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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

The Computer Audiophile

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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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12GB / 16GB of ECC RAM from Apacer would certainly cost quite a bit

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/591/?tab=comments#comment-983622

On 8/21/2019 at 2:48 AM, sonics said:

my nuc7 i7 and ramroot works with 12Gb of sodimm.

4 Gb no chance. 8Gb :stutter.

Sounds phantastic.

Server nuc pjyh with daphile as squeezeserver

and NUC 7 as squeezclient on Euphony. Imho better than stylus, which is already very good.

 

For powering DDR-2 ones externally, Apacer also made 2GB sticks but they weren't wide-temp ones

 

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR2-ECC-UDIMM

https://www.amazon.com/ACARD-ANS-9010BA-Dynamic-Modules-Included/dp/B00VMS9ER4

Quote

RAM Disk supports unbuffer and non-registered, ECC / non-ECC DDR2 DIMM

 

They just claimed Ultra Low Latency but not sure about the difference between 3D NAND (i.e. TLC) versus 3D XPoint / Optane

 

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/NEWS/PCIe-Gen3-NVMe-SSDs--The-Next-Logical-Step-for-Industrial-grade-Storage

Quote

Apacer's PCIe Gen3 NVMe series products are augmented with advanced LDPC (Low Density Parity Check) ECC engines and DataRAID™, providing data error correction and backup mechanisms to ensure the correctness and accuracy of data transmission.

 

spacer.png

 

512GB for 300 bucks

 

https://www.apacerstores.com/product/pt120-m280/

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/SSD/PT120-M280

https://industrial.apacer.com/upfiles/ADUpload/allshare/PT120-M280_EDM.pdf

 

However, the latest ones are supposed to be PV310-M280

 

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/SSD/PV310-M280

https://industrial.apacer.com/upfiles/ADUpload/allshare/PV310-M280_EDM.pdf

 

No pricing yet

 

https://www.rutronik24.com/product/apacer/app240g1dn-01vtd/12797640.html

https://www.rutronik24.com/product/apacer/app480g1dn-01vtd/12797641.html

https://www.rutronik24.com/product/apacer/app960g1dn-01vtd/12797642.html

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Given that ECC is unsupported in the PJYH NUC (Pentium J5005 officieally doesn't support ECC) yet is still reported to work, has anyone tried ECC in DNHE NUC?

 

I am wondering which is of most benefit - ECC, Wide Temperature or both?

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15 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

Given that ECC is unsupported in the PJYH NUC (Pentium J5005 officieally doesn't support ECC) yet is still reported to work, has anyone tried ECC in DNHE NUC?

 

I am wondering which is of most benefit - ECC, Wide Temperature or both?

What is your source that ECC work with a PJYH NUC?

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24 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

What is your source that ECC work with a PJYH NUC?

Appologies - I might have got this wrong, I thought the source of this was earlier in this thread.  Anyway - the question still stands.

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1 hour ago, Gavin1977 said:

Thanks Seeteeyou - so what is more important ECC, Wide temperature or Industrial grade?

 

We don't know. 

Wide temperature = better quality parts used.

ECC = error correction.

We have reports from people saying that non-ECC wide temp memory made a positive difference. We also have reports that ECC memory sounds better. Probably both make a difference, but that's just a guess. 

 

Theoretically, I can buy some non-ECC wide temperature Apacer memory and compare in my system. But honestly I am not that interested to spend the extra money and time for that test. Maybe someone else can do it, but it would require an ECC-compatible computer (i.e. AMD, Xeon, etc.). Can't test on a NUC7i7DNBE as it does not support ECC. 

 

I would not completely change my system just for ECC memory support. All those happy NUC users who want to try different memory can just try the non-ECC industrial wide temperature range Apacer (or another brand) memory. And for those building a new computer now may consider going the AMD route.

 

A few people reached out to me asking about the Apacer memory. Mouser is one of the places in the US that sells it with a hefty premium. If we can get enough people, we might be able to do a group buy direct at significantly lower price. Not sure I really want to organize that, but if you are interested ping me on PM. 

