A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Gavin1977]

24 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

I'm unaware of anyone who has heard a Farad Super12, much less compared one to an SR7.  What is basis for your comment?  Thanks.

Austinpops review of Farad Super 3

 

 

[ehoz]

Has anyone got this working with a directstream DAC with a Mac book pro ?

i have tried unsuccessfully.

[seeteeyou]

15 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I'm unaware of anyone who has heard a Farad Super12, much less compared one to an SR7.  What is basis for your comment?  Thanks.

 

BTW, how would you rank Poweradd Pilot Pro2 + DC-7N16C Neotech UPOCC 7N Copper when compared to the rest of your PSUs? This particular comment below looked quite interesting to me

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-547#post-15181782

Quote

I found PP2 on NUC and SR4 on HMS to be slightly better than SR4 on NUC and PP2 on HMS, which is very interesting in its own right (I was very surprised the SQ was close as it was)

 

Thank you.

[Gavin1977]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

BTW, how would you rank Poweradd Pilot Pro2 + DC-7N16C Neotech UPOCC 7N Copper when compared to the rest of your PSUs? This particular comment below looked quite interesting to me

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-547#post-15181782

 

Thank you.

Would be an interesting experiment, perhaps some of the delta can be explained by the fact that the PSU to the endpoint makes the most difference?

[ray-dude]

5 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Would be an interesting experiment, perhaps some of the delta can be explained by the fact that the PSU to the endpoint makes the most difference?

 

It seems to me that the SR4 + PP2 are attacking the same fundamental root cause of the SQ differences.  With the SR4 in the chain, the order is a LOT less impactful than I thought it would be.  If SR4 is doing the heavy lifting (and PP2 + SR4 for the NUC and Hugo mScaler is a big step up in SQ for me, vs PP2 on both NUC and HMS), the it is the job of the PP2 to do no harm to whatever the SR4 cleaned up.

 

Lots more to be learned here, but folks with a better selection of LPS's to experiment with will have a lot easier time sussing out what is going on (alas, while I wait for my SR7, I only have an SR4 and a couple LPS 1.2's to play with, so I'm limited in the configurations I can test with my NUC and HMS)

 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

deleted

 

[auricgoldfinger]

11 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

BTW, how would you rank Poweradd Pilot Pro2 + DC-7N16C Neotech UPOCC 7N Copper when compared to the rest of your PSUs? This particular comment below looked quite interesting to me

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-547#post-15181782

 

Thank you.

 

Unfortunately, I’m not set up to make such a comparison.  Since all of my PSUs are either 19v or 12v, I have no equivalent to the 16v PP2 for use on my HMS, which requires a 15v or 16v power supply for optimal sound quality.  I know from past experience that a certain coveted DR 12v rail had minimal benefit relative to the stock 15v SMPS, while the 16v PP2 + 16AWG Neotech UPOCC 7N copper DC cable makes a more obvious improvement.  While some might question my finding that the 12v DR rail has a negligible effect on the HMS, I do not believe their HMS as well as both digital interconnects are grounded directly to an active ground block as are mine.  In my experience, this type of grounding lowers the noise floor, which in this particular use case is possibly negating most of the benefits of the “quiet” DR rail running at less-than-optimal voltage.

[ray-dude]

I do think it is important to look at these as a system (vs components).  Without swapping all sorts of components in and out, it is hard to isolate the impact of any particular PS or cable or tweak.

 

For example, I have a dedicated 30A line going to a Topaz Isolation transformer to the SR4 to the HMS.  The HMS/SR4 is the only thing on that circuit.  I have a separate dedicated 30A line going to a separate Topaz Isolation transformer to my DAVE, which are directly connected to my Voxativ speakers (no amp or preamp)

 

In between, everything is powered by Uptone LPS 1.2's, or PP2's (mains isolated in both cases).  I have a PP2 powering my end point NUC (either Roon Bridge under Audio Linux or a Euphony Stylus end point), USB (Lush^2) to ISO Regen (LPS 1.2) to Lush^2 to Matrix Audio XSPDIF 2 (power by Vbus from ISO Regen) to toslink optical to HMS (powered by SR4) to Opto•DX dual BNC optical isolation (PP2 on HMS side, LPS 1.2 on DAVE side) to DAVE.  Minimal opportunity for ground loops, and optical isolation where I can get it.

