A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[dtossan]

8 hours ago, Nenon said:

My absolute favorite is the Mundorf 15.5 AWG Silver / Gold wire...

... sounded so much better [compared to the Ghent Neotech 7N Cu 16AWG JSSG360].

Hey Nenon, saw your original post back in july. Glad you remind us.

 

A rough est to make a 1 foot Mundorf Silver/Gold cable would be around USD 100, right.

That sounds like an amazing step up compared to a 1 foot Ghent Neotech 7N for US$79.

 

What other parts to buy to make a 1 foot JSSG360 version? Will PM you.

Denis

[Middy]

@Nenon

If you have any photos, when you have time. Would love too see what you did.

Thank you.

[elan120]

I also have very positive experience with 16AWG solid silver in JSSG360^3 configuration for several of the power supplies to various devices.  After reading all these DC cables, I am inspired to make some new cables for my server using Neotech 18AWG 7N wires in JSSG360 configuration instead of silver.  Once I have the 24ATX cable made, I will swap both out and see how much difference they make.

 

Here is a picture of the finished 8pin EPS cable I completed this afternoon:

[Nenon]

59 minutes ago, dtossan said:

Hey Nenon, saw your original post back in july. Glad you remind us.

 

A rough est to make a 1 foot Mundorf Silver/Gold cable would be around USD 100, right.

That sounds like an amazing step up compared to a 1 foot Ghent Neotech 7N for US$79.

 

What other parts to buy to make a 1 foot JSSG360 version? Will PM you.

Denis

 

I don't want to derail this thread with DIY cables, there are plenty of other threads on that, but for completeness, here is what you need for 1 foot cable:

 

Wire: https://www.partsconnexion.com/MUNDORF-72180.html - 2 feet

Cotton: https://www.partsconnexion.com/COTTUBE-72533.html - 2 feet

Whatever connectors you need, i.e. https://www.vhaudio.com/oyaide-dc.html

Techflex cable sleeving to decorate the cable: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#techflex - 1 foot + a little extra

And some heatshrink: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#heatshrink - 2 pieces to go over the connectors

I use WBT solder: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#solder - 1 foot is plenty

 

For the JSSG360 shielding, you would need some tinned copper braid. Plenty of options on that:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/tinned-copper-braid.html

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HGHQYM/

the 1/4'' should be fine for a two wires cable.

and some plumbers tape: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XCWQ4D2/

There is a lot of info how to do the shielding, please search the forum.

 

Making the cable:

Cut two wires to your preferred length.

Insert each wire in its own cotton sleeve.

Slightly twist the two wires together. BTW, I just realized I have not twisted mine. 

Insert the twisted wires in the first tinned copper braid.

Wrap the tinned copper braid with plumbers tape.

Insert in the second tinned copper braid.

Do the JSSG360 shielding - connect the first braid and the second braid on each side. 

Insert in the techflex cable sleeving.

Add heatshrink at both ends.

Solder the connectors (don't forget to insert the back part of the connector before soldering). 

Heat the heatshrink in place. 

 

Hope that helps. Please share your impressions if you try it. 

[tims]

56 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

I don't want to derail this thread with DIY cables, there are plenty of other threads on that, but for completeness, here is what you need for 1 foot cable:

 

Wire: https://www.partsconnexion.com/MUNDORF-72180.html - 2 feet

Cotton: https://www.partsconnexion.com/COTTUBE-72533.html - 2 feet

Whatever connectors you need, i.e. https://www.vhaudio.com/oyaide-dc.html

Techflex cable sleeving to decorate the cable: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#techflex - 1 foot + a little extra

And some heatshrink: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#heatshrink - 2 pieces to go over the connectors

I use WBT solder: https://www.vhaudio.com/heatshrink.html#solder - 1 foot is plenty

 

For the JSSG360 shielding, you would need some tinned copper braid. Plenty of options on that:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/tinned-copper-braid.html

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HGHQYM/

the 1/4'' should be fine for a two wires cable.

and some plumbers tape: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XCWQ4D2/

There is a lot of info how to do the shielding, please search the forum.

 

Making the cable:

Cut two wires to your preferred length.

Insert each wire in its own cotton sleeve.

Slightly twist the two wires together. BTW, I just realized I have not twisted mine. 

Insert the twisted wires in the first tinned copper braid.

Wrap the tinned copper braid with plumbers tape.

Insert in the second tinned copper braid.

Do the JSSG360 shielding - connect the first braid and the second braid on each side. 

Insert in the techflex cable sleeving.

Add heatshrink at both ends.

Solder the connectors (don't forget to insert the back part of the connector before soldering). 

Heat the heatshrink in place. 