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43 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

The Quartz Canyon NUCs will come with a 500W internal power supply...😥

I know - really gutted about this, but could be modded I guess 🙂

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Here's yet another "secret weapon" from Apacer that would cost even more

 

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR4-XR-DIMM

 

The First XR-DIMM DRAM Module with RTCA DO-160G Certification From the Leading Supplier of Industrial-grade Memory

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/NEWS/The-First-XR-DIMM-DRAM-Module-with-RTCA-DO-160G-Certification-From-the-Leading-Supplier-of-Industrial-grade-Memory

 

Anti-vibration could play a role when it comes to the SQ department?

 

aCujpye.png

 

Though we'll be limited to an industrial motherboard (wide temperature, too) like this one

 

http://www.perfectron.com/download/datasheet/DT_AB20.pdf

http://www.perfectron.com/products/embedded/ATX/AB20.html

 

Most likely some manufacturers of music servers are keeping an eye on XR-DIMM and planning to implement this in the future?

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On 9/18/2019 at 9:19 PM, RickyV said:

Sounds interesting I was looking for ram for my nuc7i7dn, Euphony, endpoint. 4Gb would be enough wouldn’t it?

 

 

I'm also tempted by @auricgoldfinger's post for my nuc7i7dn Euphony Stylus standalone server, which I ordered with 16GB RAM to allow for maximum future flexibility, even though Euphony's guide states that 4GB is sufficient (as written before the new ramroot feature became available).

 

With no DSP, but with 100% buffering of the music file, the Euphony readings state that only 3% of RAM is being used.

With ramroot enabled, that goes to 10% RAM (1.6GB). Therefore 4GB RAM should be enough even for a ramrooted server, and I'm very tempted to just try that because of cost and SQ (romaz's old post stated that smaller RAMs sound better - presumably due to less noise and current draw).

 

One unknown is if there are any start-up peaks, or library management activities, which would go well beyond the steady state RAM usage. i assume an endpoint would have lower RAM requirements than a server.

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10 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

I'm also tempted by @auricgoldfinger's post for my nuc7i7dn Euphony Stylus standalone server, which I ordered with 16GB RAM to allow for maximum future flexibility, even though Euphony's guide states that 4GB is sufficient (as written before the new ramroot feature became available).

 

With no DSP, but with 100% buffering of the music file, the Euphony readings state that only 3% of RAM is being used.

With ramroot enabled, that goes to 10% RAM (1.6GB). Therefore 4GB RAM should be enough even for a ramrooted server, and I'm very tempted to just try that because of cost and SQ (romaz's old post stated that smaller RAMs sound better - presumably due to less noise and current draw).

 

One unknown is if there are any start-up peaks, or library management activities, which would go well beyond the steady state RAM usage. i assume an endpoint would have lower RAM requirements than a server.

 

If you have two ram modules in use try removing one. So listen music, and after half an hour remove the second one ram module and listen again. Curious what you think.

Seems more focused. I had two 4Gb Corsair Vangeance modules.

 

Plus on the nuc 7i7 dn.. the  4 core temperatures averages better out now? 


Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers with scan speak illuminator drivers.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus

Clock modded FS105 v3, Clock modded Isoregen, Lush^2

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11 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

I'm also tempted by @auricgoldfinger's post for my nuc7i7dn Euphony Stylus standalone server, which I ordered with 16GB RAM to allow for maximum future flexibility, even though Euphony's guide states that 4GB is sufficient (as written before the new ramroot feature became available).

 

With no DSP, but with 100% buffering of the music file, the Euphony readings state that only 3% of RAM is being used.

With ramroot enabled, that goes to 10% RAM (1.6GB). Therefore 4GB RAM should be enough even for a ramrooted server, and I'm very tempted to just try that because of cost and SQ (romaz's old post stated that smaller RAMs sound better - presumably due to less noise and current draw).

 

One unknown is if there are any start-up peaks, or library management activities, which would go well beyond the steady state RAM usage. i assume an endpoint would have lower RAM requirements than a server.

Where would you library of music live?

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AMD just announced that Ryzen 9 3950X is delayed till November.  The next generation of Threadripper CPUs are coming in November as well.