 

All that being said, I was VERY surprised that SR4 on the NUC and PP2 on the HMS  had nearly the same SQ (~90%?) as PP2 on the NUC and SR4 on the HMS, esp. with the ISO Regen and Matrix Audio DDC sitting between them.  Definitely made me sit up and go "huh..."

 

If I had a TX Ultra with Mutec clock and further optimized server with SR7 DR rails would my findings be different?  Almost certainly (and I can't wait to hear that someday!)  For now, I'm viewing all these pokes at the elephant as clues to what may be the root cause of the SQ differences we hear, not a recipe (yet) for success or a recommended setup.  The mechanism(s) for these changes being audible is maddeningly obtuse right now, but the music is absolutely delightful!

 

[seeteeyou]

Their specs claimed that PP2 should be good for 4.5A and that might be a better choice if a high current draw were needed?

 

They also have this PowerCenter II for $212.49 and its 12V output could have the potential to feed a powerful CPU

 

https://www.ipoweradd.com/prod_view.aspx?TypeId=10&Id=418

https://www.amazon.com/POWERADD-PowerCenter-II-Hand-held-Smartphone/dp/B078RZNJR9

Quote

Outputs: 4x USB 5 V - 2.1 A (Max); 2x DC 9 - 12.6 V / 15 A (Max); 1x AC 300 W (Max)

 

Or even use its AC output to power another PSU? Though the quality might not be as good when compared to their tried and true PP2.

[austinpop]

On 9/21/2019 at 1:39 AM, Gavin1977 said:

Farad Super12 should be a really welcome addition at 999 euro ex VAT and is something I'm watching since it's performance is reported to be close to that of an SR7.  

 

Since the Farad Super 12 is not yet shipping, we don't know what it sounds like.

 

On 9/21/2019 at 12:04 PM, Gavin1977 said:

Austinpops review of Farad Super 3

 

This was the Super 3, not the Super 12. And while I praised its SQ, I didn't say it was equal to an SR-7.

 

However, with all that said, we're all looking forward to the next round of Farad products, from the Super 12 to the DC-ATX adapter. Assuming the SQ matches what we've come to expect with the Super 3, these should be very compelling products.

[austinpop]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:10 AM, cool_chris said:

 

This is just a tip of the iceberg .

the main thing is softwere and the thred management .

roon and system for one bank of 6 RAMs and one processor .

jplay for other bank of  6 rams and other processor.

So it acts like 2 servers in one box.

also there are thausends things that are set in Motherboard management,

softwere setup, win 10 stripping, Registry setup, .

custom supply with Mundorf caps.

1G SFP card for network. Vibration management.

Lastly they did some discovery in regards to the clocking being able to set original motherboard clock to work better than the femtoclocks used by others.

 

Also being able to test thausends of options with other components they use ,

they have probably much more knolege than all of us together.

 

I personally did what you are doing for many many years and stopped.

I burned to much time for twicking 3 servers I had.  Could probably buy 5 Extreme servers if I would work that time that I was twicking things.

Ordering Extreme might give me a chance to focuse on music pleasure not on twicking everything I can.

 

As it says on the sticky on top, this thread is ideal for people who like to tweak. A corollary of that is one can achieve very high quality upstream chains for a fraction of the cost of the big boys - SGM Extreme, Pink Faun, etc.

 

If cost is no object, and your budget allows, AND if tweaking is not your thing, then yeah - I'm sure the SGM Extreme is going to be an excellent choice. I suspect it is ahead of our best efforts so far, given the fanatic level of experimentation and optimization Emile does for the product. Of course, that also makes it extremely expensive.

[elan120]

This is a note to share my journey on DC power cables, as usual, these are findings based on my system and my subjective listening impressions, so YMMV.

 

When I first look into improving DC power cables was when I read a short write up from JS about how inductance can have a large effect on DC power cables, where a starquad cable like Canare 4S6 can help in reducing inductance.  This is when I started my DC power cable improvement journey.