 

Hope that helps. Please share your impressions if you try it. 

Found a much better deal for the same Mundorf hookup wire from Banzai Music (EU).  Shipping outside the EU saves 19% VAT with shipping not much more than domestic US shipping costs.  Works out to a 45% saving over the parts connexion prices if my math is correct. Only sold by the meter though but still a great deal.

 

https://www.banzaimusic.com/Mundorf-1-5mm-Yellow-GS-Wire.html

 

and the same wire (uncoated) is even cheaper:

https://www.banzaimusic.com/Mundorf-1-5mm-Uncoated-GS-Wire.html

 

[Nenon]

20 hours ago, Middy said:

@Nenon

If you have any photos, when you have time. Would love too see what you did.

Thank you.

 

Of the cables? Here is a silver/gold DC cable with JSSG360 shielding and cotton sleeving I made this morning for a fellow in Chicago to try.  

[sandyk]

49 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

Of the cables? Here is a silver/gold DC cable with JSSG360 shielding and cotton sleeving I made this morning for a fellow in Chicago to try.  

Just remember that thick, fairly inflexible cables can put a lot of strain on your typical D.C. sockets if they don't go in to them without a bend, and they should ideally be replaced by heavier duty type sockets such as XLR etc. if possible, and lockable types preferably.

[Darryl R]

On 12/15/2019 at 5:37 PM, romaz said:

SGM Extreme

 

Given the knowledge accumulated through so many hours of testing and comparing, the natural question arises why I would buy an SGM Extreme?  The bottom line is as much as I would like to, I cannot build a server of the caliber of the Extreme.  I don't think anyone but Emile can.  Having communicated with Emile at length over a span of months, it became evident that Emile has spent many more hours than I have with his testing and comparing.  He even quit his day job as a university level IT professional so he can test and compare all day long.  Unlike me, he has access to measuring equipment and has spent tens of thousands of Euros measuring the noise spectra of motherboards, CPUs, chipsets, clocks, memory, storage media, and power supplies to guide his path whereas I am left to random guesses as to which CPU and motherboard might sound best.  I also do not have the gifts that Emile has with respect to hardware and software optimization capability including network allocation.  I don't think most other IT professionals do either based on the fact that no one else has come up with a server like the Extreme.  Here is an example of one of Emile's e-mails to me and I think you'll quickly get the picture as to how Emile views music server design.  I had asked Emile why he felt he needed to use 48GB of RAM in the Extreme when this seemed like overkill and would potentially be a significant source of noise:

 

"Well RAM is a topic on its own, to start with, the 2 cpu’s are split into domains (NUMA / SNC), so you really have 2 x 6 dimms, 6 for each CPU, they are not shared. Music services have their own cpu/dimms and the OS has its own cpu/dims. So its sort of a core and endpoint into a single machine going beyond just core allocations for individual processes. These Ram modules are a custom order type, similar to the Apacer types popular in the Jplay forums, but taking it just a bit further. They do create less noise and draw less current then other offerings. If more dimms reduce performance, it typically means your power supply is negatively impacted by the increased current draw. As occupying more memory channels increases bandwidth and reduces wait states, you do get better individual process performance."  "What you really want to do is reduce your hardware active processing times as much as possible. The net effect is much like a class A amplifier, you have a higher baseline power consumption, but power draw does not vary much, and this is very good for a more “natural/relaxed” sound. I hope this makes sense 🙂 But you do need a power supply which is very comfortable supplying the load. You really want the least possible variation in load, and higher cpu power / bandwidth systems are better at that with very low load music playback processes."

 

As for the Extreme being a core and endpoint in a single chassis, this was interesting for me as well.  You basically have 2 CPUs with each CPU having its own dedicated RAM bank (24GB each) and so there is a genuine distribution of tasks between 2 machines just like dual Pink Faun 2.16Xs.  While I very much like what I heard in the Aries Cerat room at Munich this past May where dual 2.16Xs were playing, this configuration costs north of $30k, has fewer cores, uses a noisy SSD, consumes more than 200 watts, and capably functions as a room heater.  I find the Extreme to be a more elegant and practical solution and at least on paper, I believe it is the most technologically advanced music server at this time.  My brief listening experience in Taiko Audio's listening room did nothing to dissuade me from this opinion.  

 

Happy holidays.   

 

 

Just now saw Mr. Romaz's holiday update.  Like everyone else here I really enjoy reading content like this, and this one was so well done, full of useful info.

