not 2.

 

Sorry for the errors.

 

Steve Z

Steve

I agree with everything you tested and I ended of getting the similar setup to "your optimal scenario"

There is only one exception.

I WAS able to make the Startech SFP and Planet Tech SFP wokrk together.

The KEY is to use it in Sonore optical modules.

I was able to make it work BOTH ways. Startech to Planet AND Planet to Startech.

I was surprised tht it did work well with no isuues, BUT the sound is not as good as the PLanet to PLanet.

Startech SFP to Stratech SFP is also great but for the best systems only.

It works on my scenario with much , much better focuse and more control.

 

 

[adamaley]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Is this the PSU you were referring to?

 

Seasonic PRIME-FANLESS-TX-700

 

Sorry, allow me to correct myself. I got the Prime Titanium 750W, but it is not fanless. It has a hybrid mode, that keeps the fan off until it hits somewhere close to 70% of a temperature threshold. I was initially going to go with the full fanless option but decided against it because once the DC4 LPS arrives, I would like to be able to replace the 7 year old noisy Corsair in my workstation where I do a bit of gaming with the Seasonic.

If this was to have been a permanent power solution for my build, I would have gone completely fanless. Apologies for the confusion.

 

In the attached image you can see the hybrid switch for the power supply.

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, cool_chris said:

I WAS able to make the Startech SFP and Planet Tech SFP wokrk together.

The KEY is to use it in Sonore optical modules.

I was able to make it work BOTH ways. Startech to Planet AND Planet to Startech.

I was surprised tht it did work well with no isuues, BUT the sound is not as good as the PLanet to PLanet.

Startech SFP to Stratech SFP is also great but for the best systems only.

It works on my scenario with much , much better focuse and more control.

 

 

 

To clarify - you had success getting SFPs operating at two different optical wavelengths to play nice together?  And you prefer it that way?

[beautiful music]

6 hours ago, adamaley said:

 

Sorry, allow me to correct myself. I got the Prime Titanium 750W, but it is not fanless. It has a hybrid mode, that keeps the fan off until it hits somewhere close to 70% of a temperature threshold. I was initially going to go with the full fanless option but decided against it because once the DC4 LPS arrives, I would like to be able to replace the 7 year old noisy Corsair in my workstation where I do a bit of gaming with the Seasonic.

If this was to have been a permanent power solution for my build, I would have gone completely fanless. Apologies for the confusion.

 

In the attached image you can see the hybrid switch for the power supply.

 

Please share your thoughts and opinion of DC4 when it arrived.

 

[adamaley]

31 minutes ago, beautiful music said:

 

Please share your thoughts and opinion of DC4 when it arrived.

 

Will do.

[adamaley]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:52 AM, bodiebill said:

 

No, for the server I only use the Seasonic. This is a regular (nonlinear) power supply, but high quality with low ripple and voltage variance.

I wouldn't know how to let the Seasonic power the HDPlex as the latter needs 19V and the Seasonic only delivers 12V and downwards. 

 

 

For SQ I slightly preferred the Seasonic but the difference was hardly noticeable -- perhaps even imaginary. What I do know is that I did not like the extreme heat of the 200W HDPlex.

 

This must be what drew me to the Seasonic as a decent regular ATX supply.

[kelvinwsy]

I had to return the previous generation Hdplex 400watt LPSU. Even driving the GPU with a separate ATX PSU just using it for the CPU 6700k and the MB , it ran hot and the SQ was restrained.. Larry gives great customer service and I shipped it to another customer of his for a complete refund!

Now I use the hybrid Corsair RM 550x (fan still until 65% load).. I offloaded my SSD's and USB pcie card to separate LPSU's the RM550 is silent except when HQPlayer does the initial upsampling then goes silent!

The RM550x peak 12v current rating is 45amp!!

SQ is unrestrained!

I find Linear PSU for ATX application underpowered! Esp for upsampling high TDW CPU ATX systems! Just does not work!

The RM550x is 5mv and I use Elfidelity MB , RAM , Fan, SSD Filters .. Works Great for me!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[austinpop]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:01 AM, austinpop said:

I still have a few experiments I want to do with my 8700T server, but after that I'll be done with it, so if anyone has an interest in buying it, PM me. Just know you'll need to separately buy a PSU, or use an existing one.