 

After replacing just about all my DC cables to Canare 4S6 and enjoyed the result for a while, I started to learn about the JSSG treatment, I got busy again converting all my Canare cables, and the result is a good notch forward in SQ.

 

Just when I thought things are settled in this area, big write up about improvements from JSSG360 treatment took my interest again.  Not wanting to pass up chances to improve my system, I ordered more cables and connectors to make more DC cables. Once again, these new cables pushed my system up another notch.  While I enjoyed the result, I also put together a quick DIY write up in case anyone likes to roll up their sleeve.

 

This round of DC cable heat wave lasted a while and related news got quiet until an AS friend talked to me about using thick 16AWG solid silver wires as DC power cable can have an even greater improvements, while that was an interesting idea, due to all my available time was consumed in other system improvement activities, I didn’t move this project up in my system improvement priorities until I placed the cables he loaned me into my system.  Not only the WOW factor was quite profound, a couple weeks later, another outstanding review on Farad power supply also has the same impression I got on these silver DC cables.

 

This is when I decided to work on getting a few of these silver DC cables for my system.  While Audio Sensibility has the Signature Silver DC Cable I like to have, but based on the previous experience, I know I also want to add JSSG360 treatment to these cables, meanwhile, the recent learning from different configurations in using Lush^2 USB cables, I decided to experiment by adding a third layer of shield to make it JSSG360^3 and see how that will work.

 

After two weeks of getting all the needed materials, I built 3 cables in JSSG360 configuration, two for my NUC and one for sCLK-OCX10.  The cables replaced are Farad standard, Level1, Level2, and my self made Gotham cable in JSSG360 configuration. Right from the start without much of burn-in, the impression is very amazing.  The ability of detail retrieval, dynamic, overall clarity and sound stage all move up a good notch. After about 10 days of burn-in, the already impressive SQ smooth out nicely, making the musical enjoyment even better.

 

After having a good baseline from JSSG360 setup, I added that third layer shield as planned originally to the first cable powering the NUC, the process was fairly straightforward and quick, once the power turned back on, it didn’t take much time for me to realize this experiment is a success.  All the nice features from JSSG360 were all there, but the layering is much more defined, sound stage is even better connected together as a whole, bass notes are more extended and fast, and music feels richer than ever. Needless to say, I was a happy camper late into the night playing different tracks.  Next day, I did the same thing to the second power cable for the NUC, and again, another positive step forward. Finally, on the third day, the last cable has the JSSG360^3 treatment, and now I am thinking which other cables I need to make plans to convert to these.

 

Things I learned from this journey thus far:

• DC power is very important in audiophile equipment
• Better DC power cable can make already good power supply better
• JSSG360 treatment can help improve overall background darkness, which will help reveal more details, improve dynamic and overall presentation
• Thick gauge silver wire perform better than equivalent copper wire
• Thick gauge silver wire in JSSG360 is quite amazing
• Thick gauge silver wire in JSSG360^3 is the DC wire to beat for my setup

 

 

Below are couple pictures showing the same cable in JSSG360 configuration first before set it up to JSSG360^3.

 

JSSG360:

 

 

JSSG360^3:

 

 

[austinpop]

20 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

BTW, how would you rank Poweradd Pilot Pro2 + DC-7N16C Neotech UPOCC 7N Copper when compared to the rest of your PSUs?

 

11 hours ago, ray-dude said:

Lots more to be learned here, but folks with a better selection of LPS's to experiment with will have a lot easier time sussing out what is going on (alas, while I wait for my SR7, I only have an SR4 and a couple LPS 1.2's to play with, so I'm limited in the configurations I can test with my NUC and HMS)

 

9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Unfortunately, I’m not set up to make such a comparison. 

 

There is nothing magical about the Pilot Pro 2. It's still just a battery, and as such, has the usual battery issues of - presumably, as I have not measured it - poor regulation, high output impedance, etc. Its main advantages are:

• high current capacity of > 4A
• 16V setting, which happens to (just) squeak in under the max voltage the Hugo M Scaler will accept
• isolation from the mains.