 

This is the most compelling write-up I've seen for the SGM Extreme (and I've been so on-the-fence about getting it, rationalizing it will be better to wait for Emile's B lineup he says he'll have out in a few months, or to settle for a pair of PHD SR7s with my own ASRock/i7/Streacom server).  For me this year, it's either the SGM or the mono powerbases for my MSB Select 2 DAC -- I can't do both.  I wish Emile had a demo unit.

 

EDIT: I scanned the quoted post another time, and somehow keep missing the amps he liked with his Alexias.

[HeeBroG]

6 hours ago, Darryl R said:

 

For me this year, it's either the SGM or the mono powerbases for my MSB Select 2 DAC -- I can't do both.  I wish Emile had a demo unit.

 

If it's not at the "source" no DAC, including the MSB Select 2 DAC, will be able to recover it!🤔

That seems to be the SGM mantra anyway and I guess it makes sense.

Its just a pity that the cost of admission is prohibitive for most at €24k.

As a comparison though; how much do you think you've spent on your server inclusive of power supplies, DC cables, audiophile USB/Ethernet cards etc?

 

[Darryl R]

9 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

If it's not at the "source" no DAC, including the MSB Select 2 DAC, will be able to recover it!🤔

That seems to be the SGM mantra anyway and I guess it makes sense.

Its just a pity that the cost of admission is prohibitive for most at €24k.

As a comparison though; how much do you think you've spent on your server inclusive of power supplies, DC cables, audiophile USB/Ethernet cards etc?

 

 

A few thousand

 

One of MSB's objectives for the ProUSB input module was to take the server variable out of the equation, but a number of MSB customers are now advocating for the SGM.

[mourip]

14 hours ago, sandyk said:

Just remember that thick, fairly inflexible cables can put a lot of strain on your typical D.C. sockets if they don't go in to them without a bend, and they should ideally be replaced by heavier duty type sockets such as XLR etc. if possible, and lockable types preferably.

 

I have found this type of mini XLR "aviation" connector to work well. I think that I got mine on eBay.

[rickca]

Here's a very detailed leak about Intel Ghost Canyon NUC.  Use Google translate.

 

Quite a few surprises.  The good news is it has both a PCIe x16 slot and a PCIe x4 slot, 3 x M.2 Key M, dual Ethernet ports, and WiFi 6.  The bad news is there's a 500W internal power supply and two fans.

 

The NUC9 will use Intel's swappable NUC compute element board with 45W TDP processors.

https://koolshare.cn/thread-168913-1-1.html

 

[Dutch]

27 minutes ago, rickca said:

and two fans.

I count even four; two big chassis fans, one on the CPU module and one inside the PSU. 😀

[kennyb123]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:13 AM, austinpop said:

I hope to try the DXP-1A5S boxes that @romaz and @seeteeyou have mentioned with these SR rails to see how much closer I can get to DR-level SQ. I am waiting for @[email protected] to get back to me after his holiday travels.

 

It’s coming up on three weeks since I placed my order for a pair of those boxes and yet my order status is still processing.  Website indicates a 1-2 week lead time so holiday travels would certainly explain the delay.  Sure would be nice to get a status update from @[email protected].  

 

[ray-dude]

I did hear from Alexey recently that he has been swamped with orders, and is waiting on some parts that will be coming in at the end of this month.  Hopefully he can fulfill quickly once he gets those.

 

 

[cjf]

Has anyone done a deep dive into how to reduce DPC Latency on a Windows based music server and if so what have you uncovered? This of course is for those using USB based connectivity to the DAC. I'm curious if the PCIe based USB Cards offer any better performance then say the baked in USB Ports on a given system. It seems that most of this probably boils down to the quality of the driver, Horsepower of the system itself and tweaks to the OS but I've yet to see a good guide on reducing such latency, especially with Windows 10 that say anything more than try to disable various devices in Win Device Manager. I have gone thru this exercise and it made no real difference. Disabling the NIC Card is not an option which is something typically mentioned.

 

I do wonder how much better a Thunderbolt3 based system would fare in comparison since the drivers involved for Thunderbolt3 are very close to that of a PCIe based driver or so I've read.

 

Some of the old school tools out there no longer work with Win10 and report false readings such as DPC Latency Checker from Thesycon. My Intel NUC is no slouch in terms of horsepower but still reports unimpressive numbers when checked with the latency tools that do work with Win10 such as LatencyMon by Resplendence.

 

The issue of course with this latency is resulting drop outs and other nasty things that can be very annoying. The only hope I'm holding on to at this stage is for Thunderbolt3 being much better or for more then the one or two companies that exist today who offer Ethernet based multi-channel connectivity (ie..Horus,Metric Halo8 3D).

[rickca]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:38 AM, rickca said:

Intel Ghost Canyon NUC

Another article including some rather shockingly high prices.  Intel will also have Quartz Canyon that will offer Xeon CPUs.  