 

I'm done with all my experiments, so this 8700T server is up for sale in the Buy/Sell section. PM me if interested.

[ASRMichael]

@austinpop New purchase coming? 

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

@austinpop New purchase coming? 

Yes, as mentioned in this post.  

[ASRMichael]

Here’s a question. Is it CPU base frequency that is given improvement in SQ or amount of actual cores/threads! Or both?

[dctom]

On 4/22/2020 at 5:47 PM, austinpop said:

 

Yes, that is true. This is an area where I admit I've done less direct experimentation, and just gone with the experience of others I trust.

• I know Roy had found NVMe SSDs to sound harsh, so I avoided that path.
• I know some prefer HDD with clean PSU rails for both the drive and the data, while others have used SATA SSDs, with filters like the SOtM, again with clean PSU rails
• When I started down the NUC/AL path, I did experiment with comparing the SQ of files stored on NAS vs. local Optane vs. RAM disk. Indeed, local Optane sounded better, but Optane just does not have the capacity I need. The more interesting result was that RAM disk sounded the best of all.
• Ultimately, this is what has persuaded me to stick with NAS:
  • Due to my investment and care in the network switches preceding the server, I am attenuating (I'd be the last to claim fully isolating!) the noise impact of the upstream NAS
  • I don't have to devote precious LPS rails to power local drives
  • With the Stylus player and Euphony OS, using the option to pre-buffer the music, I am getting the benefit of RAM disk quality during playback. 
  • To me, this is the best of all worlds.

However, like with most things, I would not be surprised if there is more SQ to be had in this area.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I decided to try a NVMe,  for music storage only, in one of the M2 slots on my Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX/ac server. In the past I had  used an external USB drive  then  more recently a Synology Nas. My library just fits onto a 2Tb NVMe, I run AL in ram root and disconnect the OS ssd after start up.

In this configuration the NVMe sounds better than the NAS, no issues with harshness and I have the added bonus of very fast control over my play lists in HQP.

I should also add  I run a server to NUC end point set up, via an etherRegen.

Guess this just goes to show there are no really hard and fast rules in this game, other than the requirement of high quality LPSs.

 

 

 

[Dev]

JCAT Reference LAN Gold

 

I have been using the JCAT Reference for two week, so hopefully it is well broken in by now. Here is my subjective opinion:

 

A bit of background on my setup - I have the ER, powered by PH SR4, for over a month now. Its connected to Ubiquity fiber which further connects to my wifi router. One port on A side is connected to NAS (home brew running AudioLinux) powered by Mojo-audio Illuminati3. The B side is connected to NUCi7 running Euphony. So far I have been using cheap $10 Mono price CAT8 to connect. The JCAT Signature at 1000 EUR is too rich for my blood and hence I settled in for its lesser brother the JCAT Reference LAN Gold.

 

Needless to say, the ER has brought tremendous improvement to my previous setup which was using Wifi. However, as great as ER is, there was something off that kept me unsettling. I couldn't figure out what was it, neither I could lay my fingers on until I replaced the Monoprice CAT8 with JCAT Reference LAN Gold. It was an eye-opener from the first song I played that I realized how unnatural the tones was previously. The cheap cable had a metallic tone, especially to human voices. The JCAT completely removed it - music is fuller, bigger and natural is what I felt. In other words, if you have a good enough resolving system, a $10 cable will actually sound like a $10 cable after you have replaced it with a better one. I cannot explain why a 1M cable would have such a tremendous effect - the improvements in my system were much bigger than what ER bought to the table. However, both together brings a great synergy in my setup.

 

Marcin says that the Reference is 65% of the Signature which is about twice the price. I can only speculate how Signature can only take things further up the chain.

 

The Reference Gold at 600 EUR is not cheap by any stretch but I am glad that I took the plunge. For those, like me, who are not willing to spend and justify over a 1000 bucks for an Ethernet cable, the Reference takes the prime seat but if you can swing it, my guess is you will be up for a treat.

 

Don't skimp with cheap Ethernet cables and you will be glad (as I am) that you did.