It's a perfect match for a device that needs high current, low noise, and is indifferent to output impedance, due to its internal power supply design. In other words, a Hugo TT2, because of the TT2's internal supercapacitor supply. For everything else, it's just a battery.

 

I've tried this battery in 3 distinct use cases, powering devices that need high, medium, or low current, and the only difference is how much of a gap there is between the PP2 and the better supplies.

1. High current - Hugo TT2:                   SR7-15 > Farad 3-15 > SR4-15 > PP2-12 (since the TT2 will not accept 16V), but each step is a relatively small difference
2. Medium current - Hugo M Scaler:    SR7-15 > SR4-15 ≈ Farad 3-15 > PP2-16 
3. Low current - SOtM sNH-10G:           SR7-12 > SR4-12 ≈ Farad 3-12 > LPS-1.2 > PP2-12

 

That said, the PP2 does beat out the stock SMPSes for all these devices.

[tims]

4 hours ago, elan120 said:

This is a note to share my journey on DC power cables, as usual, these are findings based on my system and my subjective listening impressions, so YMMV.

 

When I first look into improving DC power cables was when I read a short write up from JS about how inductance can have a large effect on DC power cables, where a starquad cable like Canare 4S6 can help in reducing inductance.  This is when I started my DC power cable improvement journey.

 

After replacing just about all my DC cables to Canare 4S6 and enjoyed the result for a while, I started to learn about the JSSG treatment, I got busy again converting all my Canare cables, and the result is a good notch forward in SQ.

 

Just when I thought things are settled in this area, big write up about improvements from JSSG360 treatment took my interest again.  Not wanting to pass up chances to improve my system, I ordered more cables and connectors to make more DC cables. Once again, these new cables pushed my system up another notch.  While I enjoyed the result, I also put together a quick DIY write up in case anyone likes to roll up their sleeve.

 

This round of DC cable heat wave lasted a while and related news got quiet until an AS friend talked to me about using thick 16AWG solid silver wires as DC power cable can have an even greater improvements, while that was an interesting idea, due to all my available time was consumed in other system improvement activities, I didn’t move this project up in my system improvement priorities until I placed the cables he loaned me into my system.  Not only the WOW factor was quite profound, a couple weeks later, another outstanding review on Farad power supply also has the same impression I got on these silver DC cables.

 

This is when I decided to work on getting a few of these silver DC cables for my system.  While Audio Sensibility has the Signature Silver DC Cable I like to have, but based on the previous experience, I know I also want to add JSSG360 treatment to these cables, meanwhile, the recent learning from different configurations in using Lush^2 USB cables, I decided to experiment by adding a third layer of shield to make it JSSG360^3 and see how that will work.

 

After two weeks of getting all the needed materials, I built 3 cables in JSSG360 configuration, two for my NUC and one for sCLK-OCX10.  The cables replaced are Farad standard, Level1, Level2, and my self made Gotham cable in JSSG360 configuration. Right from the start without much of burn-in, the impression is very amazing.  The ability of detail retrieval, dynamic, overall clarity and sound stage all move up a good notch. After about 10 days of burn-in, the already impressive SQ smooth out nicely, making the musical enjoyment even better.

 

After having a good baseline from JSSG360 setup, I added that third layer shield as planned originally to the first cable powering the NUC, the process was fairly straightforward and quick, once the power turned back on, it didn’t take much time for me to realize this experiment is a success.  All the nice features from JSSG360 were all there, but the layering is much more defined, sound stage is even better connected together as a whole, bass notes are more extended and fast, and music feels richer than ever. Needless to say, I was a happy camper late into the night playing different tracks.  Next day, I did the same thing to the second power cable for the NUC, and again, another positive step forward. Finally, on the third day, the last cable has the JSSG360^3 treatment, and now I am thinking which other cables I need to make plans to convert to these.

 

Things I learned from this journey thus far:

• DC power is very important in audiophile equipment
• Better DC power cable can make already good power supply better
• JSSG360 treatment can help improve overall background darkness, which will help reveal more details, improve dynamic and overall presentation
• Thick gauge silver wire perform better than equivalent copper wire
• Thick gauge silver wire in JSSG360 is quite amazing
• Thick gauge silver wire in JSSG360^3 is the DC wire to beat for my setup

 

 

Below are couple pictures showing the same cable in JSSG360 configuration first before set it up to JSSG360^3.