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/7/21051879/intel-pc-nuc-9-extreme-ghost-canyon-element-hands-on-teardown-ces-2020

 

 

[bobfa]

A Tale of Three Roon Servers

 

 

To haul this thread a bit more back on track, here is a little story about SQ in my systems.

 

 

I have been using Allo USBridge Sig endpoints to a couple of different music server software systems.  I have tried UPnP, Audirvana, and Roon.  I have narrowed down the software in the Allo to either MoOde or GentooPlayer.  While both sound good, MoOde does not seem to work right with Roon!  GentooPlayer has held up well for me.  The Allo USBridge Sig is the best sounding endpoint I have used to-date in my systems.   

 

While the Allo does an excellent job of isolating the noise from the DAC, it is not perfect.   

 

Two NUCs running ROCK and a Xeon running Euphony

I wanted to find out if the server mattered any more!  I started with two different 7i7 NUC devices: The first one is in the Intel tall chassis with fan and the external switching supply.  The second one is my fan-less build with an HDPLEX 200 power supply.  I installed Roon ROCK on both systems so I could swap back and forth.  There are other differences in the hardware, RAM, and SSD vs. Optane, so the differences are exaggerated.

 

On both Allo endpoints, the difference was instantly observable.  The Intel chassis model sounded harsh, and the dynamics are constrained.  It felt like I stepped back ten years, yuk!  I hope my HD-800 cans were not insulted!

 

The next test is to bring in my Xeon server with an HDPLEX 400 LPS.  I added back in the Sonore Opticalmodule, bridged the network to the Allo on my Kii Three speaker system.   The music feels excellent; there is additional detail, bass clarity, and midrange strength with none of the high-end glare! 

 

Now the fan-less NUC running Roon ROCK is pretty darn good, but the Xeon box is way better.  And not a Paul Hines SR power supply in sight!

 

There is so much more to research.    I can take out the Opticalmodule and use a generic FMC or wired ethernet.  So much more with software.  Different kernels and settings.  I am not even loading endpoints or server OS into RAM yet.  

 

What is incredible is that after several months of reviewing and testing, I got my Roon back!  For right now, this is an excellent place to pause and Enjoy the Music.

Bob

 

Reference Threads:

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55383-from-0-to-nucalram-in-2-hours/?tab=comments#comment-917302

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55681-from-0-to-xeonalroon-server-in-2-days/?tab=comments#comment-928961

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/allo-usbridge-sig-review-r858/

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55235-gentooplayer/#comments

 

[LTG2010]

6 hours ago, bobfa said:

 The Allo USBridge Sig is the best sounding endpoint I have used to-date in my systems.   

Hi Bob,

Thanks for all the information.

How does the Allo USB Bridge SIG + power supply compare with the fanless NUC + HDPLEX 200 both as endpoints.What are the sound quality differences?

Both running Gentooplayer and using the Xeon machine as a roonserver. That would level the playing field and give us a picture of the differences.

Regards

Alec

[matthias]

7 hours ago, bobfa said:

Now the fan-less NUC running Roon ROCK is pretty darn good, but the Xeon box is way better.  And not a Paul Hines SR power supply in sight!

 

Hi Bob,

there is an interesting post of @romaz on WBF:

 

"The concept behind an endpoint was to mask the noise generated by a noisy upstream server or NAS and so the general belief has been that the endpoint should be a low noise device suggesting once again a low power CPU. When I first discovered the sound quality benefits of a server with a high power CPU, I continued to use my endpoints that housed a low power CPU including such things as a NUC, uRendu, and sMS-200ultra Neo. As I improved the quality of my high power server, I found that these endpoints were no longer necessary and in fact, became detrimental as they significantly hindered dynamics and shrunk the sound stage. It became clear to me that the endpoint needed to be equivalent to the server in order to avoid this and Pink Faun obviously agrees since they are marketing a dual 2.16X solution. With the Extreme having dual CPUs and with each CPU having its own independent bank of memory, you have the capacity for the same distribution of tasks but housed in a single chassis which is really quite elegant. In Emile's testing, he indicated this distribution between 2 CPUs sounded better than a single CPU having at least 20 cores."

 

Did you come across a similar situation where a direct connection to a HQ server is superior to the additional use of an endpoint like the Allo?

Thanks

 

Matt

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for all the information.

How does the Allo USB Bridge SIG + power supply compare with the fanless NUC + HDPLEX 200 both as endpoints.What are the sound quality differences?

Both running Gentooplayer and using the Xeon machine as a roonserver. That would level the playing field and give us a picture of the differences.