NUC7PJYH/AL --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10 Version 1903/HDPLEX 200W/HDPLEX 400W DC-ATX --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-threadripper-3000-cpu-trx4-wrx8-quad-octa-channel-memory-support/

https://wccftech.com/gigabyte-z490-x299x-trx40-intel-amd-motherboards-leak/

https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-threadripper-3000-official-launch-november/

 

https://videocardz.com/newz/rumors-threadripper-3000-trx40-chipset-gtx-1660-super-h470-and-navi-nitro

https://videocardz.com/newz/gigabyte-z490-x299x-and-trx40-motherboards-spotted-at-eec

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-pushes-ryzen-9-3950x-back-coming-this-november-with-threadripper-3000

 

Let's see if TRX40 AORUS Xtreme were fanless / getting the best VRM again? Though Threadripper 3000 Series wouldn't be "cool" enough for passive cooling since previous ones were more like either 180W or 250W.

 

IIRC one of those 95W TDP processors from Intel could get away with a single SR7 rail @ 12V/5A when we're only running Euphony / Stylus, maybe 12V/6A is a safer bet for 3950X? And then we're also expecting Super12 (with 12V/12A by combining 3 rails) to be shipped by the end of 2019, that's gotta be enough over-provisioned current then.

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Farad Super12 should be a really welcome addition at 999 euro ex VAT and is something I'm watching since it's performance is reported to be close to that of an SR7.  A single SR7 rail for a NUC is obviously rare, very expensive and the cost of an even higher ampage version deters from these higher end configurations from being used.  Having said that I'm still not sure if the difference in sound quality would be worth it.  One thing I keep thinking about is if someone had the time to experiment and report back on disabling CPU cores on these processors and running them lean with lower amperage - how low can there power draw be taken?  I also think it'd be great if there was some form of current sensing ATX DC-DC converter that switched from linear power to a standard SMPS once say 2-3A had been surpassed - that'd be great and best of both worlds.

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Just wanna quote some kind words as follows and kudos to Rajiv as usual

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596786

Quote

Thank you and welcome to the What's Best Forum. If you are the same Austinpop as on the Audiophilestyle Forum I would characterize your efforts as beyond modest. One of the driving forces moving the technology forward would be more appropriate.

 

Speaking of SGM Extreme, they weren't shy about showing us what the motherboard is

 

https://avx.hu/forum/download/file.php?id=60828

qaXGmIG.jpg

 

https://www.asus.com/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-C621E-SAGE/

https://www.newegg.com/asus-ws-c621e-sage-dual-intel-socket-p-for-intel-xeon-scalable-processors-family/p/N82E16813119064

 

Processors were stated to be 1st gen Xeon Scalable with 10C/20T so the only possibilities should be 4114 / 4114T / 5115 with the same 85W TDP

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/123550/intel-xeon-silver-4114-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/126153/intel-xeon-silver-4114t-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/120484/intel-xeon-gold-5115-processor-13-75m-cache-2-40-ghz.html

 

Regarding VRM, "only" 7+1 phase for CPU and then 2 phase for DRAM

 

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/850609-asus-ws-c621e-sage/

 

We can't really match their RAM but at the very least we'll get something decent from Apacer.

 

They said it's all about "noise management" and therefore the chassis etc. must have played a really important role. Finally it might take quite a few excellent rails from the usual suspects to rival their PSU that should be hardwired internally.

 

It's kinda funny to read that similarly priced Aurender W20SE couldn't match SGM Extreme so it might take quite a bit of time and effort to beat the king

 

https://www.aurenderdirect.com/store/p2/W20SE.html

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596874

 

In the end maybe the motherboard itself doesn't have to be THAT special then? No matter what there will be switching regulators here and there

 

http://taikoaudio.com/products/sound-galleries-music-server/

Quote

Only the basic motherboard and CPU are off the shelf parts.

 

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47 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Just wanna quote some kind words as follows and kudos to Rajiv as usual

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596786

 

Speaking of SGM Extreme, they weren't shy about showing us what the motherboard is

 

https://avx.hu/forum/download/file.php?id=60828

qaXGmIG.jpg

 

https://www.asus.com/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-C621E-SAGE/

https://www.newegg.com/asus-ws-c621e-sage-dual-intel-socket-p-for-intel-xeon-scalable-processors-family/p/N82E16813119064

 

Processors were stated to be 1st gen Xeon Scalable with 10C/20T so the only possibilities should be 4114 / 4114T / 5115 with the same 85W TDP

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/123550/intel-xeon-silver-4114-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/126153/intel-xeon-silver-4114t-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/120484/intel-xeon-gold-5115-processor-13-75m-cache-2-40-ghz.html

 

Regarding VRM, "only" 7+1 phase for CPU and then 2 phase for DRAM

 

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/850609-asus-ws-c621e-sage/

 

We can't really match their RAM but at the very least we'll get something decent from Apacer.