 

JSSG360:

 

 

JSSG360^3:

 

 

Thanks for the write-up. 

If I understood correctly your latest JSSG360^3 uses a star quad silver cable and not the Gotham 11301 cable.  Did you make this silver cable yourself (by twisting single silver conductors into a star-quad configuration) or buy a silver star quad cable off the shelf?

 

[str-1]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

I've tried this battery in 3 distinct use cases, powering devices that need high, medium, or low current, and the only difference is how much of a gap there is between the PP2 and the better supplies.

1. High current - Hugo TT2:                   SR7-15 > Farad 3-15 > SR4-15 > PP2-12 (since the TT2 will not accept 16V), but each step is a relatively small difference

So Paul confirmed the SR4 was up to the task of powering the TT2.  Can I take from anything he reported back to you that my 5V-12V SR4 would also be up to the task?  I expect my 15V Farad Super3 with silver cable would beat it powering the TT2 but would still be good to know just how far I could push the SR4.

[RickyV]

What about these powerpacks that can jumpstart cars, peak currents of 500A.

https://www.amazon.com/GOOLOO-SuperSafe-Starter-Battery-Portable/dp/B07B4Q7GTL?ref_=Oct_DotdC_9fir0b_0_87abb843&pf_rd_p=1bbfdd6d-70c4-506c-b164-96041e692024&pf_rd_s=mobile-hybrid-4&pf_rd_t=30901&pf_rd_i=318336011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1KRFJ47EER86V6ADVPWT&pf_rd_r=1KRFJ47EER86V6ADVPWT&pf_rd_p=1bbfdd6d-70c4-506c-b164-96041e692024

 

I do not think there's much regulation in there. Still high impedance.

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, str-1 said:

So Paul confirmed the SR4 was up to the task of powering the TT2.  Can I take from anything he reported back to you that my 5V-12V SR4 would also be up to the task?  I expect my 15V Farad Super3 with silver cable would beat it powering the TT2 but would still be good to know just how far I could push the SR4.

 

Yes, Paul did confirm to me that the SR4-15 could handle a 3A inrush, and indeed when I tried it with the TT2, it did work. Whether or not an SR4-12 would work or not is unfortunately hard to say. Here is what Paul said.

 

All -please note the caveats in bold:

 

On another note I have now tested the SR4-19 set to 15v and running at
3.75A continuous for 20 seconds. The SR4 did not drop out of regulation
and the heating effect was minimal on the chassis/power output stage.
This should be enough to allow the Chord power system to charge without
issue. However I would not recommend this level of power delivery
operating continuously so if you post any information regarding use of
the SR4 generally please be sure to state this, as some customers do get
rather optimistic about power handling. 

 

That said, the higher steady-state current draw of the TT2 did put the SR4-15 at a sonic disadvantage. While the Farad and SR-4 are neck and neck in low current use cases, on the TT2, the Farad actually pulled ahead. It sounded denser, had better bass, and more dynamic. I attribute this to higher current capacity. Also note, my usage of the TT2 included driving headphones, so this would definitely require more current than if it were being used solely as a DAC or DAC/Pre.

 

This is indeed not the first time I've seen this inversion of PSU ratings when powering devices with higher current demands. Please see the section Impact of PSUs in my review of the Brooklyn DAC+ from last year. In that case, the JS-2 outperformed the SR-4 when powering the DAC, even though in lower current scenarios like powering the tX-USBultra, the SR-4 had better SQ.

 

This is hardly a surprise for us, but (current capacity and transformer) size matters.

[cool_chris]

17 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

As it says on the sticky on top, this thread is ideal for people who like to tweak. A corollary of that is one can achieve very high quality upstream chains for a fraction of the cost of the big boys - SGM Extreme, Pink Faun, etc.

 

If cost is no object, and your budget allows, AND if tweaking is not your thing, then yeah - I'm sure the SGM Extreme is going to be an excellent choice. I suspect it is ahead of our best efforts so far, given the fanatic level of experimentation and optimization Emile does for the product. Of course, that also makes it extremely expensive.