Regards

Alec

Now that I am set back up with the NUC free to use and an endpoint I can run GentooPlayer on it and see what happens.  I actually had not thought of testing this way.  Thanks for the idea.  

 

bob

 

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Hi Bob,

there is an interesting post of @romaz on WBF:

 

"The concept behind an endpoint was to mask the noise generated by a noisy upstream server or NAS and so the general belief has been that the endpoint should be a low noise device suggesting once again a low power CPU. When I first discovered the sound quality benefits of a server with a high power CPU, I continued to use my endpoints that housed a low power CPU including such things as a NUC, uRendu, and sMS-200ultra Neo. As I improved the quality of my high power server, I found that these endpoints were no longer necessary and in fact, became detrimental as they significantly hindered dynamics and shrunk the sound stage. It became clear to me that the endpoint needed to be equivalent to the server in order to avoid this and Pink Faun obviously agrees since they are marketing a dual 2.16X solution. With the Extreme having dual CPUs and with each CPU having its own independent bank of memory, you have the capacity for the same distribution of tasks but housed in a single chassis which is really quite elegant. In Emile's testing, he indicated this distribution between 2 CPUs sounded better than a single CPU having at least 20 cores."

 

Did you come across a similar situation where a direct connection to a HQ server is superior to the additional use of an endpoint like the Allo?

Thanks

 

Matt

Matt,

I think it is an interesting way of looking at the situation.  It is also a “new” way of distributing the computing power.  While this works for a single system it becomes expensive when there is more than one endpoint to drive.  I also think that you have to address the link between the computer and the DAC. I know that the SG Extreme does that too.    

 

I think, i do not know!   That the attention to power supplies and system layout has a large impact.  Software and Operating Systems is yet another part of the matrix.  What we DO NOT know is what the modality of the problem we are solving is.  We cannot directly measure it.  The folks at Sonore, and UpTone Audio are working this from some other angles..  DCS seems to have a pretty good idea of what they are doing too!

 

Over the summer I was using my Xeon box and a txUSBultra as a single box solution that worked very well it was the best my system had sounded.  When I reviewed the Allo I found it a great endpoint solution that sounds a lot better than the Xeon system alone.   NOW here is a interesting question.  I was not using the same software platforms on the endpoints.    There are so many combinations to test.  I can now get the same OS on both Pi and x86.  I wonder what my server will sound like with GentooPlayer.   Is my combination of home brew server, txUSBultra, and OpticalModule  comparable to the USBridge Sig??  Finding this out is a matter of time/planning and the will to do it.

 

I still have to review the DigiOne board in my Allo.    Whew...

 

With a more ??sane??  budget, I am working to get better results.  So far I am succeeding in making things better and better. 

 

Bob

[ted_b]

Bob,

I feel like I am  coming in on this conversation like someone at a cocktail party, where he joins a group and says "what are you guys talking about..." to get up to speed.    Sorry.  But isn't "endpoint" rather vague when it comes to the various tasks/architectures that an endpoint can be asked to do?  I mean, Jussi's NAA architecture, and his minimalist/isolationist approach to "dac driver and that is all" is likely quite different than what is optimal for a Roon endpoint, or some other endpoint set of orders.  Is Romaz's experience with HQPlayer and NAA, or some other thing (I should know this but sitting on the sidelines is very difficult)?  And your experiences?  Thx...send me a pertinent link if this is hashing over old already-discussed material. 

[bobfa]

2 hours ago, ted_b said:

Bob,

I feel like I am  coming in on this conversation like someone at a cocktail party, where he joins a group and says "what are you guys talking about..." to get up to speed.    Sorry.  But isn't "endpoint" rather vague when it comes to the various tasks/architectures that an endpoint can be asked to do?  I mean, Jussi's NAA architecture, and his minimalist/isolationist approach to "dac driver and that is all" is likely quite different than what is optimal for a Roon endpoint, or some other endpoint set of orders.  Is Romaz's experience with HQPlayer and NAA, or some other thing (I should know this but sitting on the sidelines is very difficult)?  And your experiences?  Thx...send me a pertinent link if this is hashing over old already-discussed material. 

When I say endpoint I mean. The renderer, D to D. Typically Ethernet to USB or other DAC input. 
 

 

[[email protected]]

18 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

It’s coming up on three weeks since I placed my order for a pair of those boxes and yet my order status is still processing.  Website indicates a 1-2 week lead time so holiday travels would certainly explain the delay.  Sure would be nice to get a status update from @[email protected].  

 

i am apologies for the delays, but i can start shipments by the last week of January only , i can not get enclosures faster, Chrismass and New Year holidays affecting deliveries