 

[auricgoldfinger]

8 minutes ago, Dev said:

JCAT Reference LAN Gold

 

I have been using the JCAT Reference for two week, so hopefully it is well broken in by now. Here is my subjective opinion:

 

A bit of background on my setup - I have the ER, powered by PH SR4, for over a month now. Its connected to Ubiquity fiber which further connects to my wifi router. One port on A side is connected to NAS (home brew running AudioLinux) powered by Mojo-audio Illuminati3. The B side is connected to NUCi7 running Euphony. So far I have been using cheap $10 Mono price CAT8 to connect. The JCAT Signature at 1000 EUR is too rich for my blood and hence I settled in for its lesser brother the JCAT Reference LAN Gold.

 

Needless to say, the ER has brought tremendous improvement to my previous setup which was using Wifi. However, as great as ER is, there was something off that kept me unsettling. I couldn't figure out what was it, neither I could lay my fingers on until I replaced the Monoprice CAT8 with JCAT Reference LAN Gold. It was an eye-opener from the first song I played that I realized how unnatural the tones was previously. The cheap cable had a metallic tone, especially to human voices. The JCAT completely removed it - music is fuller, bigger and natural is what I felt. In other words, if you have a good enough resolving system, a $10 cable will actually sound like a $10 cable after you have replaced it with a better one. I cannot explain why a 1M cable would have such a tremendous effect - the improvements in my system were much bigger than what ER bought to the table. However, both together brings a great synergy in my setup.

 

Marcin says that the Reference is 65% of the Signature which is about twice the price. I can only speculate how Signature can only take things further up the chain.

 

The Reference Gold at 600 EUR is not cheap by any stretch but I am glad that I took the plunge. For those, like me, who are not willing to spend and justify over a 1000 bucks for an Ethernet cable, the Reference takes the prime seat but if you can swing it, my guess is you will be up for a treat.

 

Don't skimp with cheap Ethernet cables and you will be glad (as I am) that you did.

 

 

Off the main topic of your post, but I'm wondering if you've ever directly compared the SR4 to the Illuminati3.

[Dev]

17 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Off the main topic of your post, but I'm wondering if you've ever directly compared the SR4 to the Illuminati3.

 

My PH SR4 is 12v and the Illuminati3 is 19v. The NUC actually sounds better at 19v than 12v on the same quality power supply. So it would not be an apples to apples comparison but I do like the Illuminati3.

[drjimwillie]

Over on the “what’s best” “ Extreme” thread they’re talking about The latest Roon release making a detrimental impact on sound quality.

TA was able to fix this issue with some changes of the system. Do any of the extreme owners know if it was only changes to the Roon operating system? And if they saw what was done, can they share those changes here, please?

[Gavin1977]

Shame Mundorf stopped making these MPower supplies back in 2013... 30A of continuous low noise power.  Could build some seriously high powered servers with these.

 

I have no idea of their specs (ripple, noise floor, transient response etc....).  You will see that it uses a Mundorf HeadCap (I believe) - I was wondering if these could be added to ATX power rails to smooth the current...

 

 

 

 

 

[Nenon]

36 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

Shame Mundorf stopped making these MPower supplies back in 2013... 30A of continuous low noise power.  Could build some seriously high powered servers with these.

 

I have no idea of their specs (ripple, noise floor, transient response etc....).  You will see that it uses a Mundorf HeadCap (I believe) - I was wondering if these could be added to ATX power rails to smooth the current...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adding vibration treatment to the linear power supply feeding my computer is a nice improvements in my system. That makes me think that a power supply with a fan is not the best option for a well refined system. 

There are plenty of good linear power supplies out there. They are just not particularly good for audio. The Acopian power supplies for instance are built really good. Here is a 12V / 21A linear power supply that can be used to power up some quite demanding CPUs - https://www.acopian.com/store/productdetail.aspx?q=i346. I've seen it on eBay for around $50. It just does not sound as good as some of the well designed power supplies for Audio. I have tried quite a few industrial power supplies. And none of them comes even close.

[Gavin1977]

Indeed - fans are bad.  I have no idea if they only ramp up under higher loads in this MPower.

 

ATX power supplies sound rolled off in the treble to me.  I don’t know exactly what causes this, but I was wondering if really tight voltage regulation is the answer, which additional caps or a Mundorf HeadCap could help with...

 

Agreed on Acopian I’ve not progressed with these for that reason.