 

They said it's all about "noise management" and therefore the chassis etc. must have played a really important role. Finally it might take quite a few excellent rails from the usual suspects to rival their PSU that should be hardwired internally.

 

It's kinda funny to read that similarly priced Aurender W20SE couldn't match SGM Extreme so it might take quite a bit of time and effort to beat the king

 

https://www.aurenderdirect.com/store/p2/W20SE.html

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596874

 

In the end maybe the motherboard itself doesn't have to be THAT special then? No matter what there will be switching regulators here and there

 

http://taikoaudio.com/products/sound-galleries-music-server/

 

Wow - what’s going on with the memory though, why so many banks?

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Configuration of 12 DIMMs - balanced and the best performance

https://lenovopress.com/lp0742.pdf#page=17

https://lenovopress.com/lp1089.pdf#page=17

 

Intel Xeon 6134 + One DIMM per channel or two DIMMs per channel for maximum memory bandwidth?

https://serverfault.com/questions/901383/intel-xeon-6134-one-dimm-per-channel-or-two-dimms-per-channel-for-maximum-memo/

 

using correct number of DIMMS for best memory performance Intel Xeon scalable cpu

https://serverfault.com/questions/893733/using-correct-number-of-dimms-for-best-memory-performance-intel-xeon-scalable-cp

 

Dunno which one is the way to go?

 

3 DIMMs per CPU (1 DIMM per channel)

6 DIMMs per CPU (2 DIMMs per channel)

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16 hours ago, RickyV said:

If you have two ram modules in use try removing one. So listen music, and after half an hour remove the second one ram module and listen again. Curious what you think.

 

Well i did try this, partly to see how easy it was to remove/insert RAM into my Porcoolpine NUC (it was easy), in preparation for a possible new RAM purchase. TBH, I wasn't expecting much from a change like this, and the difference was indeed incremental, but I did think there was an improvement in clarity and reduced smearing. I'm not going to do repeated A/B tests on this, so consider it a promising, rather than conclusive, result. I am, however, going to get that 4GB industrial strength Apacer based on these results.

 

15 hours ago, Aberrant-Decoder said:

Where would you library of music live?

 

With the basic ramroot function of Euphony, only the O/S filestore gets loaded into RAM, the music library stays on disc, but I also use the options to cache to Optane and furthermore each music file 100% buffered into RAM before play. And this works really well. There are further options to load everything into RAM, but that's best left for specific circumstances (e.g. endpoints) that don't apply to me. More info on the Euphony setup thread.

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9 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Farad Super12 should be a really welcome addition at 999 euro ex VAT and is something I'm watching since it's performance is reported to be close to that of an SR7.

 

I'm unaware of anyone who has heard a Farad Super12, much less compared one to an SR7.  What is basis for your comment?  Thanks.


 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

 

This is just a tip of the iceberg .

the main thing is softwere and the thred management .

roon and system for one bank of 6 RAMs and one processor .

jplay for other bank of  6 rams and other processor.

So it acts like 2 servers in one box.

also there are thausends things that are set in Motherboard management,

softwere setup, win 10 stripping, Registry setup, .

custom supply with Mundorf caps.

1G SFP card for network. Vibration management.

Lastly they did some discovery in regards to the clocking being able to set original motherboard clock to work better than the femtoclocks used by others.

 

Also being able to test thausends of options with other components they use ,

they have probably much more knolege than all of us together.

 

I personally did what you are doing for many many years and stopped.

I burned to much time for twicking 3 servers I had.  Could probably buy 5 Extreme servers if I would work that time that I was twicking things.

Ordering Extreme might give me a chance to focuse on music pleasure not on twicking everything I can.

 

What are you using for a server now?


 

 

 

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