 

You are one of the most experienced audiophile I know on this planet.

Also Emile respects your knolage and experience in computer audio.

I know how fun it is to keep improving SQ. Did it for many years.

It is endless pleasure but I got just to tired and spent to much on different twicks.

I hope you have as much fun as I had but you will be smarter on spending less than I did.

 

[elan120]

12 hours ago, tims said:

Did you make this silver cable yourself (by twisting single silver conductors into a star-quad configuration) or buy a silver star quad cable off the shelf?

The base of this cable is a double shielded Neotech 16AWG solid core silver cable purchased from Audio Sensibility in a twisted pair configuration.  I first setup the cable in JSSG360 configuration with the double shield, and then added the third layer to make it JSSG360^3.

[Bricki]

7 hours ago, elan120 said:

The base of this cable is a double shielded Neotech 16AWG solid core silver cable purchased from Audio Sensibility in a twisted pair configuration.  I first setup the cable in JSSG360 configuration with the double shield, and then added the third layer to make it JSSG360^3.

Did you purchase the cable as bulk or pre terminated? I assume you altered the existing sheilds to JSSG360 configuration before adding your 3rd layer?

[elan120]

1 hour ago, Bricki said:

Did you purchase the cable as bulk or pre terminated? I assume you altered the existing sheilds to JSSG360 configuration before adding your 3rd layer?

Cable was purchased in bulk without termination, and the existing shields were used to setup JSSG360 configurations.

[elan120]

On 9/18/2019 at 7:02 AM, auricgoldfinger said:

I have been using industrial RAM in my 7i7DNHE endpoint and 7i7DNBE server for the past several months.  Specifically, this memory:

 

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/75-b93gj-g010b-307859

 

When I was considering this tweak, my first thought was "That seems like a lot of money to spend on memory for a NUC!"  My second thought was "How am I ever going to conduct any A/B testing?" 

 

I decided to start with the endpoint.  Fortunately, the improvement was evident from the moment I re-booted, negating the need for A/B testing.  The best way I can describe the change is to say that the listening experience is more immersive.  The music is more immediate and present. 

 

I subsequently purchased the same RAM for the server.  While the improvement was not as dramatic as with the endpoint, there was definitely an additive effect.

 

I was already very far down the transparency rabbit hole when I undertook this experiment.  Spending $150 (or $300) may not make sense for everyone.  For example, I would allocate budget dollars to a 19v Farad3 or SR4-19 with high quality silver leads before upgrading the RAM.  Getting the power supply right should take precedence.

 

 

I concur the findings.  Installed the RAMs two days ago, and like these Apacer memories quite a bit.

 

Here is a picture with Apacer DDR4 SDRAM in action:

[RickyV]

45 minutes ago, elan120 said:

I concur the findings.  Installed the RAMs two days ago, and like these Apacer memories quite a bit.

 

Here is a picture with Apacer DDR4 SDRAM in action:

 

How would you or @auricgoldfinger rank the apacer tweak, on core isolation level, on ramroot level or clock upgrade level? 

Have you tried one simm, I think I like it. 

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

 

How would you or @auricgoldfinger rank the apacer tweak, on core isolation level, on ramroot level or clock upgrade level? 

Have you tried one simm, I think I like it. 

 

That's an interesting way of framing the question.  For now, I'll defer to @elan120 for his perspective since he has done more tweaking with AL and his NUC than I.

 

I haven't tried one SIMM yet, but it's on my to do list.

 

 

[elan120]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

 

How would you or @auricgoldfinger rank the apacer tweak, on core isolation level, on ramroot level or clock upgrade level? 

Have you tried one simm, I think I like it. 

The difference with Apacer memory change is quite apparent.  Based my subjective listening, the level of improvement is on par or a bit better compared to Ramroot.  Music sounds more three-dimensional and rounded, the “you are there” feeling is further enhanced.  Overall, I feel this is another worthwhile upgrade that should be added to all the other changes/tweaks mentioned in this long thread.

 

Once I have more burn-in time on these RAMs, I do plan on trying single SIMM.